575 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Rhazesx wrote...

I'm not sure why you used a game that is basically a AAA Advanced facebook game as an example. If your going to stretch that far you might as well went a little further and used Pong. Just because DA2 isn't a sandbox doesn't mean it shouldn't be modded. 

Crusader Kings is a pretty astonishingly amazing strategy game, and I find the reference to it being "basically a AAA Advanced Facebook game" to be an exceptional slight on the game.

It's a game that has fantastic replayability, combined with strategy and even roleplaying elements.  I would rather play a game like Crusader Kings than a game like Oblivion, because i enjoy it more.  It's why I own Crusader Kings 2, but not Skyrim (though I hear Skyrim is much better than Oblivion).

As reference, however, you could have also pointed out that Paradox's games are also typically highly moddable, so you actually missed out on a moment where you could have used his exampe against him.


The unfortunate thing about Skyrim, however, is that it's absurdly successful on the consoles as well, where modding is much, much more difficult to do (if even possible).  Skyrim's success could very well be more heavily influenced by the fact that it's a good game that delivered a lot on what people wanted.  I'd be surprised if its sales would not still be exceptional if the game didn't have a toolset.


Further, it's not like BioWare is a company that is completely clueless to toolset usage for games either.  Two games were released with a toolset (one with the core feature surrounding the toolset itself, even).

[Bfler]

Plaintiff wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think toolkits are nearly as popular as you make them out to be, and I've yet to see any proven correlation between a toolkit and improved sales of the base game on any platform.

Hell, most people on this forum who want a toolkit aren't even making that argument. Their position has always been that it "extends the life of the game", which isn't something a developer necessarily wants.

Toolkits dramatically increase the quality of the experience

... Which has nothing to do with what I said.

Whatever benefit they have only applies to a minority of the total player base anyway, so there's no reason to make developing one a priority.

On Nexus the most popular Skyrim mods have more than 1.7 million unique downloads. That's a minority of players?

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As reference, however, you could have also pointed out that Paradox's games are also typically highly moddable,

Mount&Blade, one of my favorite games, is the best example.

Modifié par Bfler, 25 mai 2013 - 06:03 .

[ArcaneJTM]

Bfler wrote...
On Nexus the most popular Skyrim mods have more than 1.7 million unique downloads. That's a minority of players?

When you consider it sold 3.5 million in the first two days and was well over 10 million a year ago, yeah, that is a minority of players.  That doesn't mean it's not worth developing toolkits though.  1.7 million is nothing to sneeze at.  Plus, as Allan mentioned, it's also on the console and still sells well, so it's not mods alone that make it successful.

BTW, I enjoyed both Oblivion and Skyrim, but Skyrim is deffinetly better.

[Allan Schumacher]

Mount and Blade isn't actually made by Paradox, though I'd still disagree. Paradox's data files have always just been simple text files. Alternative scenarios and historical accuracy improvement mods have been very common.

Having said that:

On Nexus the most popular Skyrim mods have more than 1.7 million unique downloads. That's a minority of players?

If we specifically look at total units sold (including both platforms), yes it is.

If not, then the numbers would seem to indicate that virtually 100% of the Skyrim PC players picked up the mod (based on numbers here -- which would be surprising unless Skyrim communicates Nexus updates (it might)

Given that 14% of the game's owners on Steam never even reached level 5, however, I'd be surprised if almost 100% of the people downloaded the top mod off of Skyrim. How does the Nexus determine a unique download? MAC Address? IP?

[Bfler]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Mount and Blade isn't actually made by Paradox, though I'd still disagree. Paradox's data files have always just been simple text files. Alternative scenarios and historical accuracy improvement mods have been very common.

Then you should state Paradox development studio, because the game is also published by Paradox. And about what do you disagree with me here?

And in case of Nexus it is the IP.

Modifié par Bfler, 25 mai 2013 - 07:04 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Allan Schumacher wrote..
. Skyrim's success could very well be more heavily influenced by the fact that it's a good game that delivered a lot on what people wanted. .

I disagree on this, totally disagree. Even old TES fans will disagree.

"The people" you mentioned here is who? Skyrim is not build based on what the people want but on what CERTAIN people want. The game is hyped, the old fans have been waiting for it for so long, and the advertisement is good, attracting new players, that boost it's sale.

But the game do not give what the real fans want. Surely you didn't hangout at Bethesda forum and seeing all those rages, and sure you don't even bother to read the fans blogs about Skyrim.

The modders only can enhanced the game, and so it not look so dull (and fixing the mess of bugs). The mods cannot give back spell making, levitation, mix match armor, and many more of what the people really want.

The one who praise Skyrim are new players who get attracted by the graphic, not the old fans. Now everything have cool down, Skyrim forum is not as hot as it was, just look at Skyrim forum now...the people have know what Skyrim really is

Modifié par Qistina, 25 mai 2013 - 07:10 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Bfler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Mount and Blade isn't actually made by Paradox, though I'd still disagree. Paradox's data files have always just been simple text files. Alternative scenarios and historical accuracy improvement mods have been very common.

Then you should state Paradox development studio, because the game is also published by Paradox. And about what do you disagree with me here?

And in case of Nexus it is the IP.

Given we were discussing a Paradox developed game (Crusader Kings II), I didn't think it was all that necessary.  As an owner of Mount and Blade original and Warband (And EU2, EU3, HOI2, HOI3, Vicky, Vicky II, and CK2... and that doesn't include the expansions), I am aware that Paradox publishes the game. 

My disagreement that Mount and Blade is their best example of allowing modding, on the grounds of "Paradox didn't make the game and hence isn't the primary influence on how moddable Mount and Blade is (I give Tale Worlds that credit)" as well as "Pretty much every game that Paradox has built going back to at least Europa Universalis 2 has not only been very easy to mod, but have had extensive mod communities complete with all sorts of extensive total conversions and the like."  In fact, I believe Gaider himself is heavily involved in some of the ones for Victoria 2 (though I haven't spoken with him about this, directly).  The earlier games are games that survived in large part because early releases were often exceptionally buggy, but their settings and style hit a note with many modders that they did a lot of modding to help stabilize a lot of the released design content.  They also did a ton of work to overcome perceived shortcomings with the game.

[Allan Schumacher]

I disagree on this, totally disagree. Even old TES fans will disagree.

"The people" you mentioned here is who? Skyrim is not build based on what the people want but on what CERTAIN people want. The game is hyped, the old fans have been waiting for it for so long, and the advertisement is good, attracting new players, that boost it's sale.

But the game do not give what the real fans want. Surely you didn't hangout at Bethesda forum and seeing all those rages, and sure you don't even bother to read the fans blogs about Skyrim.

The modders only can enhanced the game, and so it not look so dull (and fixing the mess of bugs). The mods cannot give back spell making, levitation, mix match armor, and many more of what the people really want.

Sorry, but that Skyrim may not have directly appealed to fans of earlier iterations doesn't mean that Skyrim doesn't, in large part, deliver on what many people that bought the game wanted out of the game.

Further, I loathe the notion of the "real fan." People that are fans of Skyrim are "real fans" of Skyrim. Sorry that it's not the game that you specifically wanted, but that doesn't do anything to undermine that Skyrim's success is in large part because it delivered a quality game that people wanted to buy.

If it was a case of many people feeling duped and cheated into buying something that they didn't actually want, it wouldn't be receiving so much positive attention from critics and gamers alike. I'm not saying that there aren't people that wholly hate Skyrim and feel the game is utter crap (whether compared to prior TES games or not), but those people will exist for almost any title, especially one that sells over 10 million units.

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I loathe the notion of the "real fan."

Particularly when the people calling themselves "true fans" or "real fans" almost certainly aren't representative of typical players, or people who engage with the game and its brand. It's frustrating when a tiny minority of the super hard-core think their worldview should be more privileged just because they're more vocal about it. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Sorry, but that Skyrim may not have directly appealed to fans of earlier iterations doesn't mean that Skyrim doesn't, in large part, deliver on what many people that bought the game wanted out of the game.

Further, I loathe the notion of the "real fan." People that are fans of Skyrim are "real fans" of Skyrim. Sorry that it's not the game that you specifically wanted, but that doesn't do anything to undermine that Skyrim's success is in large part because it delivered a quality game that people wanted to buy.

If it was a case of many people feeling duped and cheated into buying something that they didn't actually want, it wouldn't be receiving so much positive attention from critics and gamers alike. I'm not saying that there aren't people that wholly hate Skyrim and feel the game is utter crap (whether compared to prior TES games or not), but those people will exist for almost any title, especially one that sells over 10 million units.

I am a fan of Metallica and Joe Satriani, but i am not their real fans, i can enjoy Master of Puppets and Always With Me Always With You, i don't enjoy many of their other songs. So when i praising Master of Puppets by Metallica, does that represent Metallica is a successful band of all times? I may buy their latest album and not like it at all.

The real fans are the one who keep tack on those artists progress, who love their identity, loving their work. If Metallica suddenly changed into Linkin Park, or Joe Satriani becoming Justin Beiber, there will be terrorism attack and death threat everywhere

Do not simply ignoring the fact that there are real fans and fans

What makes Michael Jackson always popular with millions of fans around the world? He keep his identity, he attracted the new fans with his old identity, because when you say "Michael Jackson" everybody can imagine what kind of song he sang, how he dance, his types of music, old people and 8 years old, all know who is Michael Jackson. All races and peoples of all religion love him....Even though he have some issues in his career, his name never die....because Michael Jackson is Michael Jackson

Edit : speaking of Michael Jackson, even today you can see 8 years old Japanese "Michael Jackson", 10 years old Russian "Michael jackson" and so on around the world, they all love Michael Jackson, dance like him, sing like him, having his style, fashion and so on...who say you need to satisfy latest trend to attract youngsters for business?

Edit 2 : I enjoy "We are the World" long time ago when i was a kid, kids today sing the same song in the school for Children Day or any festivals. The singing contest such as "Whatever country Idol" or "This country have Talent" or whatever, there are many Michael Jackson imitators join in....

Modifié par Qistina, 25 mai 2013 - 09:01 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Okay, i don't know if you, mr Allan Schumacher, seeing the relevance of what i post above, i just stress out that what make real fans are real is the identity, what they love is your identity. Fans only love the current product, real fans love you as you were.

What is Dragon Age identity? To know what Dragon Age identity is by comparing with Dragon Age 2. I don't need to state everything, but some...one of it is the dialogue wheel. That thing is Mass Effect identity. You put in Dragon Age you have changed one of Dragon Age identity. So the fans of Dragon Age who love it as it were simply hate it.

Then you remove Origin background story, that is another one of Dragon Age identity. You may argue DA:Origin have it because it was DA:ORIGIN, oh so if ever in the future you make DA:Dwarf the player can only play as Dwarf? Origin story in DA:Origin only takes few minutes to complete, 95% of DA:Origin is not about the origin of the character at all.

Then you remove character and party members customization, another Dragon Age identity...one of the important one, the one that give replay value. Customization is one of the fun factor of DA:O that make the fans love it, but you remove it.

Then you remove multiple consequences of choices, another DA identity in which make it is a unique game compared with other games in the market. It give replay value, a fun factor, but you remove it.

Then you remove exploration and discovery, another important DA identity where the player exploring the map, going into new places with new problems and stories. DA:O is a big world, DA2 is a very small one.

Similar with Bethesda, they remove many things in Skyrim, it have less content than previous games. The buildings are less, characters are less, the meaningful quests are less, stories are less, spells are less, they also remove spell making the very thing that make magic is ridiculously fun. Skyrim is over simplified. Skyrim success is just because of the hype, good advertisement and real fans who have been waiting for it so long, but Bethesda give their middle finger to real fans, Skyrim is made for new generation who easily distracted by the graphic, old fans are to be their "sure get some early money from them" scheme

Edit : Most real fans of TES going back to Oblivion or even Morrowind affter Skyrim, because those games have the identity that make them loving TES before....

Modifié par Qistina, 25 mai 2013 - 10:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

Qistina wrote...
Skyrim success is just because of the hype, good advertisement and real fans who have been waiting for it so long, but Bethesda give their middle finger to real fans, Skyrim is made for new generation who easily distracted by the graphic, old fans are to be their "sure get some early money from them" scheme

Edit : Most real fans of TES going back to Oblivion or even Morrowind affter Skyrim, because those games have the identity that make them loving TES before....

How could you possibly know why it was successful, beyond asking all of the 10 million+ people who bought it? You're generalising about "the new generations" versus "old fans" with literally no data beyond your own dissatisfaction with what you assume to be the case.

I get that there's a discourse of "real fans" versus "other fans", whereby you prove your own credentials or self-worth in fandom by demeaning "other fans" who aren't as committed or don't share your perspective on the series - but it's incredibly unhelpful. The people you're calling "real fans" are a tiny proportion of the total number of people who play games. Always. They're people who hang out in forums and follow every bit of information about a game, often obsessively - but they're a minority. Game developers don't need to pander to you just because you're super-comitted to the series, and it'd be nonsensical - even impossible - as a business to do so. 

By insisting that "real" fans should be privileged above everyone else, you're also eliminating the millions of other people who legitimately engage with the series - but who stay silent about it, or enjoy it on their own terms rather than yelling from the rafters about how much of a fan they are. Skyrim was tremendously successful, particularly compared to previous games in the series, and to dismiss why they liked the game too is incredibly short-sighted. 

[Naitaka]

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but what are people's thought on Neverwinter (The Cryptic F2P MMO)'s approach to user created contents? It's much more limited than modding in the traditional sense in that all your asset must already exist in the game itself, however, it also provide the advantage of being fully integrated into the game itself and having all the user generated contents server side which would mean the model can very well work on console. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for a full feature toolset but seeing as it's probably not going to happen, this seem like a great alternative to allow people to put out contents for the game, hell, it'll even justify always online for the game by actually providing significant benefit/service to the players.

[Shaigunjoe]

Naitaka wrote...

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but what are people's thought on Neverwinter (The Cryptic F2P MMO)'s approach to user created contents? It's much more limited than modding in the traditional sense in that all your asset must already exist in the game itself, however, it also provide the advantage of being fully integrated into the game itself and having all the user generated contents server side which would mean the model can very well work on console. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for a full feature toolset but seeing as it's probably not going to happen, this seem like a great alternative to allow people to put out contents for the game, hell, it'll even justify always online for the game by actually providing significant benefit/service to the players.

That is also similiar to how infamous 2 did user generated content, it was more integrated into the game experience.

However, I would stop far short of calling it justification for always online.  No reason you couldn't connect only when you wanted to for user generated content.

[Boycott Bioware]

ElitePinecone wrote...
How could you possibly know why it was successful, beyond asking all of the 10 million+ people who bought it? You're generalising about "the new generations" versus "old fans" with literally no data beyond your own dissatisfaction with what you assume to be the case.

Same argument, you claim those 10+ millions buyers love the game, 10+ millions are just numbers, do you really ask all of them if they really like the game or not? Do you ask them how many times they play? Do you ask them do they finish the game at least the main quest?

No, you just assume the 10+ millions is the measuring stick to Bethesda success, peoples nowadays look on sales. If rotten apples being colored look like good apples it can sell, but do the provider will get the same trust in the future?

If Metallica changed their identity from metal music to K Pop or Gangnam and the album cover maintain metal-ish nature, they still can sell, the first day of their album release will sell over millions, is that a success? Yes, they success in selling the Gangnam album to millions but the real fans could shoot them on stage, while their fans could love the new album. Metallica must maintain their genre, they cannot transform from metal to K Pop just to satisfy the market

Skyrim success is like what i mention above, the real fans expected the game, they buy in on first release at 11.11.11 but then...? The new buyers/fans who praise it, they don't even play Oblivion or Morrowind to make comparison, they love Skyrim, they just love Skyrim...they are fans of Skyrim but not real fans of TES

Now...are we a fan of Dragon Age series, Dragon Age : Origin, Dragon Age 2 or Bioware?

The real fans are the one who love the original Bioware products, expect the following products maintain the identity of previous one and the identity of the developer. Fans are the one who love the current product.

Same like Metallica...the real fans are the one who love Metallica original identity, expecting Metallica will always be Metallica in all their albums. While fans are the one who enjoy the current Metallica no matter if it is no longer Metallica original identity.

[Joy Divison]

Qistina wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote..
. Skyrim's success could very well be more heavily influenced by the fact that it's a good game that delivered a lot on what people wanted. .

I disagree on this, totally disagree. Even old TES fans will disagree.

"The people" you mentioned here is who? Skyrim is not build based on what the people want but on what CERTAIN people want. The game is hyped, the old fans have been waiting for it for so long, and the advertisement is good, attracting new players, that boost it's sale.

But the game do not give what the real fans want. Surely you didn't hangout at Bethesda forum and seeing all those rages, and sure you don't even bother to read the fans blogs about Skyrim.

The modders only can enhanced the game, and so it not look so dull (and fixing the mess of bugs). The mods cannot give back spell making, levitation, mix match armor, and many more of what the people really want.

The one who praise Skyrim are new players who get attracted by the graphic, not the old fans. Now everything have cool down, Skyrim forum is not as hot as it was, just look at Skyrim forum now...the people have know what Skyrim really is

This has got to be the silliest post I've seen in a while.

[Joy Divison]

Qistina wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
How could you possibly know why it was successful, beyond asking all of the 10 million+ people who bought it? You're generalising about "the new generations" versus "old fans" with literally no data beyond your own dissatisfaction with what you assume to be the case.

Same argument, you claim those 10+ millions buyers love the game, 10+ millions are just numbers, do you really ask all of them if they really like the game or not? Do you ask them how many times they play? Do you ask them do they finish the game at least the main quest?

No, you just assume the 10+ millions is the measuring stick to Bethesda success, peoples nowadays look on sales. If rotten apples being colored look like good apples it can sell, but do the provider will get the same trust in the future?

If Metallica changed their identity from metal music to K Pop or Gangnam and the album cover maintain metal-ish nature, they still can sell, the first day of their album release will sell over millions, is that a success? Yes, they success in selling the Gangnam album to millions but the real fans could shoot them on stage, while their fans could love the new album. Metallica must maintain their genre, they cannot transform from metal to K Pop just to satisfy the market

Skyrim success is like what i mention above, the real fans expected the game, they buy in on first release at 11.11.11 but then...? The new buyers/fans who praise it, they don't even play Oblivion or Morrowind to make comparison, they love Skyrim, they just love Skyrim...they are fans of Skyrim but not real fans of TES

Now...are we a fan of Dragon Age series, Dragon Age : Origin, Dragon Age 2 or Bioware?

The real fans are the one who love the original Bioware products, expect the following products maintain the identity of previous one and the identity of the developer. Fans are the one who love the current product.

Same like Metallica...the real fans are the one who love Metallica original identity, expecting Metallica will always be Metallica in all their albums. While fans are the one who enjoy the current Metallica no matter if it is no longer Metallica original identity.

Actually this is sillier.  Your notion of a "real" fan is absurd.

[Naitaka]

Joy Divison wrote...

Qistina wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
How could you possibly know why it was successful, beyond asking all of the 10 million+ people who bought it? You're generalising about "the new generations" versus "old fans" with literally no data beyond your own dissatisfaction with what you assume to be the case.

Same argument, you claim those 10+ millions buyers love the game, 10+ millions are just numbers, do you really ask all of them if they really like the game or not? Do you ask them how many times they play? Do you ask them do they finish the game at least the main quest?

No, you just assume the 10+ millions is the measuring stick to Bethesda success, peoples nowadays look on sales. If rotten apples being colored look like good apples it can sell, but do the provider will get the same trust in the future?

If Metallica changed their identity from metal music to K Pop or Gangnam and the album cover maintain metal-ish nature, they still can sell, the first day of their album release will sell over millions, is that a success? Yes, they success in selling the Gangnam album to millions but the real fans could shoot them on stage, while their fans could love the new album. Metallica must maintain their genre, they cannot transform from metal to K Pop just to satisfy the market

Skyrim success is like what i mention above, the real fans expected the game, they buy in on first release at 11.11.11 but then...? The new buyers/fans who praise it, they don't even play Oblivion or Morrowind to make comparison, they love Skyrim, they just love Skyrim...they are fans of Skyrim but not real fans of TES

Now...are we a fan of Dragon Age series, Dragon Age : Origin, Dragon Age 2 or Bioware?

The real fans are the one who love the original Bioware products, expect the following products maintain the identity of previous one and the identity of the developer. Fans are the one who love the current product.

Same like Metallica...the real fans are the one who love Metallica original identity, expecting Metallica will always be Metallica in all their albums. While fans are the one who enjoy the current Metallica no matter if it is no longer Metallica original identity.

Actually this is sillier.  Your notion of a "real" fan is absurd.

Actually, what he's describing isn't that uncommon, it's just the phrasing he used is...well badly chosen. It comes down to the difference between people who liked a specific type of game Bioware has produced in the past and people who are fans of the Bioware brand and what it represents. Of course, Bioware has no obligation to make the same type of games as they used to in the 90s even though Dragon Age Origin is very much that at its core. However, Bioware does have the obligation to not misinform their customers, which I think some people, including myself, thought they, whether intentionally or not, did with the hype and promises they made prior to the release of Dragon Age 2 and to an extend, ME3.

Modifié par Naitaka, 25 mai 2013 - 05:06 .

[Joy Divison]

Naitaka wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Qistina wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
How could you possibly know why it was successful, beyond asking all of the 10 million+ people who bought it? You're generalising about "the new generations" versus "old fans" with literally no data beyond your own dissatisfaction with what you assume to be the case.

Same argument, you claim those 10+ millions buyers love the game, 10+ millions are just numbers, do you really ask all of them if they really like the game or not? Do you ask them how many times they play? Do you ask them do they finish the game at least the main quest?

No, you just assume the 10+ millions is the measuring stick to Bethesda success, peoples nowadays look on sales. If rotten apples being colored look like good apples it can sell, but do the provider will get the same trust in the future?

If Metallica changed their identity from metal music to K Pop or Gangnam and the album cover maintain metal-ish nature, they still can sell, the first day of their album release will sell over millions, is that a success? Yes, they success in selling the Gangnam album to millions but the real fans could shoot them on stage, while their fans could love the new album. Metallica must maintain their genre, they cannot transform from metal to K Pop just to satisfy the market

Skyrim success is like what i mention above, the real fans expected the game, they buy in on first release at 11.11.11 but then...? The new buyers/fans who praise it, they don't even play Oblivion or Morrowind to make comparison, they love Skyrim, they just love Skyrim...they are fans of Skyrim but not real fans of TES

Now...are we a fan of Dragon Age series, Dragon Age : Origin, Dragon Age 2 or Bioware?

The real fans are the one who love the original Bioware products, expect the following products maintain the identity of previous one and the identity of the developer. Fans are the one who love the current product.

Same like Metallica...the real fans are the one who love Metallica original identity, expecting Metallica will always be Metallica in all their albums. While fans are the one who enjoy the current Metallica no matter if it is no longer Metallica original identity.

Actually this is sillier.  Your notion of a "real" fan is absurd.

Actually, what he's describing isn't that uncommon, it's just the phrasing he used is...well badly chosen. It comes down to the difference between people who liked a specific type of game Bioware has produced in the past and people who are fans of the Bioware brand and what it represents. Of course, Bioware has no obligation to make the same type of games as they used to in the 90s even though Dragon Age Origin is very much that at its core. However, Bioware does have the obligation to not misinform their customers, which I think some people, including myself, thought they, whether intentionally or not, did with the hype and promises they made prior to the release of Dragon Age 2 and to an extend, ME3.

No, actually what s/he is describing is nonsensical.  Just because I don't like Kill Them All does not mean I'm not a "real' fan of Metallica.

What exactly is "real" Metallica anyway?  James Hetfield and Lars Ulrich are not the 19 year old kids who made Kill Them All.  Christ they're FIFTY years old now...and so are those "real" fans.  Are you the same person that you were 30 years ago?  I hope to hell not.

Who the heck is Qistina to annoit anyone a "real" fan of Bioware because they like a particular subset of their games?  Look, I really didn't like DA2 and much prefer their older titles, but I don't have the audacity to claim that I'm somehow more of a "real" fan.  And who is she to claim I can't be a "real" fan of TES because I love Skyrim and think Oblivion blows?  Why is Morrowind the watershed for "real" TES when it is the 3rd major title in the series?  By that logic, isn't the Black Album "real" Metallica?

Yeah, no kidding Bioware shouldn't misinform their customers.  That was not Qistina's post.  And I'm not sure how misinformed I was about DA2.  In hindsight, it was more a case of ME believing what I wanted to believe more than being misinformed.  I knew of practically all of the fundamental changes that were implemented in the game and actually experienced them firsthand in the demo before I purchased it and *hoped* I would nevertheless like it.

[AlanC9]

Qistina wrote...
Okay, i don't know if you, mr Allan Schumacher, seeing the relevance of what i post above, i just stress out that what make real fans are real is the identity, what they love is your identity. Fans only love the current product, real fans love you as you were.

So a "real fan" is someone who likes some particular game in a series and doesn't like the later ones if they're any different? Or if they're different in a way he doesn't like?

So a real BG fan thinks that BG2's overland map is a bad idea, for instance? Well, I have read this sort of thing a lot.

[AlanC9]

Joy Divison wrote...


Who the heck is Qistina to annoit anyone a "real" fan of Bioware because they like a particular subset of their games?  Look, I really didn't like DA2 and much prefer their older titles, but I don't have the audacity to claim that I'm somehow more of a "real" fan.  And who is she to claim I can't be a "real" fan of TES because I love Skyrim and think Oblivion blows?  Why is Morrowind the watershed for "real" TES when it is the 3rd major title in the series?  By that logic, isn't the Black Album "real" Metallica?

I'm guessing it's half-baked Platonism. There's some sort of true essence of a TES game, a Metallica song, etc., and the "real fans" are the ones who understand those Forms and can determine whether a game deviates from them.

[ArcaneJTM]

So, a question for you Qistina.  I've played Morrowind and greatly enjoyed it.  Also played Oblivion and enjoyed it.  Played Skyrim and enjoyed it as well.  I may have even played Daggerfall or Arena if one of them is the one I'm thinking of.  Don't remember for sure because it's been some time.

Am I not a "real fan", or do I specifically have to hate Skryim for that?

Qistina wrote...

Same argument, you claim those 10+ millions buyers love the game, 10+ millions are just numbers, do you really ask all of them if they really like the game or not? Do you ask them how many times they play? Do you ask them do they finish the game at least the main quest?

"Finish the game" is hard to define in an elder scrolls game like Skyrim.  However, there are other things we can look at.

Steam figures:

62% reached level 25.

36% finished Dragonslayer.  (Last main quest)

66% bought a house.

50% joined a side in the civil war.

75 hours average play time.

almost 16,000 mods in the steam workshop (that doesn't include what is on Nexus that isn't in the workshop)

This is just on the PC.  I'm not sure about stats on consoles, but I expect them to be fairly similar aside from the mods.

[Realmzmaster]

10 plus millions is just numbers? That is correct it represents the number of people who bought the game. That number generates the profit that allows Bethesda to keep making TES games and stay in existence. The number of TES games sold keeps growing with each release from Arena to Skyrim. So the assumption that can be drawn is that somebody likes playing that type of game.

I have not bought Skyrim because I really thought Oblivion was mediocre. The Oblivion towers made the re-used area in DA2 seem like a welcomed relief! Once Skyrim reaches $20 or under then I will probably take the chance . The only reason I bought Oblivion was because I really liked Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind. Other gamers liked Oblivion. Does that make them less of a fan than me? Of course not!

I did like Kingdoms of Amalur (whose executive producer was Ken Rolston. KenRolston was lead designer for Morrowind and Oblivion). I did not buy it until it was under $20. If I feel I have to take a chance on a game that is my price point.

I have no idea what a real fan is? If a company is going to bring new blood into the genre then it has to make a game that appeals both to that new audience while retaining the audience it already has. That is never an easy task. Bethesda pulled it off with Skyrim.

Bioware tried and according to many gamers failed with DA2. Hopefully DA3 will be the game that is the breakthrough for Bioware. Just appealing to the old audience is not going to work alone. There is a limited number of sales in that audience. That audience may be able to sustain a kickstarter project or a smaller independent, but not a division the size of Bioware. Numbers generate profit. Without profit no company.

I also do not care about the evil EA. EA is a company that runs on profit. The best way to get its attention is through the pocketbook. All companies listen to their bottomline.

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have no idea what a real fan is? If a company is going to bring new blood into the genre then it has to make a game that appeals both to that new audience while retaining the audience it already has. That is never an easy task. Bethesda pulled it off with Skyrim.

Bioware tried and according to many gamers failed with DA2. Hopefully DA3 will be the game that is the breakthrough for Bioware. Just appealing to the old audience is not going to work alone. There is a limited number of sales in that audience. That audience may be able to sustain a kickstarter project or a smaller independent, but not a division the size of Bioware. Numbers generate profit. Without profit no company. 

I do not believe in this.
You can't increase your sales by changing a game to "also appeal to a new, different audience". I'm completely convinced that sort of reasoning is absolute nonsense.

What the big selling franchises, like Call of Duty, and TES,  have done, is not that at all. They have increased their audience by letting more people discover them. It's that simple.

DA2 failed to do the same for Dragon Age because it's no longer the same kind of game. There's a lot that has changed. Art direction, player agency, player char agency, mood and atmosphere, linearity, style of combat and animations, party customization, character customization, emergent narrative being replaced by framed narrative. In DA2 the player watches the PC's actions, emotions and reactions, in DA:O the player controls it. Basically, a WRPG has become a JRPG.

A lot of differenses that make it a completely different game-genre. Why would it appeal to all old fans? No reason. More likely that a lot will be angry because the franchise they liked has been corrupted to something they may even despise.