185 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Ryzaki wrote...
Then how is the normandy crew fine in the high EMS ending? 

Space magic.

[Ryzaki]

remydat wrote...


That is an opinion not supported by the game.  They succeeded due to the contributions of previous cycles.

And sure the Catalyst ended up helping us but all that really proves is that the Reapers were in fact a near invincible enemy.  That does not prove your hypothetical thinking outside the box would win.  Even the refuse ending makes clear the Crucible is ultimately what saves the cycle after us as Liara's message is found.

The bolded is not true.

That's BW twitter canon.

The refuse ending tells the next race the Crucible didn't work and gives them blueprints of Reapers and such. There's no reason to believe the next cycle wasted time and energy on something they were told didn't work (and they have no way of testing without setting up a flare to the Reapers).

Ticonderoga117 wrote...Space magic.

*puts head in hands* 

They really wanted that stupid adam and eve reference. Goddamn.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2013 - 06:35 .

[remydat]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually considering the Reapers are beating them during the earth scene they can't afford to have any people leave and further weaken their position (only time this becomes somewhat feasible is in the highest ems endings). Even in the best endings the Crucible gets damaged because there's not enough protection so yeah them leaving before it fires is a bad idea. That thing isn't exactly imperious to Reaper fire. If there's less forces the Reapers are free to turn their attentions to the Crucible and blow it up. Leaving is a distinctly bad idea. And by the time it's safe to leave...there's no where to go. If they can outrun it so can the Reapers.

There's no way to get out of the way. It's a bomb. Trying to outrun it just has you die tired. Either you built it so it only kills Reapers or you're screwed too.

The forces on Earth are pinned down no matter what.  Forces were protecting the Crucible until such time that it started to fire.

They built it not knowing what it actually does.  Once it starts to fire some of them get the hell out of there in the event it has limited range.  There is no indication any Reapers actually follow as they are still engaged with forces on earth as well as any organic forces for which the Reapers were blocking their escape.

[Cainhurst Crow]

BulletFMV2413 wrote...

Jafroboy wrote...

I gotta wonder why they didnt swoop down to pick up Shepard, I mean, hes RIGHT THERE if you picked destroy, like, you can literally see the area he was standing.

I agree, i mean the normandy got down to earth during the beam run in 5 seconds so yea it might be close but they should have gave it a shot.

Right there where? In the citadel? Do you suggest the normandy ram right into it to try and pick him up?

[Ticonderoga117]

remydat wrote...
That is an opinion not supported by the game.  They succeeded due to the contributions of previous cycles.

And sure the Catalyst ended up helping us but all that really proves is that the Reapers were in fact a near invincible enemy.  That does not prove your hypothetical thinking outside the box would win.  Even the refuse ending makes clear the Crucible is ultimately what saves the cycle after us as Liara's message is found.

Reaper Invasion plan:
1) Enter Citadel Relay and achieve complete surprise.
2) Take Citadel
3) Shut down all Relays
4) Kick organic ass
5) Profit

Reaper Invasion plan Mk2:
1) Enter from Galatic Rim (Yay! This is the most helpful since we aren't surprised)
2) Faff about in the Galaxy
3) Eventually take the Citadel.
4) Move Citadel to Earth (For the lulz)
5) Don't shoot the giant micorphone shaped thing.
6) Let organics win... because reasons.

[Ticonderoga117]

Ryzaki wrote...
*puts head in hands* 

They really wanted that stupid adam and eve reference. Goddamn.

Yeah, pretty much. Nevermind that dropping out of FTL like that would fry the crew. Nevermind that crashing on a planet and surviving would turn the crew to chunky salsa. Nevermind that THERE IS NO PLANET LIKE THAT IN THE SOL SYSTEM! But to hell with common sense, we're going to shoe-horn this ****ing symbolsim in there because "Symbolism makes it art!"

GAH!

[remydat]

Ryzaki wrote...

The bolded is not true.

That's BW twitter canon.

The refuse ending tells the next race the Crucible didn't work and gives them blueprints of Reapers and such. There's no reason to believe the next cycle wasted time and energy on something they were told didn't work (and they have no way of testing without setting up a flare to the Reapers).

It was pretty clear to me that Liara would have included blueprints for the Crucible as well and that the next cycle would have time to perfect it like the cycles before.  The crucible did not work in previous cycles as well yet this cycle still tries to perfect and build it.  It is also perfectly clear a conventional victory is damn near impossible.  So yes it was clear to me the cycle built the Crucible.  Fine if you arrived at a difference conclusion.

I am not on Twitter so I don't know what Twitter cannon you are referring to.  I am assuming that you are saying Bioware said something on Twitter but I have never seen it.

[remydat]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Reaper Invasion plan:
1) Enter Citadel Relay and achieve complete surprise.
2) Take Citadel
3) Shut down all Relays
4) Kick organic ass
5) Profit

Reaper Invasion plan Mk2:
1) Enter from Galatic Rim (Yay! This is the most helpful since we aren't surprised)
2) Faff about in the Galaxy
3) Eventually take the Citadel.
4) Move Citadel to Earth (For the lulz)
5) Don't shoot the giant micorphone shaped thing.
6) Let organics win... because reasons.

I am not sure the point here.  This seems like a metagame argument when I am discussing an in-universe option.  You thinking the ending is stupid is fine but I have no interest in engaging in that debate. 

I am strictly discussing whether from an in-universe perspective the decision made sense. 

Modifié par remydat, 18 mai 2013 - 06:45 .

[Ticonderoga117]

remydat wrote...
I am not sure the point here.  This seems like a metagame argument when I am discussing an in-universe option.  You thinking the ending is stupid is you choice but I have no interest in engaging in that debate. 

I am strictly discussing whether from an in-universe perspective the decision made sense.  From an in universe perspective organics succeed because of the crucible.  The Catalyst makes this clear.  Leviathan also indirectly makes this clear.

The point is, we only succeded because the enemy was monumentally stupid.

It wasn't because of the Crucible. It wasn't because of luck. It wasn't because of some past civilization throwing a light into the future (Because THAT was wasted). It was purely because the Reapers were stupid.

Even the decision to use only the Crucible, is stupid.
Do we know what it does? No.
Do we know how to finish it? No.
Do we know if it even works? No.
Do we even test it before hand? No.
Do we try anything else? No.

No matter how you cut it, it's a bad idea.

[remydat]

Again that seems more like a metagame. In game Leviathan said the cycles were a solution and an experiment. Part of it's purpose was to reset technology every 50k years. The fact the crucible could be built based on tech that survived the previous cycles proves the solution is not working.

Now from a metagame perspective you are free to find it stupid. However, from an in-game perspective, the Catalyst and Levithan make it clear why the crucible changes things. It is not the weapon itself but the fact that the weapon was built based on designs that should never have made it into this cycle period.

That was effectively the experiment the Catalyst set up ie defeat my solution and the Crucible did so because organics were more resilient than he thought. You are calling it stupid ultimately because you have it in your head that the Reapers had to be defeated. That was our perception of the goal but the Catalyst merely required organics to prove their resilience which they did via the previous cycles getting knowledge to this cycle via the Crucible.

The Catalyst as the designer of the experiment is free to establish the parameters for victory. Those parameters were not defeat the Reapers. You are projecting your parameters onto it.

[Ticonderoga117]

remydat wrote...

Again that seems more like a metagame. In game Leviathan said the cycles were a solution and an experiment. Part of it's purpose was to reset technology every 50k years. The fact the crucible could be built based on tech that survived the previous cycles proves the solution is not working.

Now from a metagame perspective you are free to find it stupid. However, from an in-game perspective, the Catalyst and Levithan make it clear why the crucible changes things. It is not the weapon itself but the fact that the weapon was built based on designs that should never have made it into this cycle period.

That was effectively the experiment the Catalyst set up ie defeat my solution and the Crucible did so because organics were more resilient than he thought. You are calling it stupid ultimately because you have it in your head that the Reapers had to be defeated. That was our perception of the goal but the Catalyst merely required organics to prove their resilience which they did via the previous cycles getting knowledge to this cycle via the Crucible.

The Catalyst as the designer of the experiment is free to establish the parameters for victory. Those parameters were not defeat the Reapers. You are projecting your parameters onto it.

Wow. Just wow. I refuse to tackle that much stupid.

Believe whatever crazy you want, but that doesn't change the fact that everything based around the Crucible, nay, ME3, is beyond common sense.

[remydat]

Right that is a great counter. Agree to disagree would be fine. This is just a lame rebuttal.

[Ticonderoga117]

remydat wrote...

Right that is a great counter. Agree to disagree would be fine. This is just a lame rebuttal.

Well the idea that the Reapers want to test us to see if we can build a big battery, and then allow a dying organic to change the galazy is crazy.

What does following a blueprint say about a species development? That they can read? This is especially non-sensical since the Reapers allowed us to get to this point.

Shut off the relays (like they have always done) and we couldn't build or move it.
Secure the Citadel behind shut off relays and we couldn't dock it.
Shoot the Crucible and it would've been dust.
Not bring Shepard up to the decision room and he would've died next to that panel.

It's just a giant cop out.

And since when do we, as a Galaxy, give a damn about what the Catalyst thinks? Let's shrink the perspective here to Shepard. Why would they care what the Reaper King has to think?

It doesn't matter if this was an experiment (which it wasn't).
It doesn't matter if this was a solution.
We don't like it., that's all that matters.

[remydat]

Leviathan makes clear at 9:30 of the vid that the Catalyst has one purpose ie preservation of life and that the purpose has not been fulfilled. It says, "The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool." It then says the cycles will not end until the Catalyst finds what it is looking for.

You are asking why the Catalyst basically aids Shep in the end and I am telling you because from his perspective which is the only perspective that matters in explaining why he aids us, the battle is already lost.

From the Catalyst's perspective whether he harvests this cycle or not, the battle is lost as the Reapers can't stop information from leaking into the next cycle. This is proven by the fact that if you refuse, the next cycle defeats the Reapers based on the time capsules Liara seeded all over the galaxy.

Once the Catalyst understands he has lost no matter what, there is no reason for him to delay the inevitable into the next cycle.  What would be the point when his aim was never to just randomly kill?

Modifié par remydat, 19 mai 2013 - 02:28 .

[lecho_himself]

remydat wrote...

Once the Catalyst understands he has lost no matter what, there is no reason for him to delay the inevitable into the next cycle.  What would be the point when his aim was never to just randomly kill?

Hmm, maybe because The Catalyst is an AI with "survival" being his only and primary functions when threatened? Remember the talks to EDI about the nature of AI's.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

"Quick! We have to run from the beam that's going to catch us anyway!"

Yeah gotta love that logic.

BSN in action right here.

Do people try to run away from dangerous things even though it's right in front of them? They sure do! Why, I wonder? Maybe they're hoping that they'll get lucky and be able to get away from the dangerous thing before something bad happens!
Wow, using your brain is FUN!

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 19 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

"Quick! We have to run from the beam that's going to catch us anyway!"

Yeah gotta love that logic.

BSN in action right here.

Do people try to run away from dangerous things even though it's right in front of them? They sure do! Why, I wonder? Maybe they're hoping that they'll get lucky and be able to get away from the dangerous thing before something bad happens!
Wow, using your brain is FUN!

Act of desperation isn't exactly logical Brovikk. Not everyone panics in dire situations, or ones percieved to be dire as is the case here.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 mai 2013 - 01:57 .

[remydat]

lecho_himself wrote...
Hmm, maybe because The Catalyst is an AI with "survival" being his only and primary functions when threatened? Remember the talks to EDI about the nature of AI's.

There is no evidence the Catalyst cares about its survival.  It has one directive which is to preserve life at any cost.  Now that it considers its purpose is fulfilled it no longer considers itself necessary.

Not all AIs are the same.

[Ryzaki]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

"Quick! We have to run from the beam that's going to catch us anyway!"

Yeah gotta love that logic.

BSN in action right here.

Do people try to run away from dangerous things even though it's right in front of them? They sure do! Why, I wonder? Maybe they're hoping that they'll get lucky and be able to get away from the dangerous thing before something bad happens!
Wow, using your brain is FUN!

Act of desperation isn't exactly logical Brovikk. Not everyone panics in dire situations, or ones percieved to be dire as is the case here.

Nah it's more fun for Brovikk to try to be clever. Apparently people regardless of training or life experience all run away from things that should be dangerous.

NVM that's exactly what a hell of a lot of people...don't do.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mai 2013 - 06:15 .

[lecho_himself]

remydat wrote...

lecho_himself wrote...Hmm, maybe because The Catalyst is an AI with "survival" being his only and primary functions when threatened? Remember the talks to EDI about the nature of AI's.

There is no evidence the Catalyst cares about its survival.  It has one directive which is to preserve life at any cost.  Now that it considers its purpose is fulfilled it no longer considers itself necessary.

Not all AIs are the same.

As far as I remember, Leviathan referred to The Reapers (thus partially to The Catalyst too) as to AIs created by them to protect all the life. That's my thinking: if The Reapers are basically an AI consensus with their very own primary objective, then The Catalyst will do whatever it takes to secure their success.

I think that this is the way Saren and TIM got indoctrinated - by being convinced to believe that Synthesis / Control are the only ways to win. And if WE know that both of them were indoctrinated, thus we can deduce that both Synthesis and Control were actually ways of indoctrination.

Besides, what makes Controlling / Synthesing Shepard better than Controlling TIM or Synthesing Saren? Won't he be seen in the same way they were if anyone else would know that Commander consideres other option than Destroy?
That's the reason I consider other endings than Destroy as Shepard's defeat.

Modifié par lecho_himself, 19 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ryzaki wrote...
Nah it's more fun for Brovikk to try to be clever. Apparently people regardless of training or life experience all run away from things that should be dangerous.

NVM that's exactly what a hell of a lot of people...don't do.

It is not even a gut reaction, a moment of panic. The fact that they have a rendevous area implies that it's planned.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 19 mai 2013 - 06:19 .

[remydat]

No the Catalyst told them to preserve life at any cost. That was the fundamental problem. AT ANY COST. Just like Shep sacrifices 300K Batarians for the greater good that is what the Catalyst ultimately thinks it is doing.

Sacrifice the Protheans in the last cycle for example so that they don't create an AI that not only kills them but then proceeds to kill the primitives of its cycle ie humans, asari, elcor, volus, salarians, turians, krogan, batarians, drell, vorcha, hannar, etc. All would have been exterminated several cycles ago. They got to live into this cycle becaue of the Catalyst in its twisted opinion.

[lecho_himself]

@remydat
Check my updated comment, I had problems pasting

[Ticonderoga117]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
BSN in action right here.

Do people try to run away from dangerous things even though it's right in front of them? They sure do! Why, I wonder? Maybe they're hoping that they'll get lucky and be able to get away from the dangerous thing before something bad happens!
Wow, using your brain is FUN!

Here, try to run away from a nuclear bomb on foot. You are ten feet away. You have 20 seconds until detonation.

Now, are you really going to try to run from that?

Add in the idea that everyone and thier mother thought this thing was only going to effect the Reapers. Then add in that if you get knocked out of FTL, you WILL die.

There's no reason to run at all.

[Ticonderoga117]

remydat wrote...



Leviathan makes clear at 9:30 of the vid that the Catalyst has one purpose ie preservation of life and that the purpose has not been fulfilled. It says, "The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool." It then says the cycles will not end until the Catalyst finds what it is looking for.

You are asking why the Catalyst basically aids Shep in the end and I am telling you because from his perspective which is the only perspective that matters in explaining why he aids us, the battle is already lost.

From the Catalyst's perspective whether he harvests this cycle or not, the battle is lost as the Reapers can't stop information from leaking into the next cycle. This is proven by the fact that if you refuse, the next cycle defeats the Reapers based on the time capsules Liara seeded all over the galaxy.

Once the Catalyst understands he has lost no matter what, there is no reason for him to delay the inevitable into the next cycle.  What would be the point when his aim was never to just randomly kill?

Well here's your porblem. The kid ****ing kills life. Duh.

And his perspective DOESN'T matter. We aren't trying to help him. He's the enemy! He had thousands of humans melted down into goo and used to build a new Reaper. Why help that? Are you insane? This does not jive!