575 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The problem with fanmade toolkits boils down to support. If the developer releases the toolkit the developer usually provides support for it. This is what Bethesda and Bioware did for the TES games and DAO. If I as a fan decides to create a toolkit based on uncrypted files he/she does not have to support it. The user uses it at their risk.

If an error crops up in it, the fan does not have to correct it. If a person wishes to use the toolkit he/she uses it at his/her risk. The other problem with fan made toolkits is that the programs are usually poorly documented in code and rarely come with manuals explaining what can or cannot be done.

If someone creates a toolkit and later does not support it I could crack open the code and attempt to modify it. If the code is poorly written or documented then it is not worth the effort. You would spend more time trying to figure out what is going on than it is worth.

I am not saying that developer toolkits could not suffer from the same problems, but I expect the developer to support the product and make corrections.

Most of the mods I have seen have come from developer supported toolkits from Dungeon Siege I to TES and Fallout.

How many fanmade toolkits are out there that can rival the toolkit for either NWN, Dungeon Siege or TES and are properly documented?

Of course the developer toolset is better.  No one is denying that.  What I'm arguing against is that modding is completely unavailable because of cost in the DA series after DAO.  Awakening never had its files released though there's a toolset out there.

If the dev doesn't want to bear the cost, that doesn't mean that the files have to be unavailable.  Sims 3 has a huge modding community, yet all the mod tools are, in fact, fan made, and, in truth, better supported than the DA toolset.

That's the thing, if one programmer decides to make a toolset for free, it will be bare bones, but it will work.  And if it doesn't, or if it has issues, either someone else will jump into the project or start a new project.  Usually.  People who like modding REALLY like it, and some of them are very talented programmers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 07:45 .

[Ostagar2011]

DomRod95 wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is there a place where I can find the exact number of people who bought DA:O compared to the people who bought DA2? I hear talks of the numbers but I haven't actually seen them myself.

There have been loads of threads on this. The best source for this is not the guesstimating VGChartz.
Rather EA's own press releases. Google "Dragon Age Origin goes triple platinum" and note carefully when that EA statement was relative to DA:O's release (hint - it was failry early before word of mouth got aroung that it was a gem and people started piling into it - my copy and a dozen of friends I dragged in aren't in that number :happy:). There was - I believe - a dev twitter going around that - after (modest) steam sales etc, DA:O had surpassed 5m within a year of launch.

Then EA's press release that DA2 'sold in' 2 million copies, ie in plain English it shipped 2 million to stores, and was contractually obliged to buy back any unsold copies.

But the biggest sales news will be DA:I pre-orders. Gaider can argue he made more profit selling 2 million DA:2's rushed out in 16 months, than he did on 5 million DA:O's crafted over 4 years. That may be true unless you take account of the loss of goodwill from fans who felt DA2 was a lazy cash grab and a forgattable game. They won't be buying DA:I in the most lucrative time window for BioWare (pre-order plus first month).

[Joy Divison]

Plaintiff wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Using bold font does not alter the fact that your interpretation simply conforms to what you want to believe.

Not that my writing style has any relevance to the validity of my argument, but I bold words for emphasis. I find, particularly on this forum, that it's necessary, because geniuses (like you!) miss key words or ideas and wind up refuting a point I haven't actually made.

Clearly, it's not working. Maybe I should use underlines instead.
 

Your "logic" that people's preconceptions of DA2 and decision not to "give it a chance" would be colored be their experience of DA:O is laughable.

"People only think one way, and that is the way that, I, Joy Division, think, because I am queen of everything! Bow before my mighty ego and despaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiir!"

See, this is why bolding is important.

I realize that on the internet, people like to make sweeping declarations about what everybody in the entire world thinks. Sometimes it can be hard to realize when someone is merely acknowledging the possibility that at least one person might have felt differently.

I can see why you would've gotten confused and thought I was being as hyperbolic as you always are. The internet just doesn't know any other way to argue.

The uninspired demo,

Opinion

the fundamental changes to the game that were announced before the release date,

"It looks different! And... um... battle is faster! Did I mention it looks different?"

the lukewarm review from critics,

Because as we all know, critics dictate everything. I wonder what we'd do without arbiters of taste like Roger Ebert to stop terrible things like Twilight from becoming popular. Can you imagine if that awful movie had spawned a sequel? I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in that world.

the overall poor word of mouth from customers,

Yes, it is a truth universally acknowledged that no person on Earth is as rational or reasonable as your average customer...

seeing the actual game on sites such as YouTube, etc., had nothing to do with it.  Sure..........

... except Youtube commenters!

You can try underlining words, however I find that a little less hyprocisy, a little more listening, and an actual attempt to understand persepctives that diverge from your own will make for a stimulating discussion, something I can tell is just not going to happen with you.

I never claimed to speak for everyone nor did I imply it.  Yet you claimed that I did and put words in my mouth.  You are projecting how you think people on the Internet act onto me, yet you find this practice objectionable.  Nice.

And what point are you trying to make by (badly) refuting the reasons I listed that might have otherwise colored people's preconceptions about DA:2 more so than their experience with the predecessor?  If you are trying to demonstrate to the forum just how incapable you are of thinking, you are doing a very good job.

Yes, saying that the demo was uninspired was an opinion.  Because I was able to form such an opinion of the demo, said opinion would have colored my preconception about DA:2 and influenced a potnetial decision to buy it, no?

Yes DA2 looks different. You are being deliberately ignorant by acknowledging looks and combat speed as the only fundamental changes.

Who said critics dictate everything?  Your reply did, not me.  Interesting as you dislike it when people "wind up refuting a point I haven't actually made."

And I have no idea what you are getting at with the whole no person is as rational as average customers.  Seeing how you've disregarded what I've said or put words into my mouth rather than make an honest attempt at discussion, I highly doubt whatever point you were trying to make is worthwhile.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 15 mai 2013 - 08:25 .

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...

Not only that, but we can track the estimated DA2 sales as a function over the weeks after release.  The DA2 curve looks very much like a decaying radioactive isotope, ie. it starts out very strong (better than DAO in fact with the preorders), and then quickly drops down to a dying trickle by the end of two months.

This is a sales curve characteristic of those that were 'turned off by DAO and didn't give DA2 a chance".  It does fit the meme of "people liked DAO and wanted more in DA2 but were quickly dissapointed".

Isn't that curve absolutely typical for a video game?

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not only that, but we can track the estimated DA2 sales as a function over the weeks after release.  The DA2 curve looks very much like a decaying radioactive isotope, ie. it starts out very strong (better than DAO in fact with the preorders), and then quickly drops down to a dying trickle by the end of two months.

This is a sales curve characteristic of those that were 'turned off by DAO and didn't give DA2 a chance".  It does fit the meme of "people liked DAO and wanted more in DA2 but were quickly dissapointed".

Isn't that curve absolutely typical for a video game?

Not if it's a popular game.  Compare to Skyrim or DAO.  You see a very different curve. Heck even ME3 has a different curve but it's harder to interpret because of MP and microtransactions.

-Polaris

[Paul E Dangerously]

Toolkit? No. Making a generally solid game with a decent plot and characters that don't make you want to behead them ten minutes after meeting them? Yes.

[AlanC9]

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

[AlanC9]

ejoslin wrote...
That's the thing, if one programmer decides to make a toolset for free, it will be bare bones, but it will work.  And if it doesn't, or if it has issues, either someone else will jump into the project or start a new project.  Usually.  People who like modding REALLY like it, and some of them are very talented programmers.

Is it even possible for one programmer to do that? Bio itself is relying on licensed tools, right?

[ejoslin]

AlanC9 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
That's the thing, if one programmer decides to make a toolset for free, it will be bare bones, but it will work.  And if it doesn't, or if it has issues, either someone else will jump into the project or start a new project.  Usually.  People who like modding REALLY like it, and some of them are very talented programmers.

Is it even possible for one programmer to do that? Bio itself is relying on licensed tools, right?

Build a database and allow for the import and export of a file?  Even I've built things like that, and I am not a programmer, though the output was far more simple.  Even if the tool was not as robust as a dev toolkit, which it would not be, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be functional.

It's possible that someone would be able to make an extension to the existing DAO toolset, and in fact I swear more than one of the devs said that the existing DA Toolset could be used (though without those files, it's useless).

Skyrim is actually a good example of a devkit that works well, but still has fan made support.  TESEdit is fan made, but essential for both modders and people who use mods.

Again, there was no cost issue when it came to Awakening's file -- they just chose not to release it.  And that is 100% their choice; I have no issue with that, though they would have had a lot more of their bugs fixed, for free, at least on the PC, if they had.  Of course, there would have most likely been a few Nathanial and Anders mods out there, and I'm not sure if that would be considered a plus or minus to the devs.

ETA: With the Sims 3 (sorry to keep using it as an example), using the most popular mod tool for editing files, you do have to search out the individual file and edit it, which already makes it far less robust -- the search is slow and annoying.  However, it's functional and quite powerful.  And when you don't need something quite as powerful, there's another tool.

In fact, at first, there was ZERO modding support for Sims 3, and so a modder actually built what was known as the "framework" which allowed for people to add mods to their game.  The devs realized that the game WOULD be modded and made it easier, but it wasn't so easy at first.

Oh, and with the sims 3 mod tools, the authors made it not work well on pirated things without a bunch of extra steps.  It refuses to import the file if it shows characteristics of being pirated.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 10:24 .

[sami jo]

The toolset was so critical to DA:O because the game was and still is highly buggy. Don't get me wrong, I love the game; but I switched from Xbox to PC for the bug squashing mods. The vast majority of mods were either aesthetic (hair, tattoo, companion appearance, armor) or bug fixes. Content mods do exist and some were very well done and popular, but they don't represent the majority of mods.

The lack of those kinds of bug fixes or bug fixes from BW was one of the things that made me far less willing to play DA2. It also tossed out many of the core RPG mechanics that increase replayability and had a flock of game mechanics aimed at broadening its audience that I wasn't fond of. Mods could have helped to hold my attention and that of DA:O's core audience.

The devs haven't shown much interest in pleasing the core RPG audience, however. They have chosen as a company to focus on a different audience that isn't as likely to care about a toolkit.

The result with much of their original audience is that Awakening was a must pre-order. DA2 was a pre-order with trepidation. DA2 DLC was largely ignored and DA3 is a wait and see. A toolkit would pique my interest but it won't save a bad game at this point. The franchise has lost too much steam.

[Sanunes]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Modding does extend the life of the game on PC, but not on consoles. That's the first problem. The second problem is that extending the life of a game only helps a company if they are going to make lots of DLC. Both DA:O and DA2 ended their DLC cycles early. 

DA2's biggest problem was that it was rushed.  DA:O took 6 years to develop.  DA2 ... I keep reading 18 months, but I'm sure it was closer to 2 or 2 1/2 years.  

The reason why people are throwing around 18months is because Dragon Age: Origins was released on November 3, 2009 and Dragon Age 2 was released on March 8, 2011.  With the game basically being unable to be modified after going gold six to eight weeks before release (purely my guess based on other games) you can have an 18 to 20month window based on pre-production that could have been hurried as well.

[Sanunes]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not only that, but we can track the estimated DA2 sales as a function over the weeks after release.  The DA2 curve looks very much like a decaying radioactive isotope, ie. it starts out very strong (better than DAO in fact with the preorders), and then quickly drops down to a dying trickle by the end of two months.

This is a sales curve characteristic of those that were 'turned off by DAO and didn't give DA2 a chance".  It does fit the meme of "people liked DAO and wanted more in DA2 but were quickly dissapointed".

Isn't that curve absolutely typical for a video game?

Not if it's a popular game.  Compare to Skyrim or DAO.  You see a very different curve. Heck even ME3 has a different curve but it's harder to interpret because of MP and microtransactions.

-Polaris

Dragon Age 2 has an odd place with people liking and disliking it, for people (myself included) had issues with how the game felt such as being chopped up by the acts or how it felt rushed, but there was also backlash I would think towards the game because Dragon Age: Origins wasn't enough like Baulder's Gate, for it was billed on being the "spiritual successor" to Baulder's Gate.

I do agree popular games will have an uptake after a few weeks because of sales and word of mouth, but at the same time Dragon Age 2 did better then other recent games that were released recently such as Aliens: Colonial Marines, but I think the trend Dragon Age 2 has is more of an average game, which is something BioWare really hasn't done since Jade Empire.

[Jestina]

If they want to get back those they lost, then they would have to go back to making great RPG's again. As it is, they snubbed the RPG fans and changed to mainly developing action games with very little rpg left in them.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sanunes wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Modding does extend the life of the game on PC, but not on consoles. That's the first problem. The second problem is that extending the life of a game only helps a company if they are going to make lots of DLC. Both DA:O and DA2 ended their DLC cycles early. 

DA2's biggest problem was that it was rushed.  DA:O took 6 years to develop.  DA2 ... I keep reading 18 months, but I'm sure it was closer to 2 or 2 1/2 years.  

The reason why people are throwing around 18months is because Dragon Age: Origins was released on November 3, 2009 and Dragon Age 2 was released on March 8, 2011.  With the game basically being unable to be modified after going gold six to eight weeks before release (purely my guess based on other games) you can have an 18 to 20month window based on pre-production that could have been hurried as well.

That is assuming any sort of real production of note was going on for DA2 right after DA:O, when the team, if anything, was likely working on Awakening. An expansion is not a small effort like a single DLC is.

I would say the bulk of their efforts for DA2 were not underway until far after the November 2009 date. 

[Darth Death]

Your proposing the ability to mod again to be the solution? I'm more incline for BioWare to at least make a good game first before anything else. If that can't happen, then there's simply no hope for former fans & newcomers. Mods doesn't save a game, it only adds more years. 

Modifié par Darth Death, 16 mai 2013 - 01:22 .

[Realmzmaster]

Jestina wrote...

If they want to get back those they lost, then they would have to go back to making great RPG's again. As it is, they snubbed the RPG fans and changed to mainly developing action games with very little rpg left in them.

You are correct. I think Bioware needs to go back to games like BG1 &2 and NWN for real inspiration on how best to make an crpg. Or look back at some of the great crpgs like Wizardry, Ultima and Might & Magic.

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

Not really.  There are a lot of very popular and well known games (Civ 2 as well IIRC) that don't follow the half-life curve.  You are simply mistaken.

-Polaris

[AlanC9]

ejoslin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
That's the thing, if one programmer decides to make a toolset for free, it will be bare bones, but it will work.  And if it doesn't, or if it has issues, either someone else will jump into the project or start a new project.  Usually.  People who like modding REALLY like it, and some of them are very talented programmers.

Is it even possible for one programmer to do that? Bio itself is relying on licensed tools, right?

Build a database and allow for the import and export of a file?

Wasn't talking about that part of a toolset myself, but I get the feeling I'm out of sync with you here.

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

Not really.  There are a lot of very popular and well known games (Civ 2 as well IIRC) that don't follow the half-life curve.  You are simply mistaken.

When you say, "a lot," are you saying that's true for a high percentage of games, or even a high percentage of successful games? "A lot" isn't meaningful in itself.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 mai 2013 - 04:48 .

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

Not really.  There are a lot of very popular and well known games (Civ 2 as well IIRC) that don't follow the half-life curve.  You are simply mistaken.

When you say, "a lot," are you saying that's true for a high percentage of games, or even a high percentage of successful games? "A lot" isn't meaningful in itself.

No it doesn't have to be a "high percentage".  You said such games were outliers.  They are not.  If such games were outliers then they'd represent games more than two sigma more than the norm for CRPGs which would mean they'd only be about 2% of all games.  They aren't.  It's more than that.

-Polaris

[KDD-0063]

AlanC9 wrote...

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

DA2's reception wasn't good, which reduces sales;
DA2 also had a day 1 DLC Sebastian that comes with pre-ordering three months in advance which, arguably would boost pre-orders.

Maybe other games would show the curve downwards, but it would not be like DA2, not that steep.

Ironically it is the prime reason why I did not buy the game, so much pre-order bonus that it sounds like BW wants so bad that I make the decision blind.

[ejoslin]

... Actually, nvm (HUGE SNIP HAPPENED HERE).

I'll end this by saying, yet again, that we were told that DA2 toolset was not released because it would be too expensive.  HOWEVER, Awakening's files were also never released, yet the DAO toolset would have worked fine for those.  That makes me think that somewhere along the line, some decision maker decided they didn't want mods at all.  Because Awakening's files were never released, I was pretty sure that DA2's files wouldn't be either, though I had some hope because the took a long time in saying, "no."

And that's fine.  It's their choice.  I don't particularly think it's a great choice, but I don't have to!

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mai 2013 - 02:45 .

[Realmzmaster]

A toolkit may bring back a few on the PC side, but it does absolutely nothing for those who play on consoles. Given the fact that the largest sales are to that group Bioware needs a good product. I thought DAO and DA2 were good products with some issues. Bioware needs to improve and make an excellent product. DA3 will never please everyone. Bioware will have to find a way to please most of the gamers. I predict that some gamers on who like DAO or DA2 better than the other may not be happy with DA3.

[Realmzmaster]

Double post

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 mai 2013 - 03:58 .