360 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

[LolaLei]

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

They are what we have and can discuss his character out off. If you don't like them, you are not discussing his character, but some imaginary character that does not exist.

Fact is Cullen said that line, and turned on Meridith that way and that unless it is retgonned it will always be written in his character. Closign your eyes and saying, bad writing doesn't change the fact that his character did it.

Amazingly enough, it is possible to like a character without agreeing with, or liking, the things he's said or done. Shock horror! 

Regardless, I'm not repeating myself anymore. I've already told you several times that I want answers for the things he's said/done, he's not an angel and nor should he be. Oh, and FYI I never said it was "bad writing" I said that some of his actions (like the oblivious-ness etc) was down to the game not getting enough time, the devs said themselves that they realised they had forgotten to put in certain reactions etc, which is what I was refering to. 

If he's a grade-A jerk then so be it, I still find him an interesting character.

I am not saying that. But you countered my precise explanation of why I didn't like him, with a 'it is just wishy washy' which makes it sound like your are closing your eyes and overlooking things, simply because you like.

If you like him despite it you could simply have said, 'I know that, but I still find him interesting'. That would be fair, I would have accepted that. As it is you simply attempted to counter my in story argument with something completely different.

That action was not oblivioness. It was him turning on Meridith in a way that completely cemented him as unlikeable forever in my mind. He simply crossed one of those specific things, I cannot personally forgive. I have never said anything about wherever I find his character interesting or not.

No, I didn't. I said that I personally felt his actions were wishy-washy due to lack of time spent on the game. I never said you were incorrect or that my opinion was superior or gospel, and if you got that impression from my post then that's down to you, but it certainly wasn't my intention.

Perhaps. It is late here. I mgiht easily have misunderstood you.

But I don't really see the value of your comment then. What where you hoping to get out of it? What point where you making.

He does say that. He does those thing. It doesn't really matter wherever it is whisy washy or not, it is part of his character now. If you find him interesting, you have to take that into account. If you don't really have any comment, on the specific thing I wasn't pointing out then what was the point. Because I am geniually not following your logic here.

Honestly, I've completely lost all comprehension of what we were talking about now it's gone on that long!

But I have said several times now, that I've taken on board all the things he's said and done. It's just my opinion that a fair chunk of it is never really explained or delved into due to time constraints. I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think that I'm hand waving his behaviour when I've already said I'd like answers from him.

Yeahh. I think we have lost the red thread in this specific discussion.

Let's try to bring it back to track. I simply said that I don't like Cullen because of the specific way he turned on Meridith. (I have never said that made him uninteresting to me. I am in this thread discussing him, aren't I?).

I am getting that you find him interesting and think that he could have been more consistant written.

Uhmm... So we are discussion two different things, I think.

Hang on, lemme go back a few pages and I'll work out how it was supposed to tie in with whatever it was we were talking about initally.

[LolaLei]

esper: Ah, I see what happened. We were having two conversations at once about two different things and they mingled into each other.

[esper]

LolaLei wrote...

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

Because of his attitude towards mages, I am personally leading to willfull neglect here. I think that he is willingly to close his eyes as long as too many, just doesn't turn up death or nobody reports to him personally.

Or he is saying. Meridith is condoning this, which must make it right/legal and there is nothing we can do.

[esper]

@Lolei, yeah. Does seem that way. No wonder we got confused then. Well, no harm done.

[LolaLei]

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

Because of his attitude towards mages, I am personally leading to willfull neglect here. I think that he is willingly to close his eyes as long as too many, just doesn't turn up death or nobody reports to him personally.

Or he is saying. Meridith is condoning this, which must make it right/legal and there is nothing we can do.

That's something I'm not sure about myself, he says at the beginning of Act 3 that he promised himself that he'd never question the Order again after his torture in Ferelden etc, but then he starts to question it anyway.

Obviously up until that point he'd followed Orders (whatever they may have entailed), but does that mean that up until that point he was pushing all those little doubts to the back of his head and wanting to believe that the mages deserved their fate etc? So does that count as willfully doing it, or being brainwashed by his Templar upbringing and bad experience.

I guess to an extent he had been brainwashed anyway. I mean, if you're put into the Templar Order at a young age and taught to believe and do certain things without question whilst being pumped full of lyrium then your outlook on life is gonna end up a bit weird anyway.

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 mai 2013 - 11:05 .

[HurricaneGinger]

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

Because of his attitude towards mages, I am personally leading to willfull neglect here. I think that he is willingly to close his eyes as long as too many, just doesn't turn up death or nobody reports to him personally.

Or he is saying. Meridith is condoning this, which must make it right/legal and there is nothing we can do.

That's something I'm not sure about myself, he says at the beginning of Act 3 that he promised himself that he'd never question the Order again after his torture in Ferelden etc, but then he starts to question it anyway.

Obviously up until that point he'd followed Orders (whatever they may have entailed), but does that mean that up until that point he was pushing all those little doubts to the back of his head and wanting to believe that the mages deserved their fate etc? So does that count as willfulling doing it, or being brainwashed by his Templar upbringing and bad experience.

I guess to an extent he had been brainwashed anyway. I mean, if you're put into the Templar Order at a young age and taught to believe and do certain things without question whilst being pumped full of lyrium then your outlook on life is gonna end up a bit weird anyway.

And when you are faced with troubling matters, your viewpoint can change drastically. Or even with a person as extreme and damning as Meredith. I think he believed in Meredith's cause up till the point she drew her sword at Hawke. Or even if Hawke should side with the Templars and save three mages - Cullen notices these mages have not turned to blood magic to save themselves. He may have seen then that some things can't be done.

However, if he KNEW about the rapes and such and just turned a blind eye...<_< I love Cullen, but that's where I draw the line.

[esper]

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

Because of his attitude towards mages, I am personally leading to willfull neglect here. I think that he is willingly to close his eyes as long as too many, just doesn't turn up death or nobody reports to him personally.

Or he is saying. Meridith is condoning this, which must make it right/legal and there is nothing we can do.

That's something I'm not sure about myself, he says at the beginning of Act 3 that he promised himself that he'd never question the Order again after his torture in Ferelden etc, but then he starts to question it anyway.

Obviously up until that point he'd followed Orders (whatever they may have entailed), but does that mean that up until that point he was pushing all those little doubts to the back of his head and wanting to believe that the mages deserved their fate etc? So does that count as willfulling doing it, or being brainwashed by his Templar upbringing and bad experience.

I guess to an extent he had been brainwashed anyway. I mean, if you're put into the Templar Order at a young age and taught to believe and do certain things without question whilst being pumped full of lyrium then your outlook on life is gonna end up a bit weird anyway.

No doubt he has been brainwashed for the lack of a better word.  All the templar have been brainwashed simply due to the mix off lyrium, being told they have divine right over other human beings, and too much power and so forth. Those thing mess with people's head... There is a reason that I dislike the Chantry more than the order.

I also think that the Meridith is mostly to blame for the situation of the Kirkwall Circle and bear most of the neglect (after all she was in top). I just don't think it frees Cullen entirely up, because some templars did due something against Meridith.

Trask's whole project (which many seems to misunderstood) was not anti-circle. It was anti-Meridith. Strictly speaking his group should not have been necessary. He should have been able to go to Cullen and say. 'Meridith is gainign too much seculquar power', but he couldn't because some off Cullen's line indicates that Cullen was not entirely against Meridiths power grab.

That's is why I am leaning towards willfull neglance. I think Cullen simpy wanted the order to work the way it was drilled into him it should work and he purposely closed his eye for the portions of the order that worked like some grutesque nightmare prison.

[esper]

PhantomGinger wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

esper: I don't think he purposely neglects them, but I agree that he seems to be pretty crap at his job which naturally leads to neglect. Whether that's because Meredith had given him far more than he can handle work/title wise and he's just too proud to admit it or if he's slacking and just can't be arsed to do his job properly is anyone's guess.

I mean, you could argue that he stands in the Gallows courtyard all day doing nothing but that's just a game-play mechanic since all the NPCs stand around doing nothing, lol. The problem is that we have no idea what sorts of things Meredith did/or didn't have him doing during his time in Kirkwall.

Because of his attitude towards mages, I am personally leading to willfull neglect here. I think that he is willingly to close his eyes as long as too many, just doesn't turn up death or nobody reports to him personally.

Or he is saying. Meridith is condoning this, which must make it right/legal and there is nothing we can do.

That's something I'm not sure about myself, he says at the beginning of Act 3 that he promised himself that he'd never question the Order again after his torture in Ferelden etc, but then he starts to question it anyway.

Obviously up until that point he'd followed Orders (whatever they may have entailed), but does that mean that up until that point he was pushing all those little doubts to the back of his head and wanting to believe that the mages deserved their fate etc? So does that count as willfulling doing it, or being brainwashed by his Templar upbringing and bad experience.

I guess to an extent he had been brainwashed anyway. I mean, if you're put into the Templar Order at a young age and taught to believe and do certain things without question whilst being pumped full of lyrium then your outlook on life is gonna end up a bit weird anyway.

And when you are faced with troubling matters, your viewpoint can change drastically. Or even with a person as extreme and damning as Meredith. I think he believed in Meredith's cause up till the point she drew her sword at Hawke. Or even if Hawke should side with the Templars and save three mages - Cullen notices these mages have not turned to blood magic to save themselves. He may have seen then that some things can't be done.

However, if he KNEW about the rapes and such and just turned a blind eye...<_< I love Cullen, but that's where I draw the line.

He changed his mind too late. If Hawke side with Meridith, what kind of excuse can Cullen possible give himself to see the purpose behind arresting Hawke (Cullen was apperently not agains that)

And if Hawke side with the mages. How can Cullen excuse defending Hawke to himself there. I mean. How can he even believe that Meridith would only arrest Hawke. Meridith is not the most subtle woman at that point. She makes it very clear that she intents to kill all. For that matter:

The third scenerio. If Anders is spared and helping a pro-mage Hawke. How can Cullen logicall defend his decision to himself, when he is protecting the group who has the bomber, but not protecting the mages who had nothing to do with it. How does he logicall defend that?

The only logic I can see in him turning against Meridith at this point, is that he can see that Meridith have lost it and turns side simply to save his own hide.

I just don't see the morality behind his decision any longer.

Modifié par esper, 15 mai 2013 - 11:13 .

[LolaLei]

esper: See, that's where I feel the writing falls flat. Let's look at it from a pro-mage game to save confusion:

Meredith already said that anyone who supports the mages dies etc, Cullen would have (in theory) heard that, yet when Meredith threatens to kill Hawke he seems genuinely surprised that she was lying to him and actually intended to kill Hawke rather than just arrest him/her.

To me that seems like a script/dialogue inconsistency because he would've heard Meredith originally say that she intended to kill all the mages and their supporters.

[HurricaneGinger]

LolaLei wrote...

esper: See, that's where I feel the writing falls flat. Let's look at it from a pro-mage game to save confusion:

Meredith already said that anyone who supports the mages dies etc, Cullen would have (in theory) heard that, yet when Meredith threatens to kill Hawke he seems genuinely surprised that she was lying to him and actually intended to kill Hawke rather than just arrest him/her.

To me that seems like a script/dialogue inconsistency because he would've heard Meredith originally say that she intended to kill all the mages and their supporters.

I agree, the writing does fall a bit flat concerning a pro-mage Hawke. Cullen does support arresting Hawke, but killing her? I think he may have seen this as an overextension of a templar's duty? I'd wonder if the writing went further and Hawke was a mage, would Cullen support killing her as well, or defending her?

[OdanUrr]

@OP: If it talks, someone will want him/her/it as a companion/LI.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 16 mai 2013 - 12:38 .

[legbamel]

esper wrote...
[enormous snip of shortening]
That's is why I am leaning towards willfull neglance. I think Cullen simpy wanted the order to work the way it was drilled into him it should work and he purposely closed his eye for the portions of the order that worked like some grutesque nightmare prison.

In part I imagine Cullen fresh from an experience in which every horror story the Chantry ever told him came true coming to Kirkwall where his charismatic and attractive new commander accepts and promotes him because he has experienced the same horror of demons and abominations as she has.  I can picture her fostering his fear of mages and trust in the Order over a few years and convincing him time and again that the rumors are just the mages trying to stir up trouble.

There are plenty of instances where Cullen has proof of blood magic use or at least a strong reason to suspect it but Hawke can talk him into showing mercy.  Over time he starts to doubt, one presumes because the sheer weight of those rumors makes it impossible to dismiss them all.  On top of that Meredith starts to slide into paranoia and froot-loop-itude.  All Cullen wants is to be safe and to do the right thing, and what he's been brainwashed into believing is the right thing is really starting to smell.  His illusions are dying hard but you can see some evidence that they are, indeed, being stripped away from him.

Now, not only is there scant evidence of that in the game outside of interpretation and the fact that Meredith is a manipulative, power hungry woman who never should have been placed in her position but I've mixed in so many metaphors that I've lost count.  What I was trying to say is that Cullen has an interesting backstory that almost all happens off-screen.  I'd like to hear more of what happened to him, both in Ferelden and at The Gallows.

I don't give him a pass for turning a blind eye to what was happening around him, but I do empathize that he might have more reason to do so than your average Templar and certainly more reason to go medieval on a mage or two than the ones who actually do.

[LolaLei]

legbamel wrote...

esper wrote...
[enormous snip of shortening]
That's is why I am leaning towards willfull neglance. I think Cullen simpy wanted the order to work the way it was drilled into him it should work and he purposely closed his eye for the portions of the order that worked like some grutesque nightmare prison.

In part I imagine Cullen fresh from an experience in which every horror story the Chantry ever told him came true coming to Kirkwall where his charismatic and attractive new commander accepts and promotes him because he has experienced the same horror of demons and abominations as she has.  I can picture her fostering his fear of mages and trust in the Order over a few years and convincing him time and again that the rumors are just the mages trying to stir up trouble.

There are plenty of instances where Cullen has proof of blood magic use or at least a strong reason to suspect it but Hawke can talk him into showing mercy.  Over time he starts to doubt, one presumes because the sheer weight of those rumors makes it impossible to dismiss them all.  On top of that Meredith starts to slide into paranoia and froot-loop-itude.  All Cullen wants is to be safe and to do the right thing, and what he's been brainwashed into believing is the right thing is really starting to smell.  His illusions are dying hard but you can see some evidence that they are, indeed, being stripped away from him.

Now, not only is there scant evidence of that in the game outside of interpretation and the fact that Meredith is a manipulative, power hungry woman who never should have been placed in her position but I've mixed in so many metaphors that I've lost count.  What I was trying to say is that Cullen has an interesting backstory that almost all happens off-screen.  I'd like to hear more of what happened to him, both in Ferelden and at The Gallows.

I don't give him a pass for turning a blind eye to what was happening around him, but I do empathize that he might have more reason to do so than your average Templar and certainly more reason to go medieval on a mage or two than the ones who actually do.

Pretty much this! ^^^

[frostajulie]

Plaintiff wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

His appearance and voice makes him quite likely the most attractive male character in the Dragon Age universe so far. The man is practically the Orlando Bloom of Thedas.

I would've said Sebastian was the most physically attractive male character so far. If only his personality wasn't so god-awful.

People thought Alistair was whiny. Christ.

This thread is now over You win and victory is yours.<3

[HurricaneGinger]

legbamel wrote...

esper wrote...
[enormous snip of shortening]
That's is why I am leaning towards willfull neglance. I think Cullen simpy wanted the order to work the way it was drilled into him it should work and he purposely closed his eye for the portions of the order that worked like some grutesque nightmare prison.

In part I imagine Cullen fresh from an experience in which every horror story the Chantry ever told him came true coming to Kirkwall where his charismatic and attractive new commander accepts and promotes him because he has experienced the same horror of demons and abominations as she has.  I can picture her fostering his fear of mages and trust in the Order over a few years and convincing him time and again that the rumors are just the mages trying to stir up trouble.

There are plenty of instances where Cullen has proof of blood magic use or at least a strong reason to suspect it but Hawke can talk him into showing mercy.  Over time he starts to doubt, one presumes because the sheer weight of those rumors makes it impossible to dismiss them all.  On top of that Meredith starts to slide into paranoia and froot-loop-itude.  All Cullen wants is to be safe and to do the right thing, and what he's been brainwashed into believing is the right thing is really starting to smell.  His illusions are dying hard but you can see some evidence that they are, indeed, being stripped away from him.

Now, not only is there scant evidence of that in the game outside of interpretation and the fact that Meredith is a manipulative, power hungry woman who never should have been placed in her position but I've mixed in so many metaphors that I've lost count.  What I was trying to say is that Cullen has an interesting backstory that almost all happens off-screen.  I'd like to hear more of what happened to him, both in Ferelden and at The Gallows.

I don't give him a pass for turning a blind eye to what was happening around him, but I do empathize that he might have more reason to do so than your average Templar and certainly more reason to go medieval on a mage or two than the ones who actually do.

[UnderlAlDyingSun]

I really hope the OP is a girl. If not, lay low for a while dude.

[legbamel]

  Why, men aren't allowed to have an opinion about Cullen?

[Plaintiff]

legbamel wrote...

  Why, men aren't allowed to have an opinion about Cullen?

News to me.

[ArcaneJTM]

Cullen is kind of the low hanging fruit where potential companions are concerned. As for LI, if he's a companion then why not? There's no real harm in it, so long as you're not stuck with him or nothing.

[FINE HERE]

OdanUrr wrote...

@OP: If it talks, someone will want him/her/it as a companion/LI.

You mean... there are people that want the talking darkspawn... as a love interest?

[UnderlAlDyingSun]

legbamel wrote...

  Why, men aren't allowed to have an opinion about Cullen?

No, they are. And some men with certain preferences definitely are.

Did you read the post though? I was just thinking out loud with my comment, but I could've just as easily answered my own question...which I'll be doing now

[Dave of Canada]

Cullen represents an interesting divide, he's seen the Circle and the Order at it's best and it's worse. He's no longer some naive rookie, he's experienced and doesn't let hatred cloud his judgement. The potential for what they can do with Cullen is what fascinates me, the character who's trapped in the crossroads between mages and templar without knowing which way is the "correct" way.

He's a minor character who--possibly unintentionally--represents the mage and templar conflict at it's finest, a good window into the universe where we can be presented to his struggle, helping him mold his opinions on either side. While Fenris was nice to represent the anti-mage approach, we've yet to truly have a Templar companion.

In the wake of dividing loyalties and war, the only sane man is interesting.

Edit: That and it's Greg Ellis.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 mai 2013 - 04:38 .