360 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No, I meant that "Kerras wuz here Dragon, 9:40" would be scrawled on Alain's back.

On a serious note, in the real world, we don't just throw out rape claims for lack of evidence. They get taken seriously (or rather, are supposed to get taken seriously) even if the victim doesn't provide a beaker of the attacker's semen.

There are other ways to investigate and determine the likelihood of guilt, and if Cullen was to brush Alain off because "For all I know you sat on one of the decorative spikes around Lowtown", he would be not just a bad templar, but a terrible person.

Fine, do suggest some way to prove it's happening. Because we can follow it up all we want but we can't condemn people without evidence.
The best I can think of is setting up a trap to catch him in the act but Meredith would never go for it.

Well, nothing is stopping Cullen from staking out Alain's room in secret, if he can't trust her to treat the case the way it deserves.

He could also try simply asking around. What time does Alain say it happened? Where was Kerras supposed to be? Did anyone see him go? Did anyone see him leave?

This is not a one-off event, this is a frequent occurence over several years. Frankly I'm stunned that Alain didn't pop.

It's not possible that Kerras could be sneaking into Alain's room for so many nights and never be seen.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 08:55 .

[Gregolian]

You guys know rape means more than just what you are all insinuating right?

[MisterJB]

Kallimachus wrote...
I would say that while I love Tolkien, his writings (perhaps because his writing style tries to mimick certain myths) portray characters in a very black and white (more than often very flat way), and are therefore unrealistic and meaningless in this discussion.
Tolkien's world lacks the exact type of complexity you extolled earlier in DA.

But this discussion is not about comparing complexities. You claimed that the mentality of anything should be judged upon its own merits without taking into account the subject of the mentality.
Which is untrue. However realistic it may be; as realistic as magic, I suppose; the orcs exist in Tolkien's universe and if any character from that universe believed that all orcs are evil, well, he would be right which does not necessarely apply to someone who said "All darkspawn are evil." Therefore, the subject in question helps determine the veracity and worth of an ideology.

Even in Tevinter one doesn't encounter a wizard on a daily basis, unless he happens to be very high up in society (or happen to be enslaved by one). Do you want me to say that the system of government in Tevinter is bad? Very well - it's bad. Every bit as bad as the Templar Order's ruling over the circles. But What would that accomplish? Just like in this world you don't just have two options communism and fascism, you do not have to have just two options in Thedas.

But that is completely off topic.

People don't need to encounter magic everyday for its influence to be felt. You took my "neighbor" comment too literally. I will rephrase it: "We, in the real world, never had to deal with a portion of the population being randomly born with supernatural abilities that make them a danger to themselves and others."

And Tevinter is much worse than the Circle. Not only is the mentality vastly different; Templars guard mages because they must while Tevinter just enslaves anyone who can't defend itself; Templars have rules they must obey that protect mages; Magisters can do whatever they wish with slaves since they are considered to be proprierty.
As far as I know, no mage child was ever cut open to entertain guests at the Circles.

I didn't say that, I say that he saw how the rite of tranquility was abused, and how people like Ser Alrik as well as Karras were behaving towards the mages. If rumors of that were trickling to the free populace, Cullen could not have not heard it, unless he didn't want to.

And if he did? What could he have done. Many templars disaproved of Alrik and suspected him of criminal acts; read Elia's letter should she return to the Circle; but what could they do?
For instance, Elia escaped from the Circle. She is not that dangerous and there is a good chance she would have returned to it after seeing her mother. But Alrik caught her. He could just claim she used blood magic to attack them and Meredith would have believed him.
What could any templar do in this situation?

[sandalisthemaker]

Gregolian wrote...

You guys know rape means more than just what you are all insinuating right?

What do you think people here are insinuating?

[Gregolian]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Gregolian wrote...

You guys know rape means more than just what you are all insinuating right?

What do you think people here are insinuating?

That Alain was raped the way most men get raped in prison.

There is the option that the guards in Guantanamo used in the Harold and Kumar movie too.  This is a side effect of me watching way too much Law and Order SVU.



I'll also be honest, I have never force Alain and others to go back to the circle so whenever I saw him at the Gallows he seemed really happy.

Modifié par Gregolian, 15 mai 2013 - 09:04 .

[Tinu]

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

[esper]

Anyway to get back to Cullen. No matter what his actions in the Last Straw is inexcusable to me.

He knows Meridith goes too far, he expressed doubt, about her so he knows it, but does nothing to stop it and in fact only turn on his superior when the person who need it least is in danger.

And then we are not even getting inton the lunacy of the *I thought we would just arrest the champion'. That line means he was either behind arresting a Hawke supporting Meridith or he somehow thought that Hawke wasn't going to get killed when Meridith made it clear that everyone siding with the mages were death.

In the last scenario we even have him protecting the person who more or less harbored the one who actually did the crime, that person might still be alive and on the active team fighting Meridith, which means we have Cullen protecting the only person who Meridith might have an actual reason to want to kill, but not standing up for all those innocent who had nothing to do with the explosion.

After that line, I simply have no respect for the man anymore.

[Melca36]

As someone who liked Cullen in both games, I think people should **wait** until the next comes out before judging him  as well as any of the new characters.

We barely know anything about the game to make any assumption. For all we know Cullen could just be a major NPC, a temporary companion as well as a possible full on companion.  We don't know what direction the writers are taking him.  Theres barely any info about the game let alone characters.

Judge all you want once the game comes out and  you finished it.

[Melca36]

TinuHawke wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

Click on Alain in the gallows. He tells you Karras sneaks into his quarters.

[Melca36]

Gregolian wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Gregolian wrote...

You guys know rape means more than just what you are all insinuating right?

What do you think people here are insinuating?

That Alain was raped the way most men get raped in prison.

There is the option that the guards in Guantanamo used in the Harold and Kumar movie too.  This is a side effect of me watching way too much Law and Order SVU.



I'll also be honest, I have never force Alain and others to go back to the circle so whenever I saw him at the Gallows he seemed really happy.

You obviously did NOT click on him in the Gallows.

[MisterJB]

TinuHawke wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

During the second act, Alain says Karras threatened to make him Tranquil if he told anyone he had been to his quarters and; should you send Grace and the other Starkhaven mages to the Circle rather than help them escape; he says in the third act that the templars ask them to do "things."

The most likely conclusion is that Karras raped Alain.

Plaintiff wrote...
Well, nothing is stopping Cullen from
staking out Alain's room in secret, if he can't trust her to treat the
case the way it deserves.

He could also try simply asking around.
What time does Alain say it happened? Where was Kerras supposed to be?
Did anyone see him go? Did anyone see him leave?

This is not a one-off event, this is a frequent occurence over several years. Frankly I'm stunned that Alain didn't pop.

It's not possible that Kerras could be sneaking into Alain's room for so many nights and never be seen.

That's all circunstancial evidence. No one is condemned because of that.

[Melca36]

[LolaLei]

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No, I meant that "Kerras wuz here Dragon, 9:40" would be scrawled on Alain's back.

On a serious note, in the real world, we don't just throw out rape claims for lack of evidence. They get taken seriously (or rather, are supposed to get taken seriously) even if the victim doesn't provide a beaker of the attacker's semen.

There are other ways to investigate and determine the likelihood of guilt, and if Cullen was to brush Alain off because "For all I know you sat on one of the decorative spikes around Lowtown", he would be not just a bad templar, but a terrible person.

It makes me wonder if Alain ever told Cullen or any of the other mages etc, I think Alain himself says that Kerras told him to keep his mouth shut (don't quote me on that one).

The thing is, Hawke doesn't do anything about it either! After hearing that you'd think we'd have been given the option to go over there and kick some arse (be it Kerras' or any other rapey templar). It makes me wonder if Alain's little outburst is something that only the player is supposed to hear.

Hawke can't do something, unless they catch Kerras in some dark alley (or other place where they can kill him without evidence pointing to them). Hawke have no legal authority over the Cirlce and both are within Circle grounds. If Hawke attempted they would likely get caught, killed and Kerras would still be free to continue.

Edit. To be fair you can blame Hawke, espically if you are female, since when you meet him in Trask quest, Kerras make no attempt to hide what kind of person he is and Hawke has the change to stop him there.

The problem is that if Kerras is killed Alain still gets violated, which means that Kerras was not the only one. And that is not suprising. Rape is about power and it does happen more often in groups where one social group have absolute control over another social group.

Exactly, but we would've had the option if the devs had put it in, lol.

But that's my point, none of us know whether or not Cullen or anyone else knew about the rape/torture going on in the Gallow's because it's never made clear whether he or Meredith are aware of it or not. It's definitely something I hope gets cleared up one way or another in DA3.

[sandalisthemaker]

TinuHawke wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

Ser Karras has to be alive after the Act 1 mission Act of Mercy.
When you talk to Alain after that mission, who is standing outside the gallows, he says that Karras has threatened to make him Tranquil if he tells anyone that Karras was in his room at night. The rape is implied. 

'd
by Melca36

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 15 mai 2013 - 09:11 .

[Melca36]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

TinuHawke wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

Ser Karras has to be alive after the Act 1 mission Act of Mercy.
When you talk to Alain after that mission, who is standing outside the gallows, he says that Karras has threatened to make him Tranquil if he tells anyone that Karras was in his room at night. The rape is implied. 

Actually theres other dialogue thats similar even if Karras is dead.

[DatOneFanboy]

 Lol the thing is, in the end of DO where it has those pictures about what happened it says Cullen Went Insane and killed 3 innocent mages for no reason and escaped from prison  G MFERIN G SON,

[Tinu]

Melca36 wrote...

*snip*

Thank you! Reloading my save as we speak 

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Well, nothing is stopping Cullen from
staking out Alain's room in secret, if he can't trust her to treat the
case the way it deserves.

He could also try simply asking around.
What time does Alain say it happened? Where was Kerras supposed to be?
Did anyone see him go? Did anyone see him leave?

This is not a one-off event, this is a frequent occurence over several years. Frankly I'm stunned that Alain didn't pop.

It's not possible that Kerras could be sneaking into Alain's room for so many nights and never be seen.

That's all circunstancial evidence. No one is condemned because of that.

You're right, it's entirely possible that they're just jumping on the bed. Braiding each other's hair, telling scary stories...

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mai 2013 - 09:16 .

[Sir JK]

I personally think there's one thing that gives Cullen great potential to be a companion, and this is the fact that he's been burned by both sides. He saw what Uldred became and was tortured for who knows how long, saw the weaknesses in the magi and why control is neccessary. But he also saw Meredith and how ultimately her abuse of power made the whole system fall apart, and if there was any form of documentation at all on the abuses in the Gallows... he likely got his hands on those too after the end of DA2.

This is a great set up for a conflict and a crisis of faith, allowing a potential Cullen companion to be someone that player can mold to fit their own view. Convincing him of their view and earning him as a staunch supporter of the new system. Thus, by extent, also standing in as the symbol of the entire conflict and it's future. A great fit for a mage-templar plot that allows a choice. If that will feature.

[LolaLei]

esper wrote...

Anyway to get back to Cullen. No matter what his actions in the Last Straw is inexcusable to me.

He knows Meridith goes too far, he expressed doubt, about her so he knows it, but does nothing to stop it and in fact only turn on his superior when the person who need it least is in danger.

And then we are not even getting inton the lunacy of the *I thought we would just arrest the champion'. That line means he was either behind arresting a Hawke supporting Meridith or he somehow thought that Hawke wasn't going to get killed when Meridith made it clear that everyone siding with the mages were death.

In the last scenario we even have him protecting the person who more or less harbored the one who actually did the crime, that person might still be alive and on the active team fighting Meridith, which means we have Cullen protecting the only person who Meridith might have an actual reason to want to kill, but not standing up for all those innocent who had nothing to do with the explosion.

After that line, I simply have no respect for the man anymore.

To be fair, the whole ending to DA2 didn't really make sense.

[esper]

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No, I meant that "Kerras wuz here Dragon, 9:40" would be scrawled on Alain's back.

On a serious note, in the real world, we don't just throw out rape claims for lack of evidence. They get taken seriously (or rather, are supposed to get taken seriously) even if the victim doesn't provide a beaker of the attacker's semen.

There are other ways to investigate and determine the likelihood of guilt, and if Cullen was to brush Alain off because "For all I know you sat on one of the decorative spikes around Lowtown", he would be not just a bad templar, but a terrible person.

It makes me wonder if Alain ever told Cullen or any of the other mages etc, I think Alain himself says that Kerras told him to keep his mouth shut (don't quote me on that one).

The thing is, Hawke doesn't do anything about it either! After hearing that you'd think we'd have been given the option to go over there and kick some arse (be it Kerras' or any other rapey templar). It makes me wonder if Alain's little outburst is something that only the player is supposed to hear.

Hawke can't do something, unless they catch Kerras in some dark alley (or other place where they can kill him without evidence pointing to them). Hawke have no legal authority over the Cirlce and both are within Circle grounds. If Hawke attempted they would likely get caught, killed and Kerras would still be free to continue.

Edit. To be fair you can blame Hawke, espically if you are female, since when you meet him in Trask quest, Kerras make no attempt to hide what kind of person he is and Hawke has the change to stop him there.

The problem is that if Kerras is killed Alain still gets violated, which means that Kerras was not the only one. And that is not suprising. Rape is about power and it does happen more often in groups where one social group have absolute control over another social group.

Exactly, but we would've had the option if the devs had put it in, lol.

But that's my point, none of us know whether or not Cullen or anyone else knew about the rape/torture going on in the Gallow's because it's never made clear whether he or Meredith are aware of it or not. It's definitely something I hope gets cleared up one way or another in DA3.

This is one of the situation where if you don't know what is going on, but is a superior you are at the very least guilty of not being competent in your job.

Meridith and Cullen are responsible for the templars under them and not knowing is simply no excuse. Because they should have known.

[esper]

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

Anyway to get back to Cullen. No matter what his actions in the Last Straw is inexcusable to me.

He knows Meridith goes too far, he expressed doubt, about her so he knows it, but does nothing to stop it and in fact only turn on his superior when the person who need it least is in danger.

And then we are not even getting inton the lunacy of the *I thought we would just arrest the champion'. That line means he was either behind arresting a Hawke supporting Meridith or he somehow thought that Hawke wasn't going to get killed when Meridith made it clear that everyone siding with the mages were death.

In the last scenario we even have him protecting the person who more or less harbored the one who actually did the crime, that person might still be alive and on the active team fighting Meridith, which means we have Cullen protecting the only person who Meridith might have an actual reason to want to kill, but not standing up for all those innocent who had nothing to do with the explosion.

After that line, I simply have no respect for the man anymore.

To be fair, the whole ending to DA2 didn't really make sense.

It made perfect sense. I don't see it as inconsistent with his character at all. It simply highlighted exactly what kind of character he is, and that is one who is good at surving at the cost of others. He simply knew how good of a fighter Hawke is (after all he has seen it first hand) and switched side in the right moment.

Problem is, I have no sympthahy for that specific kind of turn coat because they make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not at all because they want to live another day.

[esper]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

TinuHawke wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just finished DA2 (for like the 6th time) and haven't found anything about that.
How do you know he got raped?

Ser Karras has to be alive after the Act 1 mission Act of Mercy.
When you talk to Alain after that mission, who is standing outside the gallows, he says that Karras has threatened to make him Tranquil if he tells anyone that Karras was in his room at night. The rape is implied. 

'd
by Melca36

He also repeat in Best Served Cold. That is why he became a blood mage.

[sandalisthemaker]

esper wrote...

He also repeat in Best Served Cold. That is why he became a blood mage.

Oh, I missed that.
Poor Alain. 

[LolaLei]

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No, I meant that "Kerras wuz here Dragon, 9:40" would be scrawled on Alain's back.

On a serious note, in the real world, we don't just throw out rape claims for lack of evidence. They get taken seriously (or rather, are supposed to get taken seriously) even if the victim doesn't provide a beaker of the attacker's semen.

There are other ways to investigate and determine the likelihood of guilt, and if Cullen was to brush Alain off because "For all I know you sat on one of the decorative spikes around Lowtown", he would be not just a bad templar, but a terrible person.

It makes me wonder if Alain ever told Cullen or any of the other mages etc, I think Alain himself says that Kerras told him to keep his mouth shut (don't quote me on that one).

The thing is, Hawke doesn't do anything about it either! After hearing that you'd think we'd have been given the option to go over there and kick some arse (be it Kerras' or any other rapey templar). It makes me wonder if Alain's little outburst is something that only the player is supposed to hear.

Hawke can't do something, unless they catch Kerras in some dark alley (or other place where they can kill him without evidence pointing to them). Hawke have no legal authority over the Cirlce and both are within Circle grounds. If Hawke attempted they would likely get caught, killed and Kerras would still be free to continue.

Edit. To be fair you can blame Hawke, espically if you are female, since when you meet him in Trask quest, Kerras make no attempt to hide what kind of person he is and Hawke has the change to stop him there.

The problem is that if Kerras is killed Alain still gets violated, which means that Kerras was not the only one. And that is not suprising. Rape is about power and it does happen more often in groups where one social group have absolute control over another social group.

Exactly, but we would've had the option if the devs had put it in, lol.

But that's my point, none of us know whether or not Cullen or anyone else knew about the rape/torture going on in the Gallow's because it's never made clear whether he or Meredith are aware of it or not. It's definitely something I hope gets cleared up one way or another in DA3.

This is one of the situation where if you don't know what is going on, but is a superior you are at the very least guilty of not being competent in your job.

Meridith and Cullen are responsible for the templars under them and not knowing is simply no excuse. Because they should have known.

Oh, there's definitely no denying that he's a bit of a rubbish Templar based off his lack of foresight alone! It's certainly something that I'd like to see him punishing himself about in DA3. But does being crap at your job make you a bad person? Not at all.

A fair few of the problems people have with him seems to be down to the game not getting the time it needed to fill in plot holes etc. Hell, a lot of his dialogue seems to contradict itself as it chops and changes throughout the game. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether it was done purposely or not.