Wulfram wrote...
Getting the hell out of there is an entirely logical thing to do when you've just set off what might well be a giant bomb, you don't know what's about to happen and all you're achieving by staying is to get slaughtered by the Reapers.
This is Joker we are talking about, 'the best damn pilot in the galaxy 'If anyone can do it he can, and thats probably exactly what he's thinking. Besides as a pilot he is responsible for all the lives aboard so he is going to try whether its pointless or not.Ticonderoga117 wrote...
wiccame wrote...
They don't know what the beam is going to do to them. Shepard is the only one that knows.
The beam effects the entire galaxy. You can't outrun it.
Modifié par wiccame, 18 mai 2013 - 05:33 .
Ryzaki wrote...
So basically you're arguing that an army of trained military beings along with scientists who worked on the damn thing instead of using reason and logic...
Decide to go with the emotional "Get the hell out of here!" reaction? When said get out of here does nothing but disorganize them and separate them from their allies? (since if that beam's hitting them it's gonna hit em. They can't run from it without the beam being pointless).
Really?
remydat wrote...
Again, all unproven speculation. The Reapers may run or they may not. I don't care. I don't decide to run or not because on whether my enemy will or not.
remydat wrote...
They have never been defeated in billions of years. Never.
There is nothing to suggest which is faster one way or another. Nor is there anything to suggest the Reapers would high tail it and run. Given their general arrogance they may actually not high tail it and run at all.
In any event all of this is pure assumption which again, the natural instinct for an organic is to get out of the way period.
wiccame wrote...
This is Joker we are talking about, 'the best damn pilot in the galaxy 'If anyone can do it he can, and thats probably exactly what he's thinking. Besides as a pilot he is responsible for all the lives aboard so he is going to try whether its pointless or not.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Basic instinct says to not do any of bolded, yet here we are. So, since they are acting on ASSUMPTIONS, why run? We already know it HAS to be faster than Reapers, so running is pointless anyway.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
It's not because "your enemy might run" it's because "my enemy, who is faster than me, has to be outpaced by this weapon".
It's like using a bomb. You can't outrun this thing, and if you can, it's a crap weapon. You are SCREWED because you used a crappy delivery system so why run?
Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 05:38 .
remydat wrote...
I am saying they err on the side of caution. They don't know ultimately how it works. The safe bet is get as far away as possible. They have no proof it will work or that it won't. They have no proof how low it will take to fire or not. They have no proof of anything.
Suppose this thing only takes out the Sol System? Given the Reapers have a large chunk of their forces there that is still a good result but your just sitting there and watching basically kills your entire fleet. Again, what the Reapers do is irrelevant. You do the safe thing.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 05:41 .
remydat wrote...
They run because it is an assumption. And no it doesn't have to be faster than the Reapers. For all we know it will only work in the Sol System which is fine since that is where the bulk of the Reapers are and they gave no indication of running away or retreating.
He doesn't know what the beam will do, he doesn't know if he runs far enough that eventually it will disperse. he just doesn't know. Why just stand around waiting for it to engulf the Normandy when there is absolutely no reason to believe he can't outrun it.Ticonderoga117 wrote...
wiccame wrote...
This is Joker we are talking about, 'the best damn pilot in the galaxy 'If anyone can do it he can, and thats probably exactly what he's thinking. Besides as a pilot he is responsible for all the lives aboard so he is going to try whether its pointless or not.
It has to be able to outpace Reapers... which are two times faster than the Normandy on a good day.
Why run?
There is no reason other than the fact that some writer who really loved that boring and stupid "Planet Eden" metaphor refused, ABSOLUTELY refused, common sense.
remydat wrote...
Again not true. For all we know there is no weapon that can outrun the Reapers. This is all theory. For all we know the people that designed the Crucible were counting on the Reapers arrogance making them slow to retreat because they actually couldn't build a weapon that outruns the Reapers.
wiccame wrote...
He doesn't know what the beam will do, he doesn't know if he runs far enough that eventually it will disperse. he just doesn't know. Why just stand around waiting for it to engulf the Normandy when there is absolutely no reason to believe he can't outrun it.
Ryzaki wrote...
So the abandon half their forces and run on a maybe (and if said thing *doesn't* work they've severely weakened their position). Great.
Actually in bad destroy considering it nukes everything it still gets them and kills them. Running was pointless! It kills their fleet while it's retreating.
What the Reapers do is very relevant considering if they decide to follow you you've now nuked the Sol system for no reason. If they can outrun your weapon it's a crappy weapon. (and if you can outrun it they sure in hell can). There is no safe thing in this scenario. You're stuck hoping for the best.
Also even if they killed all the Reapers in the SOL system the Reapers are STILL better off than they are. Reapers would still win!
Also if it takes a long time to fire the Reapers can simply destroy it in that time (and indeed if you wander around too long they do). So yeah the thing needs to fire fairly quickly.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
This is idiotic. "Let's build a weapon that relies on the killing machines being TOO AROGANT to avoid a BOMB."
Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 05:50 .
remydat wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
So the abandon half their forces and run on a maybe (and if said thing *doesn't* work they've severely weakened their position). Great.
Actually in bad destroy considering it nukes everything it still gets them and kills them. Running was pointless! It kills their fleet while it's retreating.
What the Reapers do is very relevant considering if they decide to follow you you've now nuked the Sol system for no reason. If they can outrun your weapon it's a crappy weapon. (and if you can outrun it they sure in hell can). There is no safe thing in this scenario. You're stuck hoping for the best.
Also even if they killed all the Reapers in the SOL system the Reapers are STILL better off than they are. Reapers would still win!
Also if it takes a long time to fire the Reapers can simply destroy it in that time (and indeed if you wander around too long they do). So yeah the thing needs to fire fairly quickly.
And if it works but just in the Sol sytems some of them surive instead of all of them dying.
You can't control what the Reapers do.
I don't know how many Reapers are in the Sol system but considering they considering protecting the Citadel the prime objecitive and considering all the other races had the ability to aid this final battle instead of being bogged down with their own Reaper wars, the game suggests the bulk of the Reaper forces are laying siege to Earth and protecting the Catalyst. The big dogs like Harby are there as well.
Whether it takes long to fire or not is still unknown. Again, you are interjecting metagame in this. They have no way of knowing any of this as they were not the original designers. It could easily be unavoidable that it takes long to fire.
Look at the end of the day, I think the majority of organics would see a weapon about to fire and get out of the way period. Of all the things to grip about this seems like one of the worst.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 05:50 .
remydat wrote...
If that is the only option then what are you going to do? Not build it and just die.
Further, it could be let's build a weapon and we will have to sacrifice some people as they engage the Reapers keeping them fighting while the rest of us escape the blast.
Once again, this cycle are not the designers of this thing. They have no way of knowing what the thought process was. This is a game so sure we know this thing was built to kill them all but if this was reality, it is entirely possible the thing had severe limitations and would require some maneuvering for it to work.
Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 18 mai 2013 - 05:51 .
Ryzaki wrote...
Oh good. So the bolded should take into accoutn that they might retreat. Good to know.
The bulk sure but the Reapers VASTLY outnumbered the organics. Losing SOL would hit the organics a lot harder than it would the Reapers (not to mention the Reapers can resupply their troops faster).
It *can't* take too long to fire from them retreating. If they leave befor the thing fires the Reapers will just blow it up. They have to stay there til right before the thing fires. That's not metagaming. They can't leave til it starts firing.
Also this "can't know" crap is silly. They have to know some things about the weapon considering they built it.
Majority of trained organics fighting over a planet are gonna panic about a beam and ignoring all reason start running away? Seems a perfectly viable complaint to me.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Think of a better option. There are known Reaper vulnerabilities. Hell, Ceberus hands us one towards the end of the game, and that was a new one!
If this is the best we can come up with, this cycle should just keel over and die.
remydat wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Oh good. So the bolded should take into accoutn that they might retreat. Good to know.
The bulk sure but the Reapers VASTLY outnumbered the organics. Losing SOL would hit the organics a lot harder than it would the Reapers (not to mention the Reapers can resupply their troops faster).
It *can't* take too long to fire from them retreating. If they leave befor the thing fires the Reapers will just blow it up. They have to stay there til right before the thing fires. That's not metagaming. They can't leave til it starts firing.
Also this "can't know" crap is silly. They have to know some things about the weapon considering they built it.
Majority of trained organics fighting over a planet are gonna panic about a beam and ignoring all reason start running away? Seems a perfectly viable complaint to me.
And you can do that by having some forces still engaging the Reapers which some stil are. Some of them have to stay there right before the thing fires not all.
Majority of trained organic fighters will see a weapon about to fire and do what trained organic fighters do when weapons pointed at them are about to fire. Get out of the way. What trained fighter thinks weapons that hit them are not designed to kill?
Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 05:59 .
remydat wrote...
Right come up with another option that magically thousands of other cycles never came up with. The game makes it perfectly clear the only reason you can win in this cycle is because the Crucible ie knowledge passed down from the previous cycles became known to us.
remydat wrote...
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Think of a better option. There are known Reaper vulnerabilities. Hell, Ceberus hands us one towards the end of the game, and that was a new one!
If this is the best we can come up with, this cycle should just keel over and die.
Right come up with another option that magically thousands of other cycles never came up with. The game makes it perfectly clear the only reason you can win in this cycle is because the Crucible ie knowledge passed down from the previous cycles became known to us.
Well if theres a chance of getting screwed in FTL trying to outrun it, or getting screwed just standing still and accepting whatever happens, then there is no reason for him not to try.Ticonderoga117 wrote...
wiccame wrote...
He doesn't know what the beam will do, he doesn't know if he runs far enough that eventually it will disperse. he just doesn't know. Why just stand around waiting for it to engulf the Normandy when there is absolutely no reason to believe he can't outrun it.
Everyone believes this thing will kill Reapers.
This weapon needs to outpace Reapers to actually kill Reapers.
Normandy is slower than Reapers.
Getting screwed in FTL is a death sentence.
wiccame wrote...
Well if theres a chance of getting screwed in FTL trying to outrun it, or getting screwed just standing still and accepting whatever happens, then there is no reason for him not to try.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
wiccame wrote...
Well if theres a chance of getting screwed in FTL trying to outrun it, or getting screwed just standing still and accepting whatever happens, then there is no reason for him not to try.
No no, the "Get screwed in FTL and die" is the 100% certain thing. The wierd beam thing the Crucible puts out is the only maybe.
Drop out of FTL due to damage and you and the entire crew is killed by radiation.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Look how well that "knowledge" worked for them. They were blinded by this. They failed because they couldn't think outside the box. They. Always. FAILED.
The only reason we SUCCEDED, was because the ENEMY ALLOWED us to, ie the writers.
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