255 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What problem does Vigil solve?

How to take control of the Citadel back from Saren. Of course, that problem isn't introduced until we meet Vigil.

[SpamBot2000]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Er...no. All you do with the codes is open the Citadel arms and stall Sovie, who was already taking his time activating the Citadel relay. It´s very far from Starbrat´s "here are my solutions, **** you if you don´t like them"
Diabolus Ex Machina.

People say that about the little glowy guy, but it really seems that BW meant for us to embrace him as a Deus. And some poor souls do, to a worrying extent.

[The Night Mammoth]

AlanC9 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What problem does Vigil solve?

How to take control of the Citadel back from Saren. Of course, that problem isn't introduced until we meet Vigil.

Well, yeah, basically. It's not a previously unsolvable problem that the introduction of a new character or thing miraculously solves at the last minute in a contrived manner, Vigil introduces the problem and then immediately solves it. 

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to fight them and beat them on her own. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 03:21 .

[Nerevar-as]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Er...no. All you do with the codes is open the Citadel arms and stall Sovie, who was already taking his time activating the Citadel relay. It´s very far from Starbrat´s "here are my solutions, **** you if you don´t like them"
Diabolus Ex Machina.

People say that about the little glowy guy, but it really seems that BW meant for us to embrace him as a Deus. And some poor souls do, to a worrying extent.

How some people defer to its greater wisdom when it´s been commiting genocides for at least tens of millions of years escapes me.

[Clayless]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What problem does Vigil solve?

How to take control of the Citadel back from Saren. Of course, that problem isn't introduced until we meet Vigil.

Well, yeah, basically. It's not a previously unsolvable problem that the introduction of a new character or thing miraculously solves at the last minute in a contrived manner, Vigil introduces the problem and then immediately solves it. 

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to do the work herself. 

Technically Vigil tells you about the problem, the problem you wouldn't have been able to solve, and solves it. Which is slightly different than introducing the problem (if by that you mean causing it).

Shepard still has to do the work, but it doesn't change the fact that if said character didn't suddenly appear from nowhere with no prior warning and solve the unsolvable situation for her, she wouldn't have been able to.

Even the Catalyst, which some people try to pass off as some form of DEM, doesn't suddenly appear from nowhere as you know from near the beginning you need it for the Crucible, has many (5 or 6 I think) Priority missions based around it, and then doesn't actually solve anything, it just gives you info on the things you built.

Modifié par Robosexual, 17 mai 2013 - 03:26 .

[dreamgazer]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to fight them and beat them on her own. 

Where would the plot be without Vigil, or if the conduit had shut down a half hour earlier?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 17 mai 2013 - 03:33 .

[The Night Mammoth]

True, but the main point really is that Vigil's data file was a stalling mechanism meant to give Shepard a chance. It doesn't win the game for the protagonist.

As well as that, the problem Vigil tells you about isn't said to be unsolvable.

[KingZayd]

Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What problem does Vigil solve?

How to take control of the Citadel back from Saren. Of course, that problem isn't introduced until we meet Vigil.

Well, yeah, basically. It's not a previously unsolvable problem that the introduction of a new character or thing miraculously solves at the last minute in a contrived manner, Vigil introduces the problem and then immediately solves it. 

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to do the work herself. 

Technically Vigil tells you about the problem, the problem you wouldn't have been able to solve, and solves it. Which is slightly different than introducing the problem (if by that you mean causing it).

Shepard still has to do the work, but it doesn't change the fact that if said character didn't suddenly appear from nowhere with no prior warning and solve the unsolvable situation for her, she wouldn't have been able to.

Even the Catalyst, which some people try to pass off as some form of DEM, doesn't suddenly appear from nowhere as you know from near the beginning you need it for the Crucible, has many (5 or 6 I think) Priority missions based around it, and then doesn't actually solve anything, it just gives you info on the things you built.

Vigil was always on Ilos, and it seemed to act as soon as it could. The Starchild was apparently on the Citadel, and for some reason did absolutely nothing until the very end.

Vigil makes sense and the Starchild doesn't.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 mai 2013 - 03:35 .

[Clayless]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

True, but the main point really is that Vigil's data file was a stalling mechanism meant to give Shepard a chance. It doesn't win the game for the protagonist.

As well as that, the problem Vigil tells you about isn't said to be unsolvable.

It does solve the unsolvable situation though, with no knowledge of it and no time to solve it Shepard would've lost without Vigil's intervention.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to fight them and beat them on her own. 

Where would the plot be without Vigil, or if the conduit had shut down a half hour earlier?

Where would the plot be without the beacon? Or Shiala? Or Benezia's help? The Conduit was a MacGuffin, and then it became a simple plot device. Vigil is pretty much a DEM, I have to admit. Not as bad because it also introduces the problem it solves, but meh.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 03:58 .

[Nerevar-as]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Plus, it doesn't even resolve the situation, the data file simply stalls Saren and Sovereign, Shepard still has to fight them and beat them on her own. 

Where would the plot be without Vigil, or if the conduit had shut down a half hour earlier?

In the same place as if Shepard had arrived 5 minutes later to Eden Prime? If Benezia hadn´t been able to break free from Indoctrination? Same for the Feros asari. If Liara hadn´t been a Prothean expert? If TIM hadn´t become obsessed with Shepard? If Joker hadn´t stayed behind on the first Normandy? 

:ph34r:Ninja´ed.

And so on. Don´t throw DEM around so fast. And remember that Tropes are not necessarily bad.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 17 mai 2013 - 03:46 .

[dreamgazer]

Nerevar-as wrote...

 Don´t throw DEM around so fast. And remember that Tropes are not necessarily bad.

dreamgazer wrote...

Vigil itself doesn't physically solve the problem.  The Conduit does, which was a mysterious pseudo-MacGuffin from the beginning of the narrative, clarified at the last minute ("The Reapers actually built the relays ... but wait!").  Loopholes dismiss both from the nasty label, despite operating very closely around the general premise. 

Hey, I agree. I'd look into some of the films accused of having Diabolus Ex Machina.  Some pretty prominent pieces of work in there. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 17 mai 2013 - 04:00 .

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

It does solve the unsolvable situation though, with no knowledge of it and no time to solve it Shepard would've lost without Vigil's intervention.

No it doesn't. You yourself admitted earlier that Shepard is the one doing the work, Vigil's file is only stalling Sovereign.

That is, by definition, not "solving the unsolvable problem", not that the problem at hand was ever shown to be or designed as "unsolvable".

Vigil would be a deus ex machina if it had stopped Sovereign without Shepard's help. 

Modifié par o Ventus, 17 mai 2013 - 04:05 .

[mopotter]

iakus wrote...

Well EC is a bad precedent in that it takes a bad ending and replaces it with the same bad ending but more detailed.

Fallout 3: Broken Steel,  Much better precedent

Definitely.  I still play FA3, haven't played ME 2 since I quit 1/2 way through my 3rd play though, why finish when the endings were pick a b or c.  The last DLC may help, when I get the  mod ending it will help even more.

[Clayless]

o Ventus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It does solve the unsolvable situation though, with no knowledge of it and no time to solve it Shepard would've lost without Vigil's intervention.

No it doesn't. You yourself admitted earlier that Shepard is the one doing the work, Vigil's file is only stalling Sovereign.

That is, by definition, not "solving the unsolvable problem", not that the problem at hand was ever shown to be or designed as "unsolvable".

Vigil would be a deus ex machina if it had stopped Sovereign without Shepard's help. 

Vigil solves the unsolvable situation that Shepard wouldn't have been able to, due to lack of knowledge and time.

Shepard is the one doing the work yes, but Shepard isn't the one that solved the unsolvable situation, Vigil did. That's not a contradiction, nor does Shepard doing other things suddenly nullify Vigil solving the situation.

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

Vigil solves the unsolvable situation that Shepard wouldn't have been able to, due to lack of knowledge and time.

Shepard is the one doing the work yes, but Shepard isn't the one that solved the unsolvable situation, Vigil did. That's not a contradiction, nor does Shepard doing other things suddenly nullify Vigil solving the situation.

There's no "unsolvable problem" for Vigil to solve.

In order for Vigil to have been a deus ex machina, it would have had to have defeated Saren and Sovereign without Shepard's assistance.

A deus ex machina isn't just a third-party solving a problem that the protagonist can't, or just about every other side character is a deus ex machina.  

A DEM is defined as a divine force descending to help the hero out of a situation that he or she cannot possibly get out of by themselves (defeating an overpowering antagonist). The "divine force" part is more often reduced in contemporary times (especially now since ME is science fiction), but Vigil doesn't do any of these things.

Vigil doesn't kill Saren, Vigil doesn't make Sovereign posess Saren's corpse, Vigil doesn't kill Sovereign. Literally all Vigil does is stall Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. All of the actual effort put forth into stopping Soverein is done by the protagonist.

[Kel Riever]

Developers are self-justifying morons, for the most part. That's what signs point to.

If they think listening to people who don't like something they do is a bad idea, it pretty much points to that they suck. Then, of course, they go about justifying it with no facts that they desire to show, with giant handwaves of catch phrases like vocal minority and artistic integrity. Hell, they'll use the terms when it is a majority speaking and when there's no art involved.

Buy good games and mock bad ones. You have to laugh at the chicken littles who think they have big ideas and badges on their chest that say 'game developer.'

[dreamgazer]

o Ventus wrote...

Vigil doesn't kill Saren, Vigil doesn't make Sovereign posess Saren's corpse, Vigil doesn't kill Sovereign. Literally all Vigil does is stall Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. All of the actual effort put forth into stopping Soverein is done by the protagonist.

Well, except for physically getting onto the Citadel in time.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreamgazer wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vigil doesn't kill Saren, Vigil doesn't make Sovereign posess Saren's corpse, Vigil doesn't kill Sovereign. Literally all Vigil does is stall Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. All of the actual effort put forth into stopping Soverein is done by the protagonist.

Well, except for physically getting onto the Citadel in time.

Which Vigil has little to do with. It didn't make the Conduti, or activate it, or place it there, and it doesn't control it. All it does is tell Shepard about it, and that's irrelevant since Shepard would have found it without Vigil's help.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 04:36 .

[dreamgazer]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Which Vigil has little to do with. It didn't make the Conduti, or activate it, or place it there, and it doesn't control it. All it does is tell Shepard about it, and that's irrelevant since Shepard would have found it without Vigil's help.

Would Shepard and crew just hop into that thing without any explanation on what it does, where it goes, or how stable it is?

[The Night Mammoth]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Which Vigil has little to do with. It didn't make the Conduti, or activate it, or place it there, and it doesn't control it. All it does is tell Shepard about it, and that's irrelevant since Shepard would have found it without Vigil's help.

Would Shepard and crew just hop into that thing without any explanation on what it does, where it goes, or how stable it is?

Why not? It looks like a Mass Relay, acts like a Mass Relay, and Saren is now nowhere to be found after storming down the one way tunnel with the Conduit at the end. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 mai 2013 - 04:47 .

[Clayless]

o Ventus wrote...

There's no "unsolvable problem" for Vigil to solve.

In order for Vigil to have been a deus ex machina, it would have had to have defeated Saren and Sovereign without Shepard's assistance.

A deus ex machina isn't just a third-party solving a problem that the protagonist can't, or just about every other side character is a deus ex machina.  

A DEM is defined as a divine force descending to help the hero out of a situation that he or she cannot possibly get out of by themselves (defeating an overpowering antagonist). The "divine force" part is more often reduced in contemporary times (especially now since ME is science fiction), but Vigil doesn't do any of these things.

Vigil doesn't kill Saren, Vigil doesn't make Sovereign posess Saren's corpse, Vigil doesn't kill Sovereign. Literally all Vigil does is stall Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. All of the actual effort put forth into stopping Soverein is done by the protagonist.

Analogy time:

"There's the bad guy! He's about to bring about the end of the world! I must stop him!"

*Delivers a series of attacks*

"What? None of my attacks stopped him or did anything?!?"

*Bad guy brings about the end of the world*

----------------------------------------------------

Situation 2:

"There's the bad guy! He's about to bring about the end of the world! I must stop him!"

*A new character suddenly appears from no where with no prior warning*

"You wont be able to stop him, he has an invisible shield you don't know about, you'll need this to take it down. K bye"

*Protaganist takes down shields and delivers a series of attacks*

*Stops bad guy and end of the world*

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Don't you see? The Protaganist doing the things they did doesn't change the fact that the character that appeared from nowhere solved the unsolvable situation. Just because said character didn't resolve the plot doesn't change the fact that they suddenly appeared from nowhere and solved the problem that would've stopped the plot being resolved.

Vigil suddenly appeared from nowhere with no prior warning and solved the unsolvable situation for Shepard. Shepard did things, but that doesn't change the fact that without Vigil solving the situation he wouldn't have been able to.

[dreamgazer]

It's a gray area, guys. You're both somewhat right.

[Reorte]

Vigil only solves a problem that he brought up. Controlling the Citadel was never a problem that the story presented. If Vigil hadn't existed and you just carried on driving through the Ilos archives until you got to the Conduit, had a few comments about "Wow, it's a functioning mass relay!" and drove through it, there wouldn't be an issue. If you then followed the trail of destruction to wind up in the Council chamber, killed Saren, and pressed a few buttons to re-open the arms it really wouldn't have made any difference, we'd just assume it was another piece of technology that Shepard knew how to use that the player doesn't (in the same way as I've not the faintest idea how to operate an omnitool but aren't bothered by Shepard doing so).

Vigil's datafile exists mainly as an excuse to have to visit him to hear his exposition rather than to solve an unsolvable problem.

[Clayless]

Reorte wrote...

Vigil only solves a problem that he brought up. Controlling the Citadel was never a problem that the story presented. If Vigil hadn't existed and you just carried on driving through the Ilos archives until you got to the Conduit, had a few comments about "Wow, it's a functioning mass relay!" and drove through it, there wouldn't be an issue. If you then followed the trail of destruction to wind up in the Council chamber, killed Saren, and pressed a few buttons to re-open the arms it really wouldn't have made any difference, we'd just assume it was another piece of technology that Shepard knew how to use that the player doesn't (in the same way as I've not the faintest idea how to operate an omnitool but aren't bothered by Shepard doing so).

Vigil's datafile exists mainly as an excuse to have to visit him to hear his exposition rather than to solve an unsolvable problem.

Vigil brings up the situation, but he doesn't create it. The problem was there and Vigil appeared from no where and solved it.

The possibility of it being written another way doesn't change that.