323 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

We should be entitled who the hell do they think they're selling the game to?
They aren't just creating a game and giving it to us out of the niceness of their heart.
We are paying for it.

I'm not actually accusing you or anyone here of entitlement, so your defensiveness is unwarranted, first of all.

Secondly, nobody is "entitled" to any more than the product they paid for. Bioware made a product. They priced it at an amount they thought was fair, and you paid for it. End of transaction. Bioware doesn't owe you anything further.

You're not satisfied with it. Fair enough. You have every right to express your displeasure about any given product. Appropriately. And if Bioware has every right to ignore you, for any reason that they want. Would that be a smart move on their part? Depends. Some customers give constructive feedback that they can use to improve, other customers (too many) are ranting blowhards who are best ignored.

In the real world, ranting blowhards in cafes and retail stores get thrown off the premises, if not arrested, and frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same online. The internet is not separate from reality. The things you do and say here matter just as much as they do when you're out and about.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 mai 2013 - 02:41 .

[Noctis Augustus]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

So the gamer should have no opinion on what goes into the games he is buying?

The only power you have over games is whether to buy them. Support content you like by paying money for it, and withhold your hard-earned cash if you feel something isn't worth it.

You can have all the opinions you like, developers and publishers can - and will - ignore them, if they feel like there's still a market for their product. 

More to the point, you can certainly *request* that Bioware puts certain content in their games - it's what everyone does, after all - but demanding it? Why would they ever listen to a group of fans who feel *entitled* to, say, ultraviolence, more detailed romance scenes or nudity? Have you considered that senior people at Bioware are uncomfortable with the entire idea? They aren't obliged to listen to you just because you're saying something.

So very true. In business narrow minded individuals never go far though. You have your idea but you should always listen to feedback.

This is why I'm turning my attention to crowd funded projects like Torment, Star citizen and Wasteland 2. At least they take fan feedback into consideration. Inxile Entertaiment actually tells you if they are going to implement gamer's ideas.

[Gamer Ftw]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

We should be entitled who the hell do they think they're selling the game to?
They aren't just creating a game and giving it to us out of the niceness of their heart.
We are paying for it.

I'm not accusing you or anyone here of entitlement, so your defensiveness is unwarranted, first of all.

Secondly, nobody is "entitled" to any more than the product they paid for. Bioware made a toy. They priced it at an amount they thought was fair, and you paid for it.

You're not satisfied with it. Fair enough. You have every right to express your displeasure about any given product. Appropriately. And if Bioware feels you're expressing yourself inappropriately, they have every right to ignore you.

In the real world, storming into a store, cafe or the office headquarters of a company that has drawn your ire, and screaming your demands at them would get you a) thrown out on your ass and likely arrested.

Frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same online. The internet is not separate from reality. The things you do and say here matter just as much as they do when you're out and about.

EXCELLENT.
Ok,I payed for a resolution to the morrigan storyline in witch hunt...
Where can I storm in to scream about that?
Did I get what I paid for?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 18 mai 2013 - 02:40 .

[ElitePinecone]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Why wouldn't they listen? 

Pehaps they have their own opinions on issues like nudity, sex and violence in gaming, which are different to yours. 

You're not going to change any minds at Bioware by repeatedly yelling your own view as though it's the most obvious thing in the world. Attempting to understand why some people would hold other perspectives on these issues surely has to be an important part of trying to convince them to change in later games.

[Plaintiff]

Gamer Ftw wrote...
Ok,I payed for a resolution to the morrigan storyline in witch hunt...

Did you? That's not what I paid for when I purchased Witch Hunt.

Where can I storm in to scream about that?

Nowhere. Screaming is rarely appropriate, and certainly not if you want anyone to listen to or respect your opinion. Aggression rarely gets you want you want, it just makes other people hostile in response. It causes them to be less likely to listen to or respect your opinion, not more.

Did I get what I paid for?

How the hell should I know? Whether or not you "got what you paid for" relies entirely on your personal expectations. I'm perfectly satisfied by the content of Witch Hunt. If you're not, feel free to make a calm and rational complaint through the appropriate channels.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[ElitePinecone]

ibbikiookami wrote...

This is why I'm turning my attention to crowd funded projects like Torment, Star citizen and Wasteland 2. At least they take fan feedback into consideration. Inxile Entertaiment actually tells you if they are going to implement gamer's ideas.

For what it's worth, I *really* like the way that Star Citizen handles fan interaction. They still need to juggle fans simultaneously holding a million different views on the same thing, and ultimately the developes' decision is still paramount, but the openness of communication is a great thing. It's an example of where issues are raised early enough in development that feedback can actually change things. 

[Gamer Ftw]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Why wouldn't they listen? 

Pehaps they have their own opinions on issues like nudity, sex and violence in gaming, which are different to yours. 

You're not going to change any minds at Bioware by repeatedly yelling your own view as though it's the most obvious thing in the world. Attempting to understand why some people would hold other perspectives on these issues surely has to be an important part of trying to convince them to change in later games.

wouldn't that be different THAN yours?
And yeah,people start yelling when they get ignored.
I personally think Origins was an incredible game except the sex scenes.
And in da2 it got even worse.
And how would you speak you mind to someone who doesn't listen then?
even getting a "yeah,thats a valid point of view" would be nice.
If they took a sex scene like in origins and added shadowing like you would see by firelight or candlight they could have concealed the same places and it would be tasteful and add to the mood.
PERFECT SOLUTION.
But no one will listen.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 18 mai 2013 - 02:54 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I personally think Origins was an incredible game except the sex scenes.
And in da2 it got even worse.

DA2 didn't have sex scenes. If you weren't aware, that choice was made intentionally.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 18 mai 2013 - 03:43 .

[Gamer Ftw]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I personally think Origins was an incredible game except the sex scenes.
And in da2 it got even worse.

DA2 didn't have sex scenes. If you weren't aware, that choice was made intentionally.

My little pony sucks.
And I still consider da2 a sex scene do you think they braided each others hair after it faded to black?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 18 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[LinksOcarina]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I personally think Origins was an incredible game except the sex scenes.
And in da2 it got even worse.

DA2 didn't have sex scenes. If you weren't aware, that choice was made intentionally.

My little pony sucks.
And I still consider da2 a sex scene do you think they braided each others hair after it faded to black?

Hey kid, stop attacking people please. You sound a tad foolish here.

Also, what is more important, sex, or intimacy? 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 18 mai 2013 - 04:24 .

[Iakus]

ibbikiookami wrote...

How about if they lose the sex scenes entirely? A "kiss and fade to black" type of situation is fine by me. As long as there's no more ridiculous underwear sex...

I'm perfectly okay with that.

[Volus Warlord]

LinksOcarina wrote...
Hey kid, stop attacking people please. You sound a tad foolish here.

Also, what is more important, sex, or intimacy? 

Sex.

What kind of ridiculous question is that?

[Fast Jimmy]

ElitePinecone wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

This is why I'm turning my attention to crowd funded projects like Torment, Star citizen and Wasteland 2. At least they take fan feedback into consideration. Inxile Entertaiment actually tells you if they are going to implement gamer's ideas.

For what it's worth, I *really* like the way that Star Citizen handles fan interaction. They still need to juggle fans simultaneously holding a million different views on the same thing, and ultimately the developes' decision is still paramount, but the openness of communication is a great thing. It's an example of where issues are raised early enough in development that feedback can actually change things.

Indeed. Bioware used to have a great rep for interacting with their fans in discussion of gameplay mechanics. This still happens occassionally, but, barring Blair and Allan's posting here giving their own view of games (not in a capacity of the actual game being created), these conversations have been relegated to the devs coming down off the mountain to hand out their proclamations. Which is like most developers - I'm not trying to call out Bioware as being any different than, say, Blizzard... but there definitely has been a shift in how things are done over the years.

There is definitely the feeling that the devs have long ago learned everything they can from the forums, so any future conversations are likely just an effort in futility or, in some cases, frustration. Which is a totally understandable viewpoint for them to have - I know I wouldn't be gung-ho about going to a forum on a regular basis where I had the chance of being attacked. Still, without discussion, a developer could EASILY think they understand a fan's complaint or idea adm still implement it in a way that is way off the mark. That's why I think developer interaction on a regular and deep level is a value that has lots of worth to me, personally, as a consumer. 

[LinksOcarina]

Volus Warlord wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Hey kid, stop attacking people please. You sound a tad foolish here.

Also, what is more important, sex, or intimacy? 

Sex.

What kind of ridiculous question is that?

Apparently a very ridiculous one then...

[Gamer Ftw]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I personally think Origins was an incredible game except the sex scenes.
And in da2 it got even worse.

DA2 didn't have sex scenes. If you weren't aware, that choice was made intentionally.

My little pony sucks.
And I still consider da2 a sex scene do you think they braided each others hair after it faded to black?

Hey kid, stop attacking people please. You sound a tad foolish here.

Also, what is more important, sex, or intimacy? 

You sound like a kid,ironic you are calling me one.
Sex is a part of intimacy,and a healthy loving relationship.
To deny that is foolish.
Sex can bring people closer and strengthen a relationship.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 18 mai 2013 - 04:56 .

[SafetyShattered]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ReveurIngenu wrote...

When people have sex, they get naked.  I don't need to see a full out sex scene with penetration.  I do however wish to see realistic portrayals of it (as in both people getting undressed, seeing butt shots or chest shots, etc.).  I don't want to see it because I'm an immature pervert, but because that's what happens!  Nudity is not pornographic or unnecessary or immature, nor is wanting to see it.

What if they don't want to show sex scenes? Is there something "immature" about fading to black?

Seriously. Why do we HAVE to see anything? Bioware hasn't had any graphic sex scenes and they've been just fine without them in my opinion. I mean honestly, is it because you don't know what they're doing when we just have the fade to black thing? Because to me that was always pretty obvious.

Modifié par Shadowfang12, 18 mai 2013 - 04:56 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Shadowfang12 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ReveurIngenu wrote...

When people have sex, they get naked.  I don't need to see a full out sex scene with penetration.  I do however wish to see realistic portrayals of it (as in both people getting undressed, seeing butt shots or chest shots, etc.).  I don't want to see it because I'm an immature pervert, but because that's what happens!  Nudity is not pornographic or unnecessary or immature, nor is wanting to see it.

What if they don't want to show sex scenes? Is there something "immature" about fading to black?

Seriously. Why do we HAVE to see anything? Bioware hasn't had any graphic sex scenes and they've been just fine without them in my opinion. I mean honestly, is it because you don't know what they're doing when we just have the fade to black thing? Because to me that was always pretty obvious.

Because sex isn't something to be avoided. It isn't bad or nasty it's wonderful and people need to deal with that.
And as for fading to black fine but why was my character in bed fully clothed before they did wth was the point of that?
Does anyone lie in bed with all thier clothes on first wth?
And are we going to aviod sex scenes at THE FREAKING BROTHEL TOO?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 18 mai 2013 - 05:06 .

[Volus Warlord]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Hey kid, stop attacking people please. You sound a tad foolish here.

Also, what is more important, sex, or intimacy? 

Sex.

What kind of ridiculous question is that?

Apparently a very ridiculous one then...

Seriously. People are vessels for my personal pleasure. I don't give a damn about their "feelings." Go cry about it.

[Realmzmaster]

It is perfectly okay to voice displeasure with certain content in a game in a civil manner. Developers will listen to their fanbase if the discussion remains civil. Note I said listen to the fanbase that does not mean that the developers have to agree with what you are saying. It does not mean that your suggestions will end up in the game for a variety of reasons.

Yes, developers want to grow the fanbase, but they also want to at least please the fanbase they have.
That is the problem that many gamers had with DA2 it was a big departure in their minds from DAO. So in trying to grow the fanbase the developers alienated the present fanbase that is buying their games.
It does not matter if you grow the fanbase for the long run if you cannot make enough money in the short run. Also any suggestions made to late in development will be ignored unless they are easy to implement.
Expectations differ from person to person. I do not know what one person expects when that person buys a game. I only know what I expect.
If the developer is going in a direction I do not like. I let my opinion be known in a civil manner. The developer has the right to listen or not listen to what I say. I have the right to buy or not buy the product.

[Gamer Ftw]

Realmzmaster wrote...

It is perfectly okay to voice displeasure with certain content in a game in a civil manner. Developers will listen to their fanbase if the discussion remains civil. Note I said listen to the fanbase that does not mean that the developers have to agree with what you are saying. It does not mean that your suggestions will end up in the game for a variety of reasons.

Yes, developers want to grow the fanbase, but they also want to at least please the fanbase they have.
That is the problem that many gamers had with DA2 it was a big departure in their minds from DAO. So in trying to grow the fanbase the developers alienated the present fanbase that is buying their games.
It does not matter if you grow the fanbase for the long run if you cannot make enough money in the short run. Also any suggestions made to late in development will be ignored unless they are easy to implement.
Expectations differ from person to person. I do not know what one person expects when that person buys a game. I only know what I expect.
If the developer is going in a direction I do not like. I let my opinion be known in a civil manner. The developer has the right to listen or not listen to what I say. I have the right to buy or not buy the product.

Or buy the product on amazon after the price goes down to 10 bucks

[Realmzmaster]

renjility wrote...

I think one thing that gives DA2 a rather childish impression instead of mature is how they do want to include a brothel, but treat it more like a laughing stock. The ambient conversations there are primarily silly, and the characters are not dressed as prostitutes. You go talk to Idunna and she is covered from neck to toes, like a noble woman. When Hawke pays for "entertainment" it is again only treated as "ooooh, naughty".

Another example is Sebastian's act 2 quest. There they wanted to show what happens in a house in which the people are completely under the influence of a desire demon. That sex is an aspect that comes up is logical and understandable, but the game chickens out once more and goes for the childish "oh, sex is dirty, that guy is naughty!" with the guy standing there in his trousers and yelling about "the feather".

Conclusion: do it well or don't do it at all. You want to include mature themes, don't try to laugh away its seriousness at the last moment. It only ends up immature and ridiculous.

How do prostitutes dress? There are varying degrees of prositiutes from streetwalkers to high class call women/men. High class call women/men would dress the way Idunna does that is part of the appeal and act. That is what sets them apart from the street walker.

Street walkers are trying to call attention to their wares and are dressed in a way to serve as many customers as possible. Therefore thier clothes are easy to remove and put back on.

Brothels and call women/men expect to be paid much more than the average streetwalker and their clients demand more services from them than the streetwalker.

Men or women picking up streetwalkers are looking for Wham, Bam thank you ma'am or sir.

[Realmzmaster]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

It is perfectly okay to voice displeasure with certain content in a game in a civil manner. Developers will listen to their fanbase if the discussion remains civil. Note I said listen to the fanbase that does not mean that the developers have to agree with what you are saying. It does not mean that your suggestions will end up in the game for a variety of reasons.

Yes, developers want to grow the fanbase, but they also want to at least please the fanbase they have.
That is the problem that many gamers had with DA2 it was a big departure in their minds from DAO. So in trying to grow the fanbase the developers alienated the present fanbase that is buying their games.
It does not matter if you grow the fanbase for the long run if you cannot make enough money in the short run. Also any suggestions made to late in development will be ignored unless they are easy to implement.
Expectations differ from person to person. I do not know what one person expects when that person buys a game. I only know what I expect.
If the developer is going in a direction I do not like. I let my opinion be known in a civil manner. The developer has the right to listen or not listen to what I say. I have the right to buy or not buy the product.

Or buy the product on amazon after the price goes down to 10 bucks

Exactly! Which is what I did for Mass Effect 3 and Kingdoms of Amalur. I am also waiting for Skyrim to drop even more and I may pick that up.