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There's an easy way for BioWare to bring back some fans they may have lost


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#226
cJohnOne

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Qistina wrote...

Make the story longer and not scene by scene

In DA:O it still follow KotOR style, each places to visit have own story (Orzamar, Dalish, Circle Tower, Redcliff) and their own side quests

In DA2, hard to say, the story is only 3 in my opinion (Act 1-3), places to visit are just to kill kill kill die die die then return to base/Kirkwall

DA2 is shorter than DA:O

In DA:O when we go to new places it is kind of "refreshing", for example when we go to Orzamar (as non-Dwarf character) it is an "alien" place and it have its own story that not attached to what happening outside (the Blight and Civil War), so we surf into this new world, explore it and get involved in things.

So to make DA3 can be played 100+ hours i suggest maintain KotOR style travel to places but those places are BIG with their own cultures, story, quests and places to explore...not just one map or two like previous games

But there were 3 distinct acts in DA2 compared to 4 treaties(mage,elves, dwarves and redcliffe) than denerim.  Okay, You have a point there are a few more acts.Image IPB  But what is it 3 versus 5 or something.Image IPB
Well I lost my point along the way!Image IPB  You're right each place was different and refreshing, in my opinion.Image IPB

#227
Realmzmaster

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I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death. I want to be able to micro-manage my party. DAO and DA2? Balderdash! If I cannot have the game I want then make nightmare truly nightmarish with all the things I desire.

Bioware in the words of Captain Picard Make it so!
Remember Bioware listen only to me. No one else!

or to paraphrase the Outer Limits:

There is nothing wrong with your game. Do not attempt to adjust the game. I am controlling development. If I wish to have pera-death, there will bring perma-death. If I wish to have non-regenerating mana and health, I will make it so. I will control the horizontal. I will control the vertical. I can roll the image, make it flutter. I can change the focus of development. Until the game ships, sit quietly and I will control all that you create. I repeat: there is nothing wrong with your gamet. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to Realmzmaster's game.
(key evil laughter and ominous music).

#228
Fast Jimmy

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^

Perma death is... well, permanently dead. At least in a Bioware game. If they kill a companion, they are going to do it in a cinematic way for added effect.

I do agree on the magic and health regeneration systems. They really take all the intensity out of area exploration for me.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 mai 2013 - 10:55 .


#229
AlanC9

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Realmzmaster wrote...

I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death. 


How would you want perma-death to work? Like D&D but without any kind of resurrection spells?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 mai 2013 - 10:57 .


#230
argan1985

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The only way to get their "lost fans" back is to create a decent game.

#231
duckley

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I am not sure how many fans Bioware lost.
Having said that, I enjoy the creations that the tool kit offers, so much that I bought the PC version. If there is a toolkit, I will buy two versions - one for my PC and one for my PS3

#232
Solmanian

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ejoslin wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

I don't think bioware actually lost any potential customers. I can tell, because all the people that claim that bioware has "lost" them still sit around in the ME3 forums (more than a year after release) still telling people how they will never buy an EAware game.
It's like telling your GF that you want to break up but still not moving out just so you could tell her everyday how happy you are that you're not together.


Oh, I don't think the customers they lost would be here on the forums, though.  We're a very small number of people compared to overall players.  A few thousand at most.


Right, that means the other millions of players care even less. To them, it's like: "OK, it was a fun game but I didn't like the ending. What's next on the list?"

#233
Realmzmaster

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AlanC9 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death. 


How would you want perma-death to work? Like D&D but without any kind of resurrection spells?


Yes, I always thought the resurrection spell was a cope out. Now using a dead companion by rasing the dead would be interesting, The dead companion would be with the party but under the command of the wizard. If you had a cleric in the party the cleric would keep trying to lay it to rest.

#234
DarthCaine

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DAO sold well but not enough to profit well enough to justify it's nearly 6 year dev cycle. I think Stanley Woo once said they'll never make another game of that scope.

DA2 on the other hand was designed to be made in the shortest time with the least budget possible to capitalize on DAO's success which despite not achieving DAO's sales still makes the game more profitable. Seeing as many fans weren't pleased with DA2 they probably can't fool the fans twice, so DA3 will be a balance of both

#235
Nightdragon8

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ejoslin wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

I don't think bioware actually lost any potential customers. I can tell, because all the people that claim that bioware has "lost" them still sit around in the ME3 forums (more than a year after release) still telling people how they will never buy an EAware game.
It's like telling your GF that you want to break up but still not moving out just so you could tell her everyday how happy you are that you're not together.


Oh, I don't think the customers they lost would be here on the forums, though.  We're a very small number of people compared to overall players.  A few thousand at most.


yea they have a term for that sort of behavior... stalking...

#236
Sylvius the Mad

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AlanC9 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death.

How would you want perma-death to work? Like D&D but without any kind of resurrection spells?

I'd like that.

Obviously this would also require some changes to how combat works, particuarly with regard to how risk-averse the player can be in his approach to it.

#237
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'd like that.

Obviously this would also require some changes to how combat works, particuarly with regard to how risk-averse the player can be in his approach to it.


Wouldn't they also have to look at expanding the number of companions? A system that uses permadeath tends to give you more possible party members, yes?

Some at least. Hammer & Sickle didn't, but a quick look at the BG wiki shows over twenty companions in both games.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 19 mai 2013 - 02:54 .


#238
doomsteel

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BasilKarlo wrote...

It's no secret that DA][ didn't sell nearly as well as Origins and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the only way for Inquisition to match Origins' sales is to get back some of the fans they lost. Da][ was commonly viewed as "dumbed down" having borrowed ME2's philosophy of streamlining non-combat game mechanics. And since no toolkit was made available for DA][ options for fan-made content, an extremely popular feature for RPGs on PC, was severely limited in scope.
But they can do something about this. The PlayStation 4 and surely the NextBox are essentially PCs. This was sort of the case with the PS3 and the 360, but the PS4 is pretty much just a gaming PC. With that in mind, think about the possibilities of modding. 360 and PS3 games could already be modified using various programs on your PC and tranplanting their output to your console/s. BioWare could make a toolkit for PC and an interface for consoles for fans to mod all versions of Inquisition. I know there's interest in modding console games so the effort wouldn't go unnoticed.
What do you guys think?

They have to do something because we are going to spend BIG money on the various consoles and then spend even more money on what is potentially, a pretty crappy game! There rep suffered a pretty serious SMACK!  And why not eh? Hopefully they use some of the Gamer,s idea,s ( yours wasn't a bad one ) and not just the money saver one,s you know?...Boot licker idea,s are not  always the good ones

#239
Fast Jimmy

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Realmzmaster wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death. 


How would you want perma-death to work? Like D&D but without any kind of resurrection spells?


Yes, I always thought the resurrection spell was a cope out. Now using a dead companion by rasing the dead would be interesting, The dead companion would be with the party but under the command of the wizard. If you had a cleric in the party the cleric would keep trying to lay it to rest.

Heh! This actually sounds like more of a comedic situation. A cross between a Tim Burton film and Monty Python's "Bring Out Your Dead" skit. 

#240
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
I do agree on the magic and health regeneration systems. They really take all the intensity out of area exploration for me.


Why? What's intense about exploring things with consumables instead? It's just an arbitrary backtrack bar. 

#241
Fast Jimmy

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In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I do agree on the magic and health regeneration systems. They really take all the intensity out of area exploration for me.


Why? What's intense about exploring things with consumables instead? It's just an arbitrary backtrack bar. 


Because you can arguably fail? Having to go back to camp/town/what-have-you with your tail between your legs because you either under-prepared or over-estimated your party is a tough thing to swallow. Having your party magically heal itself every encounter means there is no sense of venturing far away from a "safe" area. EVERY area is a safe area, in that light.

Why NOT explore every nook, cranny and hallway in a game if you have no real fear of any combat? Other than complete boredom, of course. What was once a constant chance of failure is now just running around maps to collect loot... or not, honestly. Because if you re-heal after every fight, do you really need better equipment? Healing items? Gold? Not really. Chances are you'll find scrub equipment that will get you through every fight with a modicum of tactics and proper leveling. 

My completionist itch is fading with age. Mostly because it is less challenging to explore every inch of a game, making it seem less dangerous and exciting and, instead, more like a boring To Do list. I, personally, attribute that to these concepts of auto-healing, level scaling and the like. Making combat something you should never fear nor ever need to fully plan for. Because, after all, if you can't beat something that is your exact same level and where you both have full health, then you may want to just drop it down to Casual for a while. Because that's an option now, too.

#242
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There is a definite monetary value in having toolkits available for players, I bought Skyrim on Steam just to access the Creation Kit, even though I prefer playing on Xbox. I would surely do the same for DA3. Still, I do not expect this to ever be the case for DA3, as it seems like EA/DICE have no intention of making the FB tools available to players.

I also don't really mind too much. It is a great addition that adds a dynamic element to the community and game content, but I don't think it will win back any lost fans. Most lost fans are still fans, they are just angry and vindictive that they didn't get the amount of entertainment they were expecting with a previous title. So my solution would simply be for DA3 to be made as the best game ever. I think Bioware making another classic homerun RPG will do a lot more for reigniting people's love and fandom for Bioware than what a SDK could ever do.

Modifié par scyphozoa, 19 mai 2013 - 04:21 .


#243
Boycott Bioware

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cJohnOne wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Make the story longer and not scene by scene

In DA:O it still follow KotOR style, each places to visit have own story (Orzamar, Dalish, Circle Tower, Redcliff) and their own side quests

In DA2, hard to say, the story is only 3 in my opinion (Act 1-3), places to visit are just to kill kill kill die die die then return to base/Kirkwall

DA2 is shorter than DA:O

In DA:O when we go to new places it is kind of "refreshing", for example when we go to Orzamar (as non-Dwarf character) it is an "alien" place and it have its own story that not attached to what happening outside (the Blight and Civil War), so we surf into this new world, explore it and get involved in things.

So to make DA3 can be played 100+ hours i suggest maintain KotOR style travel to places but those places are BIG with their own cultures, story, quests and places to explore...not just one map or two like previous games

But there were 3 distinct acts in DA2 compared to 4 treaties(mage,elves, dwarves and redcliffe) than denerim.  Okay, You have a point there are a few more acts.Image IPB  But what is it 3 versus 5 or something.Image IPB
Well I lost my point along the way!Image IPB  You're right each place was different and refreshing, in my opinion.Image IPB


If it can be made, each places to visit are the size of Kirkwal and it's surrounding ( Kirkwal plus Wounded Coast, Deep Road, Sundermount, Bone Pit ect), so if there are 4 places to travel or visit, all 4 places are at this size.

Val Royoux and everything in Orlais as the main, other places are the same size

So we get better than Skyrim in size, story, things to do and places to explore. You see Skyrim is basically only one place, Skyrim, but my i dea is like Skyrim plus Cyrodill plus Daggerfall plus Hammerfell plus Morrowind size of map.... ^_^

Edit : It is not impossible, look at Diablo 2 where we travel across many places that are big maps each

Modifié par Qistina, 19 mai 2013 - 06:14 .


#244
Bleachrude

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I would point out that DA:O in terms of time length is somewhat misleading due to how its quests work and the lack of fast travel....

Many of the quests required you to hit several places in Ferelden but if you didn't have a guide, you quite literally could be hitting the same place 4 or 5 times in a row....throw in the ambushes and the lack of fast travel (you can't portal directly into any specific area) and the game will take longer.

I

#245
AlanC9

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Bleachrude wrote...

I would point out that DA:O in terms of time length is somewhat misleading due to how its quests work and the lack of fast travel....

Many of the quests required you to hit several places in Ferelden but if you didn't have a guide, you quite literally could be hitting the same place 4 or 5 times in a row....throw in the ambushes and the lack of fast travel (you can't portal directly into any specific area) and the game will take longer.


I've seen this in lots of RPGs. TW1 comes to mind.

#246
Bfler

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I would say more like BG1 & 2 or NWN. Bring back my ability to manage my party's health and mana. Enough of this regenerating health and mana. Bring back perma-death.

How would you want perma-death to work? Like D&D but without any kind of resurrection spells?

I'd like that.

Obviously this would also require some changes to how combat works, particuarly with regard to how risk-averse the player can be in his approach to it.


I would say in a story driven game like Dragon Age, perma-death would result in frustrating quicksave and quickload orgies. 
Dragon Age isn't Dark Souls where the main content is to defeat the enemies with trial and error.
It would have the opposite effect, because after the x-th reload many people would turn of the game and crush something than to further enjoy the game. 

Modifié par Bfler, 19 mai 2013 - 09:00 .


#247
AlanC9

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because you can arguably fail? Having to go back to camp/town/what-have-you with your tail between your legs because you either under-prepared or over-estimated your party is a tough thing to swallow.


I was about to talk about how the games don't actually play like this... but I think that might be irrelevant here. Sounds like you're talking about a feeling rather than how the games actually play. I don't get the feeling of  "with your tail between your legs" when my party has burned through its resources and goes back to camp for a bit; it's completely according to plan that we'll take five at some point. (I came up through PnP, and that's how the resource-management systems like D&D play; you set up a camp someplace near the complex you're sacking and retreat when spells get low).

And this is just silly:

 Because if you re-heal after every fight, do you really need better equipment? Healing items? Gold? Not really. Chances are you'll find scrub equipment that will get you through every fight with a modicum of tactics and proper leveling.


The combat encounters will be balanced according to the resource system that's actually in the game. Whatever the resource system is, the designer will make the combat as difficult as he feels like.

Unless you're saying that the value of resource-based gameplay is that it gives a player a way to handicap himself by deliberately mismanaging his expenditures? So if the designer makes encounters that you can beat without bothering to get good equipment, you fix things by running around with most spells exhausted?

#248
Fast Jimmy

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^

I would simply say there is no penalty for mismanaging resources. In DA2, gold ultra-plentiful, potions were dropped constantly if you actually used them, loot equipment off of enemies (such as 3-Star Ring) was level scaled and usually infinitely better than named or bought equipment... DA2 offered zero way, in my book, to fail in terms of resources.

I, too, grew up on PnP and old-school RPGs. And OF COURSE you get into the habit to go back to camp to regain your Vancian spells and double up on your supplies. Because if you didn't, you would face certain death and failure. Yet that thrill of being low, but not being "tapped out" on healing or spells, trying to make it just a little further or bolting as fast as you could to the exit... those were tense moments.

And why else would I suggest something except for how it would make the gamer feel? This is a form of entertainment... how you feel when playing the game is the whole point. If you feel bored exploring because your party is automatically healed and is just prepared to take down a gaggle of mooks five hours into a dungeon as they are five minutes, then it loses all sense of thrill, all sense of urgency. That "okay, here's another fork in the road... guess I'll go left. Oh, this leads into a much larger chamber that is likely the "right way" to keep progressing through the dungeon, so let me double back and go the other way to see if there is any loot/chests... oh! Random mook fight. Rah-rah-rah... Okay, moth eaten scarf in the chest... <sigh>... okay, back to the other room..."

It makes everything tedious. As opposed to "crap, I've been getting pummeled in this dungeon. I'm a little shaky on health and my healer's mana is starting to scrap the bottom. Fork in the road... going left. Ooooh, big room... should I go back to see if there is a chest? It might be risky... but it might be a mana potion, too. Okay... AHHHHH! Giant spiders! Evasive manuevers! Evasive maneuvers! Opening chest... WTF?!!! A moth-eaten scarf?! Curse you, level designer! You shall rue the day!"

To me, the enjoyment of success is only as bitter as the chance for failure. If the only way to fail is to have one really bad fight (at which point, you can just reload to right before the fight, anyway) then it makes fights arbitrarily hard or tedious. This was a big complaint for boss fights - that they were just huge HP bloats. The reason for this, in my mind, is that the encounter designer went into it knowing you would be at maximum health and mana. Give the Arishok a one-hit-kill move, usable at any time? Sure, why not. It's not like the player is going to be winded after fighting through an entire city of Qunari soldiers or anything.

I'd say those people who find resource management tedious are victims of poor encounter design. You can fall into the habit of using the exact same expedition prep tactics for every dungeon (sleep outside, stock up on healing and mana potions, only use spells in case of emergency) just like a game can have you fall into the same tactics in battle. Both are bad and can be mitigated. For instance, sleeping right outside a cave might result in being attacked while sleeping at a higher rate than could be found in "safer" areas. You could have special enemies/encounters which tried to steal or destroy your potion reserves (think gremlins in Ultima or the gnome thieves in the Golden Axe games). Or a dungeon were the enemies are highly resistant to physical damage and need the offense of spell casting in much more prevalent fashion, reducing the ability to use magic healing as a crutch.

Point being... if you feel a mechanic is unnecessarily frustrating, getting rid of it may wind up taking too much of the challenge away, resulting in overall boredom and possibly even further problems down the line. I feel that this is what was done with the Auto-Regen functions in RPG games. Too little risk, too much hand-holding.

#249
Deebo305

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In response to OP, why should Bioware wadte their time pandering to people who abandon them after one game or ending they disliked?

Also I'd really like to see this sales numbers you are referring to when you say DA2 didn't sale as well as Origins considering most games that undersale don't get sequels so please adds numbers if you make such a claim :(

#250
Fast Jimmy

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Deebo305 wrote...

In response to OP, why should Bioware wadte their time pandering to people who abandon them after one game or ending they disliked?

Also I'd really like to see this sales numbers you are referring to when you say DA2 didn't sale as well as Origins considering most games that undersale don't get sequels so please adds numbers if you make such a claim :(


Dragon Age Origins had an estimated 4.5 million units sold. DA2 was projected to meet or exceed that number. However, it wound up only selling a little over 2 million. SOURCE

The lack of truly verifiable numbers aside, it paints a pretty clear picture - DA2 did not sell nearly as well as many had hoped. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 mai 2013 - 11:21 .