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[Kallimachus]

OK, so when you meet him for the first time (if you're playing a female mage in DAO) I'll admit, there is something sweet and innocent about his blubbering and awkwardness and shyness, but that lasts for about what? a minute and a half?
His role in the second encounter you have with him is less endearing - in the end of the circle tower quest he demands the slaughter of every mage in the circle - man woman and child (never mind that many of them have gone through an experience every bit as harrowing and torturous as he, never mind that many of them have been wounded and even killed). This however could be excused by the fact that his own trauma was so recent and fresh, and that he was operating under very strong emotions that clouded his reason and obliterated any semblence of compassion.

However, when you meet him in Dragon Age II enough time has passed not to have that excuse anymore, and then he utters that horrible speech at the end of "enemies among us" about how "mages cannot be treated like people, they are not like you and me" and how  "they are weapons", and when (and if) Hawke goes on to defend mages' personhood he answers "many might go their whole lives thinking that". At that moment Cullen ceased to be a character that can be decently identified with. Denying the personhood of another person (let alone a whole group of people) is being well on the path to true evil. On that point one puts oneself in the company of every KKK member, every Khmer Rouge member, and yes, every ****.
Once you have stripped a person (or group) from their personhood in your mind, you can do whatever you want with them and never have to feel remorse - because your victim (and at that point your target cannot be anything else) is, after all, not a person, but a thing (a "weapon") to be used, abused and disposed of as you will.

How can anyone ever see anything romantic about the character of Cullen after that is just beyond me. Please explain this to me, because at this moment the thought of romancing Cullen seems to me almost as appealing as romancing Pol Pot.

Modifié par Kallimachus, 15 mai 2013 - 11:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, if you dig through the Cullen thread on the DA2 forums, I daresay you'll get some kind of answer. I think it has something to do with his turning on Meredith at the end of the game; strangely, the Cullen fans seem to mostly be pro-mage and don't usually overlap with the actual Pol Pot types on this board.

[Tinu]

I rarely chose the templar side, because I believe in freedom for mages. However, this doesn't exclude the fact that I want to romance Cullen. I want to make him see the light, help him get over his fears and embrace what the Maker truly intended.

I believe Cullen has a good heart. What he witnessed in the Circle of Ferelden was very traumatic and many would have not survived the ordeal. Cullen showed determination and courage. I admire those characteristics.

In DA2 he was Knight-Captain, but lived under the tyranny of Meredith. No wonder he voiced those opinions. He had no choice at all. The templars in Kirkwall were rotten and the fact that many templars wanted to change things (Keran, Thrask,...) shows that.

In DA3 I want to guide Cullen to a better path and show him that there are other ways.

Modifié par TinuHawke, 15 mai 2013 - 11:20 .

[Xilizhra]

TinuHawke wrote...

I rarely chose the templar side, because I believe in freedom for mages. However, this doesn't exclude the fact that I want to romance Cullen. I want to make him see the light, help him get over his fears and embrace what the Maker truly intended.

I believe Cullen has a good heart. What he witnessed in the Circle of Ferelden was very traumatic and many would have not survived the ordeal. Cullen showed determination and courage. I admire those characteristics.

In DA2 he was Knight-Captain, but lived under the tyranny of Meredith. No wonder he voiced those opinions. He had no choice at all. The templars in Kirkwall were rotten and the fact that many templars wanted to change things (Keran, Thrask,...) shows that.

In DA3 I want to guide Cullen to a better path and show him that there are other ways.

And there you have it, pretty much: he's damaged and unpleasant enough to require "saving," but a nice enough person overall that it still seems actually logical.

[chuckles471]

Any kind of fandom will have minor characters, that they will obsess over. The characters usually have enough information about them so they aren't a blank slate, but not enough that it will interfere with the ideal that fans have placed on the character. And Cullen hits that sweet spot.

If Cullen is a fully fleshed out main character in the next DA3, just wait for the complaints of "Cullen would never do that", "Cullen isn't mean"etc.etc. The writers won't be able to live up to everybody's ideal.

[Kallimachus]

In DA2 he was Knight-Captain, but lived under the tyranny of Meredith. No wonder he voiced those opinions. He had no choice at all. The templars in Kirkwall were rotten and the fact that many templars wanted to change things (Keran, Thrask,...) shows that. 

You forget one thing: he was sent to Kirkwal by Gregoir because of his extreme opinions, and the fact that Gregoir thaught he might fit in better under Meredith. The fact that there were templars in Kirkwal didn't echo Meredith's opinions, end even worked against her prove that Cullen did indeed have a choice.

[Tinu]

Kallimachus wrote...

In DA2 he was Knight-Captain, but lived under the tyranny of Meredith. No wonder he voiced those opinions. He had no choice at all. The templars in Kirkwall were rotten and the fact that many templars wanted to change things (Keran, Thrask,...) shows that. 

You forget one thing: he was sent to Kirkwal by Gregoir because of his extreme opinions, and the fact that Gregoir thaught he might fit in better under Meredith. The fact that there were templars in Kirkwal didn't echo Meredith's opinions, end even worked against her prove that Cullen did indeed have a choice.

Yes, but he was caged for weeks (or months) and underwent horrible things. Which all of those were performed by mages. It's only normal that his place of thought went back to those dark moments. Sending him to Kirkwall was just plain stupid by Gregoir. How could this benefit Cullen in any way? 

[MisterJB]

I'm not interested in romancing Cullen but I like him just fine and I'm interested in seeing what he becomes in DAI.

I like him because his views on mages are similar to mine. Mages are not people like you and me; they are people but they are different in a way that matters, they are much more dangerous; and it would be irresposible to treat them as if they are just like it would be irresponsible to treat water and acid as if they are the same thing. But that doesn't mean we can't treat them humanely if with extreme caution; Cullen was unsure about the Right of Annulment, for instance.

And I'm interested to see what he becomes in DAI because in DAO he realized how monstruous mages can be; Uldred and his cohorts; but in DAI he then saw that non-mages can be pretty monstruous themselves; Alrik, Karras. So, I'm interested in see what comes out of that.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 mai 2013 - 11:52 .

[Lavaeolus]

Yes, but he was caged for weeks (or months) and underwent horrible things. Which all of those were performed by mages. It's only normal that his place of thought went back to those dark moments. Sending him
to Kirkwall was just plain stupid by Gregoir. How could this benefit Cullen in any way?

Well, it makes him seem like a moderate in comparison.

"Knight-Commander, killing everyone for something none of them did is a poor idea."
"I'm tired of your pro-mage rantings!"

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 15 mai 2013 - 11:53 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

I'm not interested in romancing Cullen but I like him just fine and I'm interested in seeing what he becomes in DAI.

I like him because his views on mages are similar to mine. Mages are not people like you and me; they are people but they are different in a way that matters, they are much more dangerous; and it would be irresposible to treat them as if they are just like it would be irresponsible to treat water and acid as if they are the same thing. But that doesn't mean we can't treat them humanely if with extreme caution; Cullen was unsure about the Right of Annulment, for instance.

And I'm interested to see what he becomes in DAI because in DAO he realized how monstruous mages can be; Uldred and his cohorts; but in DAI he then saw that non-mages can be pretty monstruous themselves; Alrik, Karras. So, I'm interested in see what comes out of that.

Well. Allow me to clarify to the OP: the Cullen romancers don't generally overlap with the Pol Pot types.

[AshenShug4r]

The Cullen of Origins was very easy to dislike, however in Dragon Age 2 I came to like and respect him. If they're basing their opinion off of DA:O Cullen then, that's just weird.

[MisterJB]

Ah, the typical pro-mage inability to argue the Templar Order for its own merits without making some historical reference that, most of the time, makes no sense whatsoever. Unfortunately for you, historical references are not much of arguments.
Tell me, when was the last time people in the real world were able to summon demons?

[Plaintiff]

Because he's physically attractive (in so far as video game characters can be) and emotionally damaged. People want to hold him in their laps and stroke his hair like a sad puppy.

Personally, I don't think he's all that. I realise he's dealing with past trauma, but I don't feel that that excuses bigotry, or kowtowing to Meredith's ridiculous abuses of authority

I'd be more enamoured of him if he'd stood up to her before the very last minute.

If we're going to have a Templar party member, I'd rather have Keran. He's a cutie.

[Catroi]

Because people are naive and think that just because he turns on Meredith right at the end he is a pro-mage...

The guy had no problem obliterating the circle and putting you in jail he just flips the table when he realizes Meredith is just completely nuts and nothing will stop her (survival instinct anyone?).

I hope he mature a LOT in DA:I...

btw, I'm neither pro-mage or pro-templar, in my opinion we should have the choice of killing them all

[Barquiel]

I don't understand the whole Cullen thing either (he was a pretty minor character...and not the most sympathetic one, imo), but if he really wants to help my pro-mage protagonist to kill every templar on sight and topple the institutions that he served...welcome to the party!

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ah, the typical pro-mage inability to argue the Templar Order for its own merits without making some historical reference that, most of the time, makes no sense whatsoever. Unfortunately for you, historical references are not much of arguments.
Tell me, when was the last time people in the real world were able to summon demons?

I'm only using the OP's own term. Not that it takes historical references to show that the Templar Order is both a horrendous atrocity to its own captives and not particularly good at managing its own mandate.

[Kallimachus]

MisterJB, allow me to quote Varric:"Point, missing it..."

I didn't compare the mages to any group on Earth, now or in history. I compared the mindset behind what Cullen said to that of groups from Earth history (and present, and possibly future). And it has nothing to do with history. It has to do with human psychology (and you do admit Cullen is human, right? it says so on his stats!), and that is very simple - once you cease to see a group of people as people (whatever that group may be - it doesn't matter), you have given yourself allowance to do with them whatever you will. And that in and of itself is the source of any and all evil, in this world and any other.
And that is arguing with the Templar Order on their (somewhat lacking) merits.

[Sir George Parr]

He butters many parsnips for some people. But his appeal is utterly lost on me.I just think .

Modifié par XM-417, 15 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[Nole]

simfamSP wrote...

Boba-Fett Syndrome.

lol so true.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm only using the OP's own term.

Which are inadequate and unworthy of the complex situation DA writers have presented and should not be encouraged.

Not that it takes historical references to show that the Templar Order is both a horrendous atrocity to its own captives and not particularly good at managing its own mandate.

Wrong on both accounts but on the interest of not devolving this thread focusing on Cullen into yet another pro-templar and pro-mage slapfight on the very first page, I will refrain from commenting further.

[Monica21]

Catroi wrote...

Because people are naive and think that just because he turns on Meredith right at the end he is a pro-mage...

The guy had no problem obliterating the circle and putting you in jail he just flips the table when he realizes Meredith is just completely nuts and nothing will stop her (survival instinct anyone?).

To be fair, he starts questioning the Order pretty early on. I think in Act 2 he's questioning Meredith's orders versus the Templar mission. So, it's not quite a last minute thing. 

If Cullen is romanceable, then I think a lot of fans are going to be disappointed. This is Bioware after all, and there are no happy endings.

[Xilizhra]

Which are inadequate and unworthy of the complex situation DA writers have presented and should not be encouraged.

If you think that DA is more complex than RL history somehow, I fear you're giving the game far too much credit. Especially since I'm utterly certain that the templars will not win the war, both because the mages are easier to sympathize with by the majority and because it'd be contradictory to all rules of drama (and I believe the reason the mage rebellion exists at all is because the writers wanted a reason to ensure that mages could keep appearing outside the Circle, as it was more interesting that way).

[MisterJB]

Kallimachus wrote...

MisterJB, allow me to quote Varric:"Point, missing it..."

My first post, missing it? I was mostly referring to Xilizhra altough you did also use historycal reference so sure, let's argue away.

I didn't compare the mages to any group on Earth, now or in history. I compared the mindset behind what Cullen said to that of groups from Earth history (and present, and possibly future). And it has nothing to do with history. It has to do with human psychology (and you do admit Cullen is human, right? it says so on his stats!), and that is very simple - once you cease to see a group of people as people (whatever that group may be - it doesn't matter), you have given yourself allowance to do with them whatever you will. And that in and of itself is the source of any and all evil, in this world and any other.
And that is arguing with the Templar Order on their (somewhat lacking) merits.

Ah, but to determine whether a mentality is "evil", we must first analyze what are the subjects of that mentality. If people said that "We should exterminate the Darkspawn.", you would not be so quick to claim this mentality is "the source of any and all evil." would you? Therefore, the group does, in fact, matter.
Which is why using exemples as Pol Pot are inadequate because those people never had to deal with what Theodsians must deal with everyday; such as their neighbors summoning demons from hell.

It is true that dehumanizing someone leads to abuses but Cullen does not actually abuse anyone as far as I remember.

[Xilizhra]

If people said that "We should exterminate the Darkspawn.", you would not be so quick to claim this mentality is "the source of any and all evil." would you? Therefore, the group does, in fact, matter.

If it disregards awakened darkspawn who don't wish to harm others, such as the Messenger... then yes, it continues to be that source.