575 réponses à ce sujet

[wrdnshprd]

I agree modding would be great. what would be better is if they did the following:

no day 1 DLC

pre-order bonuses that are cosmetic focused and not stat heavy (not saying DAII did this, but it's still a way to generate some good PR).

dont bring in a cash shop. i already know this one is a lost cause. its EA we are talking about.. but it would be refreshing if we didnt have it.

no multi-player. again, lost cause. its coming. but it would be nice if we had an RPG that was single player focused again like DA:O.

dont pull a sim city or diablo 3.

show us that there are going to be lots of varied environments this time around.

a focus on RPG mechanics and gameplay. i think DAII was ok in this regard, but wish we could have customized our companions a bit more.

a reassurance that they arent going to go away from the tactical combat style seen in the first 2 games. and dont just tell us.. show us with combat videos before launch.

bring back friendly fire on normal difficulty. i think a mention of this would reassure us that the game isnt going to be "dumbed down" and they did actually hear feedback from DAII.

be really honest and transparent. dont give us the usual spin.

[Dutchess]

Dominari wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

I'm not a programmer so I don't know this but how hard is it to make a toolkit?

There will be one made because it is needed to make the game.  That part is a given.  If you make your own engine and tools, you can do whatever you want with them.  

If you are using someone else's engine and tools to build your game, you are limited because you do not own those tools.  You pay to use a 3rd party's tools and they don't usually like you giving away thier stuff.

So i the end it is not a question of how hard since the build tools will be made in order to make the game.  It is a question of legal use and ownership.

I think it was Allan who stated here that the tools developers use to make the game are not the same as the tools in a toolset for modding fans. The developer tools are too complex and what-not to simply be released as a toolset, so they have to make adjustments specifically for a modkit.

[JamieCOTC]

Modding does extend the life of the game on PC, but not on consoles. That's the first problem. The second problem is that extending the life of a game only helps a company if they are going to make lots of DLC. Both DA:O and DA2 ended their DLC cycles early.

DA2's biggest problem was that it was rushed.  DA:O took 6 years to develop.  DA2 ... I keep reading 18 months, but I'm sure it was closer to 2 or 2 1/2 years. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 15 mai 2013 - 04:42 .

[ejoslin]

I know most people won't agree with this, but I seriously doubt that costs had ANYTHING at all to do with there being no mod support for DA2.

First of all, unencrypted files were not released for Awakening, so obviously the devs did not want it being modded, even though the toolset was already out there.

Second of all, if they had just released the unencrytped files for DA2, there would have been a fan made toolset -- maybe the DAO toolset would have been modified, maybe it would have been made from scratch (therefore not as robust). Look at the Sims 3 -- huge modding community and every single file editor is fan made. The files, however, are unencrypted.

For whatever reason, they don't want their games to be modded any more. That's fine -- it's their choice and I'm sure the reasons were well thought out.

Mod support never hurts a game, though. I see games like Skyrim that are still selling quite well after over a year. I'm actually thinking about tinkering with the Witcher 2 now that there's a toolset.

However, it is true that consoles cannot use mods and there are probably very good reasons for wanting the console version of the game to be more appealing than the PC version.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 04:45 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Mini-games like card games, archery, duel competition, horse race etc.

Think about GTA and ME3: Citadel.

[Fast Jimmy]

ejoslin wrote...

I know most people won't agree with this, but I seriously doubt that costs had ANYTHING at all to do with there being no mod support for DA2.

First of all, unencrypted files were not released for Awakening, so obviously the devs did not want it being modded, even though the toolset was already out there.

Second of all, if they had just released the unencrytped files for DA2, there would have been a fan made toolset -- maybe the DAO toolset would have been modified, maybe it would have been made from scratch (therefore not as robust). Look at the Sims 3 -- huge modding community and every single file editor is fan made. The files, however, are unencrypted.

I am not familiar enough with the programming aspects of why Bioware would do this; is there any advantage (piracy, space compression, load times, etc.) that Bioware would have to keep their files encrypted? Or is this just them being a bunch of doo-doo heads?

[Joy Divison]

Plaintiff wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Except for being entirely relevent. DA][ got a HUGE number of pre-orders.

It's entirely irrelevent. We're talking about people who did not buy DA2. People who did buy DA2 are a completely different demographic.

Looking at the people who did buy DA2 tells us nothing at all about the people who didn't buy it, because they are two totally disparate groups with no overlap.

Origins was exceptionally well-received.

You would, of course, know this, having polled every single person who played it. Nevermind that Bioware's telemetry shows that the vast majority of players didn't even complete it.

You are arguing that DA][ sold more poorly than Origins because Origins was not popular. That is just nonsensical and I think you that.

Vidoegames are an "experience good". Do you know what that means? It means you have to play them before you can judge their quality.

A lot of people bought DA:O, but that doesn't prove that they liked it. I'm not saying that nobody liked Origins, unlike you, claiming that everybody loved it. Statistically, some people had to dislike it, because there is no such thing as a universally-loved product.

As you say, DA2 sold significantly less units than DA:O, which means a good number of people didn't even give it a chance. It's impossible to know how good a game will be before you play it, so what are they basing it on? Information released by Bioware is part of it, yes, but DA2 is a sequel, meaning people's preconceptions about it will be coloured by their experience of its predecessor.

But oh, no! That can't be right! I forgot, you love DA:O, so that means everybody does.

Using bold font does not alter the fact that your interpretation simply conforms to what you want to believe.

Your "logic" that people's preconceptions of DA2 and decision not to "give it a chance" would be colored be their experience of DA:O is laughable.  The uninspired demo, the fundamental changes to the game that were announced before the release date, the lukewarm review from critics, the overall poor word of mouth from customers, seeing the actual game on sites such as YouTube, etc., had nothing to do with it.  Sure..........

Modifié par Joy Divison, 15 mai 2013 - 05:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Joy Divison wrote...

Your "logic" that people's preconceptions of DA2 and decision not to "give it a chance" would be colored be their experience of DA:O is laughable.  The uninspired demo, the fundamental changes to the game that were announced before the release date, the lukewarm review from critics, the overall poor word of mouth from customers, seeing the actual game on sites such as YouTube, etc., had nothing to do with it.  Sure..........

Not only that, but we can track the estimated DA2 sales as a function over the weeks after release.  The DA2 curve looks very much like a decaying radioactive isotope, ie. it starts out very strong (better than DAO in fact with the preorders), and then quickly drops down to a dying trickle by the end of two months.

This is a sales curve characteristic of those that were 'turned off by DAO and didn't give DA2 a chance".  It does fit the meme of "people liked DAO and wanted more in DA2 but were quickly dissapointed".

-Polaris

[Steppenwolf]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

Think about ME3: Citadel.

No! You can't make me!

[Volus Warlord]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

Mini-games like card games, archery, duel competition, horse race etc.

Think about GTA and ME3: Citadel.

Mini games are more often than not pointless filler.

There are some glowing exceptions, but for the most part they are meh.

[Twisted Path]

Did anyone even make any good, long and memorable mods with the Dragon Age toolkit? I went looking for some a while back and all I could find was the incomplete Baldur's Gate 2 remake and a few mods that seem to take place in Thedas and that kind of killed my interest right there.

Despite Neverwinter Nights being pretty terrible and ugly people made a ton of really well crafted modules with the toolkit (stuff like The Prophet and Elegia Eternum,) that I've probably spent more time playing than actual Bioware games. There were also a few good mods made with the NWN2 toolkit, but if there were some great Dragon Age mods I haven't been able to find them.

[Fast Jimmy]

Twisted Path wrote...

Did anyone even make any good, long and memorable mods with the Dragon Age toolkit? I went looking for some a while back and all I could find was the incomplete Baldur's Gate 2 remake and a few mods that seem to take place in Thedas and that kind of killed my interest right there.

Despite Neverwinter Nights being pretty terrible and ugly people made a ton of really well crafted modules with the toolkit (stuff like The Prophet and Elegia Eternum,) that I've probably spent more time playing than actual Bioware games. There were also a few good mods made with the NWN2 toolkit, but if there were some great Dragon Age mods I haven't been able to find them.

I'm assuming the hair and nude mods are not what you had in mind...?

[Ageless Face]

I always figured modding gives a replay value more than bringing players along. Fun as mods may be, what's the point in that if the game itself isn't good? Origins had many aspect better than DA2, with modding at the bottom of importance and acknowledgment. Few players -even on PC- know you can mod, even fewer actually get the mods to work and don't just give up on it.

Besides, what bring new or old fans is first of all marketing, then reviews, ratings and crowd opinions (assuming of course that said players are into the genre). I'm not too sure about either of DA games' marketing, but I know ratings were largely more supportive of Origins. That's why Orgins supposedly had more sales.

[Plaintiff]

Joy Divison wrote...
Using bold font does not alter the fact that your interpretation simply conforms to what you want to believe.

Not that my writing style has any relevance to the validity of my argument, but I bold words for emphasis. I find, particularly on this forum, that it's necessary, because geniuses (like you!) miss key words or ideas and wind up refuting a point I haven't actually made.

Clearly, it's not working. Maybe I should use underlines instead.
 

Your "logic" that people's preconceptions of DA2 and decision not to "give it a chance" would be colored be their experience of DA:O is laughable.

"People only think one way, and that is the way that, I, Joy Division, think, because I am queen of everything! Bow before my mighty ego and despaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiir!"

See, this is why bolding is important.

I realize that on the internet, people like to make sweeping declarations about what everybody in the entire world thinks. Sometimes it can be hard to realize when someone is merely acknowledging the possibility that at least one person might have felt differently.

I can see why you would've gotten confused and thought I was being as hyperbolic as you always are. The internet just doesn't know any other way to argue.

The uninspired demo,

Opinion

the fundamental changes to the game that were announced before the release date,

"It looks different! And... um... battle is faster! Did I mention it looks different?"

the lukewarm review from critics,

Because as we all know, critics dictate everything. I wonder what we'd do without arbiters of taste like Roger Ebert to stop terrible things like Twilight from becoming popular. Can you imagine if that awful movie had spawned a sequel? I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in that world.

the overall poor word of mouth from customers,

Yes, it is a truth universally acknowledged that no person on Earth is as rational or reasonable as your average customer...

seeing the actual game on sites such as YouTube, etc., had nothing to do with it.  Sure..........

... except Youtube commenters!

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 06:13 .

[ejoslin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I know most people won't agree with this, but I seriously doubt that costs had ANYTHING at all to do with there being no mod support for DA2.

First of all, unencrypted files were not released for Awakening, so obviously the devs did not want it being modded, even though the toolset was already out there.

Second of all, if they had just released the unencrytped files for DA2, there would have been a fan made toolset -- maybe the DAO toolset would have been modified, maybe it would have been made from scratch (therefore not as robust). Look at the Sims 3 -- huge modding community and every single file editor is fan made. The files, however, are unencrypted.

I am not familiar enough with the programming aspects of why Bioware would do this; is there any advantage (piracy, space compression, load times, etc.) that Bioware would have to keep their files encrypted? Or is this just them being a bunch of doo-doo heads?

I doubt there are any advantages to having files encrypted -- compressed, yes, encrypted, no.  It certainly won't make a difference as far as piracy goes -- it just makes it harder to peak into those files if you want to see them.

The advantages I was speaking of is this: if you have a choice to buy a game on the PC vs., say, the Xbox, and you own both, a developer would probably prefer the game being purchased on the Xbox.  Not only is there less chance of piracy (though there is PLENTY of piracy on the Xbox), but since there is no modding at all, all DLCs will be official ones, bought from the company.  Consoles are also far easier to support.

So the developer has made the price exactly the same between a PC and the consoles, even though they have to pay a $10 fee to Microsoft/Sony.  I don't object to the $60 price tag (at all -- I'd pay more for a good game), but logic would dictate that the developer would far prefer the customer to pay the $10 difference, yet they're absorbing this.  That's to take away the price point advantage of the PC version.  Take away mod support, then that's one less reason to buy the PC version.  Console versions, in theory, should be far more stable, so if all things are equal, it makes more sense to buy for the console.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 06:51 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A modkit is not on the table for DA3.

The lack of a full modkit does not require that the game be difficult to mod.  There are many ways BioWare could design the game to make it easier to mod.  The ability to modify in-game values (like the constants in mechanical calculations).  The ability to extract models so we could alter them using 3rd party software.  The override folder.

A full toolset is nice to have, but it is by no means necessary to enable in-depth modding.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You're kidding right, Quasar is awesome.

It's no Pazaak.

[ejoslin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A modkit is not on the table for DA3.

The lack of a full modkit does not require that the game be difficult to mod.  There are many ways BioWare could design the game to make it easier to mod.  The ability to modify in-game values (like the constants in mechanical calculations).  The ability to extract models so we could alter them using 3rd party software.  The override folder.

A full toolset is nice to have, but it is by no means necessary to enable in-depth modding.

Exactly.  There will be modding tools available, if the files are accessible, whether they're developer provided or fan made.  Given that they did not release the files for Awakening though there was a full toolset available really does shoot the whole "it cost too much" thing in the foot.  There has to be a different reason there.

greengoron89 wrote...

If you build it, they will come. If DA:I is a hit with both critics and (most) fans, the fans they lost will return.

Yep.  That's what brought me to DAO -- the exceptionally good reception the game got.  I never even heard of it until I saw a bunch of people raving on a FO3 board.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 06:54 .

[Beerfish]

I don't think a toolset has a huge impact on initial sales unless it is a fundamental part of the game to start with (see NWN). It can extend the life and sales life of a game significantly though (once again see NWN).

Two problems with the toolset.

1) It is not an easy task or a cheap task to get it into an acceptable condition to hand out or sell to consumers.
2) Unfortunately DLC is here to stay and it would negatively affect those micro transactions like buying extra outfits or weapons and such.

Any company would have to be sure that selling a toolset would generate enough revenue to offset some of these expansions and such.

BioWare and EA tried to make the DA toolset successful and put their money where theie3r m,mouths were initially for it. however a number of factors just make that toolset not easy to use or master.

[Beerfish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A modkit is not on the table for DA3.

The lack of a full modkit does not require that the game be difficult to mod.  There are many ways BioWare could design the game to make it easier to mod.  The ability to modify in-game values (like the constants in mechanical calculations).  The ability to extract models so we could alter them using 3rd party software.  The override folder.

A full toolset is nice to have, but it is by no means necessary to enable in-depth modding.

It is still something that has to be handled carefully because it is oh so easy to break a game by just a tweak.

[Twisted Path]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

Did anyone even make any good, long and memorable mods with the Dragon Age toolkit? I went looking for some a while back and all I could find was the incomplete Baldur's Gate 2 remake and a few mods that seem to take place in Thedas and that kind of killed my interest right there.

Despite Neverwinter Nights being pretty terrible and ugly people made a ton of really well crafted modules with the toolkit (stuff like The Prophet and Elegia Eternum,) that I've probably spent more time playing than actual Bioware games. There were also a few good mods made with the NWN2 toolkit, but if there were some great Dragon Age mods I haven't been able to find them.

I'm assuming the hair and nude mods are not what you had in mind...?

Yeah, I was talking about good stand-alone adventures like some of the better Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 modules. The Dragon Age toolkit can be used to create them (I think?) but it seems like not many people have made one anywhere near the scope of the better Neverwinter Nights modules or Bioware-made DLCs like Leiliana's Song.

I imagine the Dragon Age toolkit is a lot more complicated to use and designing good adventures with it takes a lot more time, but maybe I'm wrong and someone who knows a lot more about moding can correct me.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem with fanmade toolkits boils down to support. If the developer releases the toolkit the developer usually provides support for it. This is what Bethesda and Bioware did for the TES games and DAO. If I as a fan decides to create a toolkit based on uncrypted files he/she does not have to support it. The user uses it at their risk.

If an error crops up in it, the fan does not have to correct it. If a person wishes to use the toolkit he/she uses it at his/her risk. The other problem with fan made toolkits is that the programs are usually poorly documented in code and rarely come with manuals explaining what can or cannot be done.

If someone creates a toolkit and later does not support it I could crack open the code and attempt to modify it. If the code is poorly written or documented then it is not worth the effort. You would spend more time trying to figure out what is going on than it is worth.

I am not saying that developer toolkits could not suffer from the same problems, but I expect the developer to support the product and make corrections.

Most of the mods I have seen have come from developer supported toolkits from Dungeon Siege I to TES and Fallout.

How many fanmade toolkits are out there that can rival the toolkit for either NWN, Dungeon Siege or TES and are properly documented?