575 réponses à ce sujet

[Conduit0]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Homebound wrote...

you cant unboil an egg. Bioware needs to accept that this is where they are now instead of trying to restore whats already lost.

I'll concede that you can't unboil an egg.  But I don't see how RPGs are like eggs in this context.

I believe Homebound was refering back to the threads original purpose, winning back lost fans. Although the analogy is a little shaky, I agree with it. Purposely trying to win back fans is a sure fire way to fail, simply because theres no consensus on what will actually win them back. The only thing you can do is make the best game you can and hope thats enough to win over old fans and new ones alike.

[Realmzmaster]

Rawgrim wrote...

The animemanga artstyle gives them away.

As opposed to what artstyle? I can only assume you have never read Lone wolf and Cub, The way of the Assassin or Samurai Executioner.    I guess you did not watch the Wolervine, Ironman, Blade or X-Men animation that was developed in Japan by Madhouse for Marvel. The setting was Japan for each of the series (12 episodes for each series).  

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

JCRPGS and WCRPGS are meaningless definitions created to try and define certain aspects of the nebulous genre known as the CRPG that has never had a strong definition itself.

A more accurate description may be country of origin (since crpgs are now made in South Korea and China) and even then both genres have plenty of examples of high-profile games that do not meet common stereotypes of their respective sub-genre.

For example Demon Souls is categorized as a Western style action RPG even though its country of origin is Japan. Also the whole King's Field series was considered Western-style.

Now the games do have a set protagonist, but so does Alpha Protocol and the Witcher 1 & 2. A set protagonist alone cannot make a game jrpg. The game is FP with action. Well the Elder Scroll series has that.
Maybe it is turn based combat, but then some of the early western style crpgs had that while the early Japanese style crpgs were action based. Many newer Japanese crpg are not turn based.

So the only real definition that exists are nebulous at best and based on what gamers feel consist the attributes of each sub genre. So the terms are becoming meaningless IMHO.

I think you're completely wrong.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to make a distinction between games that are made in Japan or the West, because of their origin. That would just be outright pointless. Language does not live with meaninglessness. Terms spring into existence because a group of people have the need for it, to communicate something in an abbreviated manner.

Some people are obviously blind to the differences. So much is quite clear from this discussion (and has also earlier been made abundantly clear, through grueling months of quarreling over DA2).
If you are blind to the difference, it might well be immediate to assume that the labels concern country of origin. But if you contemplate that angle for awhile, you'll soon realize that it's total nonsense.

LincsOcarina is right, - from that perspective. If the labels were about origin, which he assumes and insist, they would be meaningless and shouldn't exist. But neither would they, in that case. Unlike what some seem to imagine, words are not constructed and defined absolute by some elected body. Language is a living thing that constantly changes and evolves between those who use it. The language itself defines the meaning. And redefines the meaning.

For those standing outside (because of blindness to the distinction, maybe), not involved in the language process which evolves a term, the meaning is perhaps less clear. It's not I who am using the terms inconsistently, it's AlanC9 who has lived with false assumptions. It's not I who have made my "definition" of JRPG. It's the word's usage itself.

The one thing you are right about, is that the meaning of the word is nebulous, and depends on how the community uses it. Likely, as Japan starts to make more WRPGs, and more JRPGs are made in the West, and as games which do not belong to either category (as I expect DA3 will be) are made, there will be some confusion, and nobody can say what will happen to the terms over time. But you have to understand that neither you, LincsOcarina, AlanC9 or In Exile, really belongs to that community. Because you have no need for these terms. New terms spring into existence and usage in communities which need them.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 28 mai 2013 - 09:57 .

[Rawgrim]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The animemanga artstyle gives them away.

As opposed to what artstyle? I can only assume you have never read Lone wolf and Cub, The way of the Assassin or Samurai Executioner.    I guess you did not watch the Wolervine, Ironman, Blade or X-Men animation that was developed in Japan by Madhouse for Marvel. The setting was Japan for each of the series (12 episodes for each series).  

I don`t watch cartoons. Sorry.

[Boycott Bioware]

Actually DA2 is Chinese style, not Japanese...the ordinary sword both in DA:O and DA2 is a Chinese sword. The art style of DA is Chinese.

Only that in DA2 it is more apparent. many westerners thought it is Japanese style, it is actually Chinese.

look at female Hawke in game, she look like a Chinese mix with western woman, the way she carry that oversize sword is Chinese warlord style. In fact she look like Bruce Lee with boobs.

The dual wield combat animation is Jeet Kune Do style. the way mages casting their spells is the way Qi Gong masters doing their thing, especially the enemy mages.

Fenris is Chinese guy, not Japanese. Arishok do look like Japanese but the art style is Chinese.

[LinksOcarina]

bEVEsthda wrote...

LincsOcarina is right, - from that perspective. If the labels were about origin, which he assumes and insist, they would be meaningless and shouldn't exist. But neither would they, in that case. Unlike what some seem to imagine, words are not constructed and defined absolute by some elected body. Language is a living thing that constantly changes and evolves between those who use it. The language itself defines the meaning. And redefines the meaning.

For those standing outside (because of blindness to the distinction, maybe), not involved in the language process which evolves a term, the meaning is perhaps less clear. It's not I who am using the terms inconsistently, it's AlanC9 who has lived with false assumptions. It's not I who have made my "definition" of JRPG. It's the word's usage itself.

The one thing you are right about, is that the meaning of the word is nebulous, and depends on how the community uses it. Likely, as Japan starts to make more WRPGs, and more JRPGs are made in the West, and as games which do not belong to either category (as I expect DA3 will be) are made, there will be some confusion, and nobody can say what will happen to the terms over time. But you have to understand that neither you, LincsOcarina, AlanC9 or In Exile, really belongs to that community. Because you have no need for these terms. New terms spring into existence and usage in communities which need them.

Stop with the passive-agressive replies please, it is starting to annoy me.

Also, when did I ever say country of origin in this discussion, or assume such a position here? 

And to that end, how do we know you are not privy to the current definition of the term? Truth be told, so far you and Rawgrim are the only two people I know who call Dragon Age II a "JRPG", which I don't find strange, other than the insistance that you are corret in your personal definition being universal.

But as I said before, there is no definition, no concrete one at least, which makes the terms subjective to taste and the criteria we assign to it. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 28 mai 2013 - 04:26 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

anime and cartoons are not the same thing. Anyway on topic I don't think bioware really cares about winning back some fans. they just want to make a larger fanbase by any means possible.

[Boycott Bioware]

There are differences between Chinese and Japanese art. Look at the strokes and mood. Chinese strokes are more aggressive, Japanese is softer. Chinese style is rich and detail, while Japanese style simplified, it is because Japanese following Zen philosophy in everything.

Then look at culture, for example fashion design, both DA:O and DA2 following Chinese custom in fashion designing. The robes look like Cheongsam. You guys know Cheongsam? just google it, then compare with Mages robes.

Japanese fashion is different, they have less stitches, i mean large part of the cloth is like jacket, you must use buckles to tie everything up. The example is like Karate uniform. Star Wars Jedis use this style in their fashion designing.

Then the colors...DA2 is rich with red color it is because the Chinese like red color, it give luck. The Qunari are red, Champion armors are red, most of the things are red. Red is Chinese favorite color, if you guys go to China you guys see red.

[ArcaneJTM]

Er, Chinese v.s. Japanese? Does that really matter? "JRPG" and "WRPG" refers to the style of RP and POV that has been traditionally developed in each region. Not what country the main character looks like he might be from.

[LinksOcarina]

Qistina wrote...

There are differences between Chinese and Japanese art. Look at the strokes and mood. Chinese strokes are more aggressive, Japanese is softer. Chinese style is rich and detail, while Japanese style simplified, it is because Japanese following Zen philosophy in everything.

Then look at culture, for example fashion design, both DA:O and DA2 following Chinese custom in fashion designing. The robes look like Cheongsam. You guys know Cheongsam? just google it, then compare with Mages robes.

Japanese fashion is different, they have less stitches, i mean large part of the cloth is like jacket, you must use buckles to tie everything up. The example is like Karate uniform. Star Wars Jedis use this style in their fashion designing.

Then the colors...DA2 is rich with red color it is because the Chinese like red color, it give luck. The Qunari are red, Champion armors are red, most of the things are red. Red is Chinese favorite color, if you guys go to China you guys see red.

As someone who wrote a master thesis on China, and has been studying Asian history for years now...this is a bit far-fetched. 


For one, Qipao attire (or Cheongasm)  are designed to be constraining, body tight, if you will. It is also a modern garnment for the upper class since the early 20th century. Previous generations had iterations of style and dress similar to the modern depictions though, but are stylistically different, and usually not in the color red.

[Boycott Bioware]

For one, Qipao attire (or Cheongasm) are designed to be constraining, body tight, if you will.

yes, DA version of Cheongsam is long version and not sexy, they just make the sleeve long and cover the legs

But in DA2 there are short version ones, you can buy at the Gallow, the version where there is no sleeve

edit : oh yes, the Tevinter mage robes in DA:O are Cheongsam, they only give different decorations

Modifié par Qistina, 28 mai 2013 - 06:07 .

[AlanC9]

bEVEsthda wrote...
For those standing outside (because of blindness to the distinction, maybe), not involved in the language process which evolves a term, the meaning is perhaps less clear. It's not I who am using the terms inconsistently, it's AlanC9 who has lived with false assumptions. It's not I who have made my "definition" of JRPG. It's the word's usage itself.

So you're saying that everybody who uses the JRPG term agrees with your definition? That hasn't been my experience. Calling DA2 a JRPG on these boards has always been a way to start an argument rather than get a lot of people to agree with you

I'm still looking for the rules for determining whether something is or isn't a JRPG. So far we're playing bEVEthesda Says.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[Rawgrim]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t watch cartoons. Sorry.

You know what? I don't really like anime. I don't care for the art style. But you don't even know what you're talking about. How can you call DA ][ something you don't even know, and pretend that people will take you seriously?

I don't mind saying DA ]['s combat looks like FF combat, because I know what FF combat looks like. If I didn't, however, I'd be talking out of my piehole--like your statement.

I was talking about jrpgs in general, not Dragon Age. Sorry you got confused.

[Realmzmaster]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

anime and cartoons are not the same thing. Anyway on topic I don't think bioware really cares about winning back some fans. they just want to make a larger fanbase by any means possible.

According to this article www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php anime in Japan refers to any and all animation or cartoon regardless of genre, style or nation of origin. Therefore in Japan Bugs Bunny or Disney's Snow White is anime.

Outside of Japan anime is use to refer to specific animation of Japanese origin.

[LinksOcarina]

Qistina wrote...

For one, Qipao attire (or Cheongasm) are designed to be constraining, body tight, if you will.

yes, DA version of Cheongsam is long version and not sexy, they just make the sleeve long and cover the legs

But in DA2 there are short version ones, you can buy at the Gallow, the version where there is no sleeve

edit : oh yes, the Tevinter mage robes in DA:O are Cheongsam, they only give different decorations

This is way off topic but could you PM me pictures of what you mean, I don't remember that being a part of the design. 

[Shaigunjoe]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

anime and cartoons are not the same thing. Anyway on topic I don't think bioware really cares about winning back some fans. they just want to make a larger fanbase by any means possible.

This is quite possibly true.  They are certainly more profit driven now, however because of that, they can put more bells and whistles on their games.

Look at the "success" of both obsidian and inexile in kickstarter.  Yes, they got funded, but the amount of money the recieved would be considered a failure in the triple A world.  This also means that the new games would lack a lot of bells and whistles, such as voice acting, and it remains to be seen what exactly the final product will be (though knowing obsedian, it will lack on polish).

Ultimatly, I just don't think there is a large enough fan base to support 40+ hour RPGs in the triple A world.

[Boycott Bioware]

This is way off topic but could you PM me pictures of what you mean, I don't remember that being a part of the design.

Just play the game and then compare the Mage robes with Cheongsam. the basic design is Cheongsam, Tevinter Mage robes are apparently, in Circle Mage robe they just ad long sleeve and blouse

DA art designers are Chinese, just look at the credit

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

This is way off topic but could you PM me pictures of what you mean, I don't remember that being a part of the design.

Just play the game and then compare the Mage robes with Cheongsam. the basic design is Cheongsam, Tevinter Mage robes are apparently, in Circle Mage robe they just ad long sleeve and blouse

DA art designers are Chinese, just look at the credit

The concept artists were Ben Huen, Bille Kinnunen, Steve Klit, Casper Konefal, Matt Rhodes. Ramil Sunga and Nick Thornborrow.

[Boycott Bioware]

The concept artists were Ben Huen, Bille Kinnunen, Steve Klit, Casper Konefal, Matt Rhodes. Ramil Sunga and Nick Thornborrow.

Tyler Lee, Kevin Ng, Jacky Xuan, Harvey Fong, Sung Kim, Steeve Lam, Michel Liaw, Leroy Chen.......

You only mention a part of them...how about these artists above, they are not Chinese?

[addiction21]

Qistina wrote...

The concept artists were Ben Huen, Bille Kinnunen, Steve Klit, Casper Konefal, Matt Rhodes. Ramil Sunga and Nick Thornborrow.

Tyler Lee, Kevin Ng, Jacky Xuan, Harvey Fong, Sung Kim, Steeve Lam, Michel Liaw, Leroy Chen.......

You only mention a part of them...how about these artists above, they are not Chinese?

They have Asian names so they must be Chinese. Flawless logic.

[AlanC9]

Qistina wrote...


Tyler Lee, Kevin Ng, Jacky Xuan, Harvey Fong, Sung Kim, Steeve Lam, Michel Liaw, Leroy Chen.......

You only mention a part of them...how about these artists above, they are not Chinese?

One's a GUI artist, two are technical animators, one's a visual effects artist, one's a producer.... and I'm not sure those are all Chinese surnames anyway.

[Boycott Bioware]

Do you see them in DA:O Art department?

[RaenImrahl]

The ethnicity of the art team is not relevant. Many talented arts are capable of borrowing styles from a variety of cultures. Please get this topic back on track, or it will be locked. Thanks.