575 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

A toolkit may bring back a few on the PC side, but it does absolutely nothing for those who play on consoles. Given the fact that the largest sales are to that group Bioware needs a good product. I thought DAO and DA2 were good products with some issues. Bioware needs to improve and make an excellent product. DA3 will never please everyone. Bioware will have to find a way to please most of the gamers. I predict that some gamers on who like DAO or DA2 better than the other may not be happy with DA3.

Actually, I doubt a toolset would bring back people.  You're right in that what they could do to bring back people is make an excellent game.

A toolset would probably extend the game's self life, however.  it probably would generate cross-platform sales as well.

[ragtagfleet]

KDD-0063 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That just proves that Skyrim and DAO are outliers.

DA2's reception wasn't good, which reduces sales;
DA2 also had a day 1 DLC Sebastian that comes with pre-ordering three months in advance which, arguably would boost pre-orders.

Maybe other games would show the curve downwards, but it would not be like DA2, not that steep.

Ironically it is the prime reason why I did not buy the game, so much pre-order bonus that it sounds like BW wants so bad that I make the decision blind.

Here are some other games that show a similar curve downward:

http://www.vgchartz....nfinite/Global/

http://www.vgchartz....f-kings/Global/

http://www.vgchartz....ffect-2/Global/

I'd say all of these games were generally very well received by users and professional reviewers alike. So maybe the correlation between any one factor and the sales curve isn't so simple as some on BSN would like to believe.

[cJohnOne]

The escapist article with the same chart says the pre-orders were 400,000 but I don't know how they would know that number and how would they possibly know what the opening sales for the game were. It stands to reason that opening sale were higher than 155,000 in my opinion.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 16 mai 2013 - 06:31 .

[Realmzmaster]

ejoslin wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

A toolkit may bring back a few on the PC side, but it does absolutely nothing for those who play on consoles. Given the fact that the largest sales are to that group Bioware needs a good product. I thought DAO and DA2 were good products with some issues. Bioware needs to improve and make an excellent product. DA3 will never please everyone. Bioware will have to find a way to please most of the gamers. I predict that some gamers on who like DAO or DA2 better than the other may not be happy with DA3.

Actually, I doubt a toolset would bring back people.  You're right in that what they could do to bring back people is make an excellent game.

A toolset would probably extend the game's self life, however.  it probably would generate cross-platform sales as well.

I agree that it could generate some cross platform sales, but the amount would probably be insignificant in the overall total.

[SafetyShattered]

It might a little but i don't think it will help as much as you think it will, i mean most of my friends don't even know what a toolkit even is hahaha.

[cJohnOne]

A ha, Pre-orders are only 20 percent at 400,000.

[ejoslin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

A toolkit may bring back a few on the PC side, but it does absolutely nothing for those who play on consoles. Given the fact that the largest sales are to that group Bioware needs a good product. I thought DAO and DA2 were good products with some issues. Bioware needs to improve and make an excellent product. DA3 will never please everyone. Bioware will have to find a way to please most of the gamers. I predict that some gamers on who like DAO or DA2 better than the other may not be happy with DA3.

Actually, I doubt a toolset would bring back people.  You're right in that what they could do to bring back people is make an excellent game.

A toolset would probably extend the game's self life, however.  it probably would generate cross-platform sales as well.

I agree that it could generate some cross platform sales, but the amount would probably be insignificant in the overall total.

Sure, but extending the game's shelf life is not something to minimize.  Especially if you're putting out good quality DLC.  I think what killed DAO's shelf life was that most of the DLC was pretty bad.  But the longer you have people actually playing the game, the more profitable the DLC will be.

[Realmzmaster]

ejoslin wrote...


Sure, but extending the game's shelf life is not something to minimize.  Especially if you're putting out good quality DLC.  I think what killed DAO's shelf life was that most of the DLC was pretty bad.  But the longer you have people actually playing the game, the more profitable the DLC will be.

That is the purpose of DLC and expansions which will work across all platforms. A toolkit only works for one platform. The game would be extended for only a small segment of the total number. That would be great for PC gamers not for the consoles.
Also most of the mods that came out for DAO really did not extend the shelf life. The toolkit for NWN has continued to extend the shelf life for that game, but then again only for PC users. Mac users use  to be left out in the cold.

Most console gamers pick the console as their gaming platform for a reason. One reason being that more games are created for those platforms that are not on the PC.  

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 mai 2013 - 07:43 .

[cJohnOne]

Do Consoles run without internet 'cause I have DSL internet and it's too slow for some games. I might have to switch to consoles one day but not today. I hope the BioWare games keep working.

[Fast Jimmy]

cJohnOne wrote...

Do Consoles run without internet 'cause I have DSL internet and it's too slow for some games. I might have to switch to consoles one day but not today. I hope the BioWare games keep working.

Consoles work without interent, yes.

[Rawgrim]

Make really good games. Thats it. They will get back fans they have lost, and they will gain new ones.

[Wozearly]

Plaintiff wrote...

You would, of course, know this, having polled every single person who played it. Nevermind that Bioware's telemetry shows that the vast majority of players didn't even complete it.

Just to pick up on that point, almost every piece of telemetry and game research into completion shows that the majority of games (beyond a pretty low playing time threshold) have a significant number of players that never complete them. Often a clear majority.

Unless there's evidence that DA2 had a far higher completion rate, which there isn't as far as I know, plus evidence that completion rate is closely correlated with sales/recommendations for that game and/or future games then its not a relevant point.

Plaintiff wrote...

A lot of people bought DA:O, but that doesn't prove that they liked it. I'm not saying that nobody liked Origins, unlike you, claiming that everybody loved it.

Clearly not everyone loved DA:O.

However, if you look at fan scores from Metacritic and a lot of the DA:O vs DA2 polls on these forums, its far from clear that DA2 scored higher. Indeed, DA:O often tends to come out on top in those comparisons. That doesn't mean that returning to the DA:O approach is the right answer (although, Maker knows, I'd personally love to see it), but it does likely mean that DA2 was considered more flawed / less popular as a game by fans.

That doesn't mean its a bad game. It just suggests that fewer people liked it and/or fewer people liked it as much as the Origins players liked DA:O.

Plaintiff wrote...

As you say, DA2 sold significantly less units than DA:O, which means a good number of people didn't even give it a chance. It's impossible to know how good a game will be before you play it, so what are they basing it on? Information released by Bioware is part of it, yes, but DA2 is a sequel, meaning people's preconceptions about it will be coloured by their experience of its predecessor.

Its a theory, although its by no means certain. The fact that DA2 week 1 sales and preorders surpassed DA:Os substantially would actually suggest the exact reverse - why would more people preorder a sequel if the original was widely disliked, given that the pre-order bonuses for both were broadly similar? Was DA2 marketed that much more effectively to people more prone to preordering? Did everyone really hate the demo?

You could equally argue that as the huge drop in sales came shortly after release, that the explosion of mixed fan feedback (putting it mildly...) could have affected sales at one of the most time-critical points, as entertainment goods tend to have time-sensitive sales that are heavily weighted to the release date.

The point is that neither we, nor Bioware, will ever really know. And both we, and Bioware, are bound to be biased in favour of our own opinions.

[Wozearly]

Rawgrim wrote...

Make really good games. Thats it. They will get back fans they have lost, and they will gain new ones.

Ahh, if only that were so easy.

Lots of fans thought DA:O was a really good game. I'd venture to suggest it brought some new fans and picked up a few who had previously been a bit so-so about prior releases.

Lots of fans then thought DA2 was a really good game. I'd venture to suggest it brought some new fans and picked up a few who had previously been a bit so-so about prior releases.

But wait a cotton-picking minute. What about the explosion of fan fury between DA:O and DA2? It doesn't fit the model...


Perhaps annoyingly, this is where New Coke is a good example. Coca Cola took it very personally that in blind taste tests, Pepsi came out repeatedly as a favourite. Pepsi marketed this ruthlessly, and Coke were worried about the long-term impact.

So Coke played around with the formula, ran a shedload of taste tests, and eventually came up with something that consistently aced blind taste tests. People loved it more than Pepsi and the current Coke. It seemed like a no-brainer to immediately switch to the new formula in all Coke overnight.

This became one of the biggest marketing disasters of all time.

Coke drinkers went utterly ballistic. It didn't necessarily matter that the new formula was (technically) more widely preferred, the staunch objection was that they felt misled in what they'd bought. Coke held their ground for a while, then grudgingly released Coke classic, which used the old formula. When Coke classic sales vastly outstripped the new variety, they bowed to the inevitable. New Coke was consigned to the dustbin of history, and Coke classic became, simply, Coke.

They got back to where they started, but only after spending an absolute fortune and having a long, drawn-out PR disaster of a war with their customers. And all because they pushed on them an unexpected new product that they were "supposed" to prefer.

Moral of the story? Never, EVER underestimate how much value people attach to consistency and expectation setting when it comes to brands.

Bioware's PR difficulties with DA2 and ME3 were both, in my opinion, ultimately caused by this.

Modifié par Wozearly, 16 mai 2013 - 10:21 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I'm going to have call Emergency Services, because we've heard some reports about nails being hit on the head around here.

[Noctis Augustus]

Wozearly wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Make really good games. Thats it. They will get back fans they have lost, and they will gain new ones.

Ahh, if only that were so easy.

Lots of fans thought DA:O was a really good game. I'd venture to suggest it brought some new fans and picked up a few who had previously been a bit so-so about prior releases.

Lots of fans then thought DA2 was a really good game. I'd venture to suggest it brought some new fans and picked up a few who had previously been a bit so-so about prior releases.

But wait a cotton-picking minute. What about the explosion of fan fury between DA:O and DA2? It doesn't fit the model...


Perhaps annoyingly, this is where New Coke is a good example. Coca Cola took it very personally that in blind taste tests, Pepsi came out repeatedly as a favourite. Pepsi marketed this ruthlessly, and Coke were worried about the long-term impact.

So Coke played around with the formula, ran a shedload of taste tests, and eventually came up with something that consistently aced blind taste tests. People loved it more than Pepsi and the current Coke. It seemed like a no-brainer to immediately switch to the new formula in all Coke overnight.

This became one of the biggest marketing disasters of all time.

Coke drinkers went utterly ballistic. It didn't necessarily matter that the new formula was (technically) more widely preferred, the staunch objection was that they felt misled in what they'd bought. Coke held their ground for a while, then grudgingly released Coke classic, which used the old formula. When Coke classic sales vastly outstripped the new variety, they bowed to the inevitable. New Coke was consigned to the dustbin of history, and Coke classic became, simply, Coke.

They got back to where they started, but only after spending an absolute fortune and having a long, drawn-out PR disaster of a war with their customers. And all because they pushed on them an unexpected new product that they were "supposed" to prefer.

Moral of the story? Never, EVER underestimate how much value people attach to consistency and expectation setting when it comes to brands.

Bioware's PR difficulties with DA2 and ME3 were both, in my opinion, ultimately caused by this.

The difference is that the new flavor was better than the old one while DA2 was much worse than DAO.

[Tinxa]

Wozearly wrote...

Just to pick up on that point, almost every piece of telemetry and game research into completion shows that the majority of games (beyond a pretty low playing time threshold) have a significant number of players that never complete them. Often a clear majority.

Unless there's evidence that DA2 had a far higher completion rate, which there isn't as far as I know, plus evidence that completion rate is closely correlated with sales/recommendations for that game and/or future games then its not a relevant point.

This I don't get How can this be? Why would someone spend money on a game (and they're not exactly cheap) and then not even finish it once??? Much less the majority of people doing this... Who are these people???

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tinxa wrote...

This I don't get How can this be? Why would someone spend money on a game (and they're not exactly cheap) and then not even finish it once??? Much less the majority of people doing this... Who are these people???

Perhaps they have gameplay objectives that are different from yours.

I rarely finish games.  But I start them many times.  I might play 12 different characters 60% of the way through a game, but have none of them finish it.

[Tinxa]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

This I don't get How can this be? Why would someone spend money on a game (and they're not exactly cheap) and then not even finish it once??? Much less the majority of people doing this... Who are these people???

Perhaps they have gameplay objectives that are different from yours.

I rarely finish games.  But I start them many times.  I might play 12 different characters 60% of the way through a game, but have none of them finish it.

And you never want to see the ending???

[Fast Jimmy]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'd rather they keep cranking out "New Coke", if only to see people actually quit and move on. DA:I seems to have a lot of people in a wait and see approach... "If this isn't good, then never again!!" I'd rather they just do something that will insure it'll ****** these particular players off. It's best if everyone moves on. They'll be happier. Bioware continues to make games they want to make, and these former fans can find somewhere else where they don't get so angry.

As it stands, it's a toxic relationship.

This is only really possible if hundreds of thousands (or possibky even millions) of people take their place. Otherwise, it is going to result in less sales and Bioware won't be able to afford to make the games they like. They may then have to scale back things like their high-end story-telling mediums and cinematics... which might actually make them more attractive to the group that is claiming to be on the verge of leaving them. 

Oh, the irony of it all. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 mai 2013 - 11:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tinxa wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I rarely finish games.  But I start them many times.  I might play 12 different characters 60% of the way through a game, but have none of them finish it.

And you never want to see the ending???

I'm not playing these games to be told a story.  I'm playing these games to see how my characters behave and what that gets them.

RPGs, for me, are all about potential.  Every step of the way through the game, I'm imaging how characters different from mine might act in the same circumstances.  And, at some point, I stop playing that character (generally intending to return to it at some point, but that rarely happens) and start again with a different character so I can see different things unfold.

I don't want to be told a story.  I want to create a story, and then I want to create a different story within the same framework, and then again, and again.

That's how I play.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 16 mai 2013 - 11:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

You have a very odd perception of how these things work. Are you lumping players who want their Warden back, who want a toolkit, who want more roleplaying control, who protest MP and who want different combat all in the same group? There are tons of complaint threads on these boards. If Bioware made a game that failed to cater to ANY of those requests, they would have no fanbase, period.

What exactly do you hope that they do for DA3 to scare away all these "crazy ex-boyfriends" you speak of?

[Shaigunjoe]

As someone who purchased DA:O and not DA2, I didn't pick up DA2 for several reasons. Because (1) DA:O was only good in my book, not awesome, not bad, but just ok, but it felt way to streamlined from older RPGs that I enjoyed, definitely did not inspire me to pick up DA2 as a day one purchase. Feedback from DA2 listed repeated environments and pop up enemies, two things I am not a fan of, I was also not a fan of the different art style. I may pick up DA2 someday, but it is not a high priority.

That doesn't mean I won't give me a look. If the multiplayer is co op, it will be a day one purchase for me. I can't think of anything else that would convince me to pick up the game on release.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 17 mai 2013 - 12:31 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Just to pick up on that point, almost every piece of telemetry and game research into completion shows that the majority of games (beyond a pretty low playing time threshold) have a significant number of players that never complete them. Often a clear majority.

Unless there's evidence that DA2 had a far higher completion rate, which there isn't as far as I know, plus evidence that completion rate is closely correlated with sales/recommendations for that game and/or future games then its not a relevant point.

Fernando Melo gives a breakdown here.

I couldn't be tasked with whether or not 5% is considered significant or not, however.

On this list, I would only expect ME3's number to have changed in any significant manner.