360 réponses à ce sujet

[Kallimachus]

MisterJB wrote...
Which are inadequate and unworthy of the complex situation DA writers have presented and should not be encouraged.

Wow... arrogant much?

Well... I didn't comment on the "situation" I commented on Cullen, and his psychological make-up. But even if I were, the situation is really not as complex as you make it out to be. I'm sure there are Templars who are not evil (we have even seen some), but they do not deny the personhood of their charges.

[Direwolf0294]

http://tvtropes.org/...oInLeatherPants

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
If you think that DA is more complex than RL history somehow, I fear you're giving the game far too much credit. Especially since I'm utterly certain that the templars will not win the war, both because the mages are easier to sympathize with by the majority and because it'd be contradictory to all rules of drama (and I believe the reason the mage rebellion exists at all is because the writers wanted a reason to ensure that mages could keep appearing outside the Circle, as it was more interesting that way).

No, I definitvely don't think that. Only that the existence of magic in Thedas justifies certain measures which might not be so easibly justifieable were they applied in our world.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
If you think that DA is more complex than RL history somehow, I fear you're giving the game far too much credit. Especially since I'm utterly certain that the templars will not win the war, both because the mages are easier to sympathize with by the majority and because it'd be contradictory to all rules of drama (and I believe the reason the mage rebellion exists at all is because the writers wanted a reason to ensure that mages could keep appearing outside the Circle, as it was more interesting that way).

No, I definitvely don't think that. Only that the existence of magic in Thedas justifies certain measures which might not be so easibly justifieable were they applied in our world.

Yes. measures to protect mages from demons. It is never justifiable to preemptively imprison people because they might be criminals.

[Kallimachus]

MisterJB wrote...

Ah, but to determine whether a mentality is "evil", we must first analyze what are the subjects of that mentality. If people said that "We should exterminate the Darkspawn.", you would not be so quick to claim this mentality is "the source of any and all evil." would you? Therefore, the group does, in fact, matter.

It's been said before, but it's worth repeating: if you deny personhood from AWAKENED darkspawn, yes, you are on the path to evil.

Which is why using exemples as Pol Pot are inadequate because those people never had to deal with what Theodsians must deal with everyday; such as their neighbors summoning demons from hell.

 Well neither do Theodesians. Magic is supposedly so rare that the vast majority of Theodesians would live all their lives without ever encountering a single mage. And even if they would, very few of them would summon anything at all.

It is true that dehumanizing someone leads to abuses but Cullen does not actually abuse anyone as far as I remember.

Except in that he turns a blind eye to those who do. That is evil enough.

[efrgfhnm_]

This is going to end up as a mage vs templars debate isn't it?
OT, Cullen is popular because he has shown the traits that are always popular among certain groups -he's brooding etc - while not being clearly defined so that they can decide that he fits into their favourite character archetypes without being contradicted.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

MisterJB, allow me to quote Varric:"Point, missing it..."

My first post, missing it? I was mostly referring to Xilizhra altough you did also use historycal reference so sure, let's argue away.

I didn't compare the mages to any group on Earth, now or in history. I compared the mindset behind what Cullen said to that of groups from Earth history (and present, and possibly future). And it has nothing to do with history. It has to do with human psychology (and you do admit Cullen is human, right? it says so on his stats!), and that is very simple - once you cease to see a group of people as people (whatever that group may be - it doesn't matter), you have given yourself allowance to do with them whatever you will. And that in and of itself is the source of any and all evil, in this world and any other.
And that is arguing with the Templar Order on their (somewhat lacking) merits.

Ah, but to determine whether a mentality is "evil", we must first analyze what are the subjects of that mentality. If people said that "We should exterminate the Darkspawn.", you would not be so quick to claim this mentality is "the source of any and all evil." would you? Therefore, the group does, in fact, matter.
Which is why using exemples as Pol Pot are inadequate because those people never had to deal with what Theodsians must deal with everyday; such as their neighbors summoning demons from hell.

It is true that dehumanizing someone leads to abuses but Cullen does not actually abuse anyone as far as I remember.

Dehumanizing someone is in itself an abusive act. The Templars engage in abusive behaviour with an alarming regularity, not illegally, like Alrik or Kerras, but as a Chantry-sanctioned aspect of their job. 

You can argue that the Circle system is necessary, that is a subjective matter. You cannot argue that it is not abusive. Not in any intellectully honest way. Abuse is pretty clearly defined, and many of the methods employed by the Templars fall squarely within that definition

You say time and again that the Circle is not a prison, and maybe it's not, but the way it functions is practically identical to a prison, up to and including basic operating techniques (and punishments) that have been outlawed in modern, Western prisons because they are deemed inhumane.

The fact is mages are human, their ability to level buildings with their minds does not make them any less so, and like all humans, they have emotional needs that must be met. More so than regular humans, even, because an emotionally damaged or unstable mind is more vulnerable to demonic possession, not less.

Cullen's mindset, the mindset that underpins the entire Circle system, has served only to breed hatred and resentment among the mages they claim to protect, and rightly so.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 12:48 .

[Commander Kurt]

Why not ask this in the Cullen thread? I asked something similar, and had a very pleasant discussion on the relative hotness of the knight captain.

Regarding the "mages are not people" rant, I like that they went there with him. Having him fully reformed in DA2 would have been a bit silly. Also, his job is to cut down mages who turn to abominations before they can hurt anyone. It's not like a mental hospital guard who might need to use force, it's instantly chopping someone up without thinking twice about it. Not seeing them as "persons" seems like the traditional way to handle such a job description ("traditional" in the sense that soldiers often do that to cope, but templars have it even worse; they have to kill mages they've known and lived with for years), and including stuff like that in the game makes it slightly more "mature" than, for instance, flashing a nipple.

Cullen is a great character. I don't know if he'll be too damaged for me to consider romancing him in future games, but I'm curious to see how they handle him.

[iOnlySignIn]

His appearance and voice makes him quite likely the most attractive male character in the Dragon Age universe so far. The man is practically the Orlando Bloom of Thedas.

While I acknowledge that, it only highlights how vapid and hypocritical his character is. He may be played by Orlando Bloom, but he is written like Jacob Taylor from Mass Effect.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 15 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

His appearance and voice makes him quite likely the most attractive male character in the Dragon Age universe so far. The man is practically the Orlando Bloom of Thedas.

I would've said Sebastian was the most physically attractive male character so far. If only his personality wasn't so god-awful.

People thought Alistair was whiny. Christ.

[SgtElias]

Plaintiff wrote...

If we're going to have a Templar party member, I'd rather have Keran. He's a cutie.

Plaintiff, as usual, has taken the words right out of my mouth. I'd much rather see Keran.

Personally, I'm reserving judgement on Cullen until he actually shows up in Inquisition, if he shows up at all. I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but I won't completely write off a character I haven't interacted with yet, either.

As to why others like Cullen, eh. Your mileage will vary.

[Commander Kurt]

*reads up on the thread*

Do people feel this strongly about Morrigan not caring if she lures templars to their deaths? You don't actually think she sees them as persons in that situation, do you? Varric making killcounts as he mows down bandits? How about your own character in the cases when you seek out a fight in the games? Does s/he see the bandits in the hideouts as persons as s/he barrels through the door dealing death (without even offering cake first, so rude)?

Some of the characters we meet care about these things, most of them do not. I can't relate to it, obviously, but I can certainly understand it. And it's sort of funny how this thread is the first one to really make me think "check your privilege, people", considering who the "mages are people too" advocaters are.

[Sith Grey Warden]

My first Hawke was a mage and sided with the mages. It just felt so contrived then that not only did Cullen oppose killing Hawke, an actual apostate, along with all the law-abiding mages, but he even fought Meredith for it. This is the same man who denies mages are people.

[Commander Kurt]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

My first Hawke was a mage and sided with the mages. It just felt so contrived then that not only did Cullen oppose killing Hawke, an actual apostate, along with all the law-abiding mages, but he even fought Meredith for it. This is the same man who denies mages are people.

I would oppose killing Sickan, my neighbours dog, and even fight someone trying. I still very much deny he's a person.

[Plaintiff]

Commander Kurt wrote...
Do people feel this strongly about Morrigan not caring if she lures templars to their deaths? You don't actually think she sees them as persons in that situation, do you?

Morrigan doesn't care much about anyone besides herself, at least initially.

But the Templars she faces are not innocent picnickers who got lost on their way back to Lothering. They are armed men who walked into the Korcari Wilds with the intention of finding and imprisoning or killing her, or any "witch" they find. She's acting in self-defense to preserve her own freedom, an action I whole-heartedly endorse

Varric making killcounts as he mows down bandits? How about your own character in the cases when you seek out a fight in the games? Does s/he see the bandits in the hideouts as persons as s/he barrels through the door dealing death (without even offering cake first, so rude)?

Again, Varric and Hawke are, most of the time, acting in self-defense, they don't just go around murdering people for fun. And Hawke can be as sensitive or as callous about human life as you want him or her to be, and there are several instances that allow you to resolve things without violence.

The problem with Cullen is that, on paper, his job is as much about protecting mages as it is about protecting mundanes. But that's not how it works in practice. He's not protecting the mages from the abuses of his coworkers, nor does he display any inclination to. His inaction might be excusable if he is truly unaware of what's going on (though that seems highly unlikely), but his attitude is not. His past trauma has made him biased and unable to empathise. Only at the very last minute do we see him take any positive action, and by that point, it's really too late. Depending on Hawke's choice, the mages have either already fled or been slaughtered.

Cullen is a bigot, and unfit for his position. A fact the Chantry would recognize if it wasn't so entrenched in bigotry itself. I wouldn't entrust him with the care of mages any more than I would trust the Westboro Baptists to organize a PFLAG meeting.

[Jean]

I don't have to think he's a good person, agree with his every word, or even like him to be a fan of his character and want to see it evolve more in the next game.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Plaintiff wrote...
If we're going to have a Templar party member, I'd rather have Keran. He's a cutie.

And he's "damaged" as Cullen but that didn't stop him from working with Thrask to get rid of Meredith.

Also Cullen's change of heart at the last minute only makes sense if Hawke is a rouge or a warrior because he says that he thought the Templars were going to arrest Hawke not kill her. I never did understand that change of heart if Hawke is a mage however.  

[Enigmatick]

simfamSP wrote...

Boba-Fett Syndrome.

That and he's an Alistair stand in for fangirls.

[Kallimachus]

I agree with you on the Keran thing. It would indeed be interesting to see him more fleshed out, and he may be a very good companion/LI

And in regards to Cullen, I don't doubt he'll make an appearance in DA3I, I'm just not convinced I want to see the rest of his story as anything more than a non-companion character.

[Volus Warlord]

The irrational enthusiasm for LI's is not to be questioned.

[SafetyShattered]

I don't get it either, i just get a very "meh" vibe from him.

[Palidane]

Cullen: But they haven't resorted to [blood magic], even to save their own lives. Perhaps if we watch them carefully-
Meredith: And if they hope to escape by playing innocent? Would you accept that responsibility, Cullen?
Cullen: Yes. I believe that's what being a templar is all about.

 

Cullen: The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvation. The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here.

I'm not a die hard Cullen fan, but he's the only templar in Kirkwall that doesn't want to cut down every mage on the planet. I respect him for being one of the only sane people in that accursed city, and wouldn't mind him as my Sword-and-Shield warrior in DA3.

Modifié par Palidane, 15 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[Commander Kurt]

Plaintiff wrote...
But the Templars she faces are not innocent picnickers who got lost on their way back to Lothering. They are armed men who walked into the Korcari Wilds with the intention of finding and imprisoning or killing her, or any "witch" they find. She's acting in self-defense to preserve her own freedom, an action I whole-heartedly endorse

But that discussion is different, you're talking about whether or not her actions are justified. We can discuss that in regards to Cullen chopping up mages who have turned abomination, certainly, but the issue was with him dehumanizing those he might be forced to slaughter.

Plaintiff wrote...
Again, Varric and Hawke are, most of the time, acting in self-defense, they don't just go around murdering people for fun. And Hawke can be as sensitive or as callous about human life as you want him or her to be, and there are several instances that allow you to resolve things without violence.

I specified instances where Hawke actively seeks out the killing, I'm actually pretty sure you noticed (I know you're smart). Still, the issue above stands. The actions may be justified, but are bandits regarded as people in the DA world? Yes, you can roleplay someone who does care. Do you?

Plaintiff wrote...
The problem with Cullen is that, on paper, his job is as much about protecting mages as it is about protecting mundanes. But that's not how it works in practice. He's not protecting the mages from the abuses of his coworkers, nor does he display any inclination to. His inaction might be excusable if he is truly unaware of what's going on (though that seems highly unlikely), but his attitude is not. His past trauma has made him biased and unable to empathise. Only at the very last minute do we see him take any positive action, and by that point, it's really too late. Depending on Hawke's choice, the mages have either already fled or been slaughtered.

Cullen is a bigot, and unfit for his position. A fact the Chantry would recognize if it wasn't so entrenched in bigotry itself. I wouldn't entrust him with the care of mages any more than I would trust the Westboro Baptists to organize a PFLAG meeting.

His actions I know nothing about, his attitude is easier to discuss. His unability to empathise is not hinged on his seeing mages as people, surely? I once cried for a lonely lamp in an IKEA commercial after all.

His attitude that mages are not people is a bad thing, I agree, but can you see mages as persons and do the job he does? I understand your point, and you're right. It would be so much better for all if templars could see and treat mages as equals, but is that humanly possible? Concentration camp guards are probably the best comparison we can make (NOT because of the morality of the task performed, but because of the actions the guards are required to undertake), and seeing the "inmates" as human would probably wear off quickly in such a profession. It would have to, for you to do your job and keep your sanity.

[9TailsFox]

[Enigmatick]

Palidane wrote...
I'm not a die hard Cullen fan, but he's the only templar in Kirkwall that doesn't want to cut down every mage on the planet. I respect him for being one of the only sane people in that accursed city, and wouldn't mind him as my Sword-and-Shield warrior in DA3.

Thrask.