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[CosmicGnosis]

Many people here at BSN believe that Synthesis is an abominable choice, and are frustrated that BioWare presented it as the best choice. Some even think that the favorable presentation of Synthesis suggests that the writers completely lost touch with their own story. Although I like the results of Synthesis, I hate the way it is implemented, and I think Shepard's new Extended Cut dialogue explains the main problem:

"You're asking me to change everything, everyone. I can't make that decision. I won't."

Does the addition of this line suggest that the writers actually are aware of the serious ethical problem of Synthesis? The line is very effective because it exposes the megalomania inherent within the choice. Not even Control gets such criticism from Shepard; he just complains about not wanting to lose everything he has.

Then again, Shepard gives an inspiring "freedom" speech if you choose Refuse, and the result is annihilation. So I suppose you can argue that the writers actually made the entire ending even more morally objectionable.

I created this thread because I recently completed my first Renegade playthrough of ME3, and I had the most frustrating time trying to make Shepard favor the idea of Control. Almost every encounter with the Illusive Man resulted in complete rejection of Control, even as a Renegade. When it comes down to it, BioWare failed to present a compelling argument for Control and Synthesis. And when you have a quote like this from Mac Walters:

"You can't go and find one Reaper who actually turns out to be a good guy… things like, 'Oh, yeah, these Reapers are OK.' People playing the game will hopefully say, ‘Nope. They're as bad as everyone said they are.' You really don't want to be doing anything but killing them."

... what are we supposed to think?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[David7204]

They're certainly aware of it now.

Plenty of players have asked for choices where there is no 'optimal' outcome. Where the story is determined to be ambiguous concerning which choice is 'best.' Well, this is exactly what that looks like. I wonder if this is what they had in mind.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

They're certainly aware of it now.

Plenty of players have asked for choices where there is no 'optimal' outcome. Where the story is determined to be ambiguous concerning which choice is 'best.' Well, this is exactly what that looks like. I wonder if this is what they had in mind.

I sincerely don't think players would mind the idea of conflicted moral issues if the application made more sense, and didn't go against the grain of what the series has emphasized up to that point. 

[David7204]

But that's just it. What if conflicted moral issues by nature fundamentally go against the grain of what the series has established?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I think, for one thing, seeing Refusal ending as an "attack on freedom" is nonsensical -- to say the least. EC changed the ending, not the plot, and the narrative clearly established it was Crucible or bust. The fancy morals-speech is just giving Refuse more importance than its worth.

Anyways, I think the writers may truly have not been aware about the moral issues with Sync, but clearly they were made aware of it (among many other things) after the fans reacted to the ending. In the end, though, I think they still wanted to keep the downsides with all endings, however, to keep the decision "difficult" (if you will).

Thing is, there are ways they could have preserved the integrity of the ending without the arbitrary downsides attached to every option. Sadly, the more I think about it, the more I feel EC was rushed just as ME3 was.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 18 mai 2013 - 04:28 .

[KingZayd]

They didn't want a good option. If there was a good option, then it'd be easy to make a decision you were comfortable with. They wanted you to really think about your decision.

I really do like the end choice. I just think Bioware broke the story trying to incorporate it. And the story was more important.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 mai 2013 - 04:40 .

[iOnlySignIn]

I do not object to Synthesis because it's immoral.

I object to Synthesis because it's nonsensical. In the words of Wolfgang Pauli, it's "not even wrong".

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 18 mai 2013 - 05:07 .

[Phatose]

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
And when you have a quote like this from Mac Walters:

"You can't go and find one Reaper who actually turns out to be a good guy… things like, 'Oh, yeah, these Reapers are OK.' People playing the game will hopefully say, ‘Nope. They're as bad as everyone said they are.' You really don't want to be doing anything but killing them."

... what are we supposed to think?

Woah woah woah.

When did he say this?

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

How so?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

Never was big on the whole messiah thing tbh. Next thing you know people are gonna start calling me "The Shepard" or something

[Phatose]

AresKeith wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

How so?

In 3 out of 4 endings, the Reapers don't die.  In 1 of those endings, we do.  Assuming our own survival is top priority, what other reason remains? 

There is a vast amount of unsupported head-canon going on.  But when you look at the big picture?  Or even the BSN threads?  It comes down to "We will not let the Reapers live.  No matter what."

The Reapers were horrible.  Who's the greater hero?  The one who kills the bad guy, or the one who leads them back to the light?

I'm no Christian, but Jesus said to turn the other cheek.  Why can't we?

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

Never was big on the whole messiah thing tbh. Next thing you know people are gonna start calling me "The Shepard" or something

Tell me another story about The Shepard

[daaaav]

A self indulgent thought experiment did not belong at the end of this story.

Shepards actions themselves should have defined how the tale ended and the scope should have been narrower.

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

How so?

In 3 out of 4 endings, the Reapers don't die.  In 1 of those endings, we do.  Assuming our own survival is top priority, what other reason remains? 

There is a vast amount of unsupported head-canon going on.  But when you look at the big picture?  Or even the BSN threads?  It comes down to "We will not let the Reapers live.  No matter what."

The Reapers were horrible.  Who's the greater hero?  The one who kills the bad guy, or the one who leads them back to the light?

I'm no Christian, but Jesus said to turn the other cheek.  Why can't we?

Because that phrase is harder than it sounds, some people can be forgiven over time

But the Catalyst and Reapers are far beyond forgiveness from the countless cycles of genocide, not everything can be forgiven.

And the Reapers were never in the light to begin with (Sovereign, Harbinger for example)

[spockjedi]

One more reason to shoot the glass tube or to install MEHEM.

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

How so?

In 3 out of 4 endings, the Reapers don't die.  In 1 of those endings, we do.  Assuming our own survival is top priority, what other reason remains? 

There is a vast amount of unsupported head-canon going on.  But when you look at the big picture?  Or even the BSN threads?  It comes down to "We will not let the Reapers live.  No matter what."

The Reapers were horrible.  Who's the greater hero?  The one who kills the bad guy, or the one who leads them back to the light?

I'm no Christian, but Jesus said to turn the other cheek.  Why can't we?

The repeated genocide of the advanced species of the galaxy is a bit more than a slap in the face. Why put the lives of everyone in the galaxy on the line for the Reapers? Is it not your responsibility to protect the people of this galaxy as best you can?

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 mai 2013 - 05:41 .

[Phatose]

AresKeith wrote...

Because that phrase is harder than it sounds, some people can be forgiven over time

But the Catalyst and Reapers are far beyond forgiveness from the countless cycles of genocide, not everything can be forgiven.

And the Reapers were never in the light to begin with (Sovereign, Harbinger for example)

According to Christianity, everybody since Adam has been outside the light since birth.

And according to Christianty, everybody is worth forgiving.

Most Religions share that theme.  And most people don't live up to it.

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because that phrase is harder than it sounds, some people can be forgiven over time

But the Catalyst and Reapers are far beyond forgiveness from the countless cycles of genocide, not everything can be forgiven.

And the Reapers were never in the light to begin with (Sovereign, Harbinger for example)

According to Christianity, everybody since Adam has been outside the light since birth.

And according to Christianty, everybody is worth forgiving.

Most Religions share that theme.  And most people don't live up to it.

Often repentence is a requirement for forgiveness.

[Phatose]

KingZayd wrote...

The repeated genocide of the advanced species of the galaxy is a bit more than a slap in the face. Why put the lives of everyone in the galaxy on the line for the Reapers? Is it not your responsibility to protect the people of this galaxy as best you can?

Is it?

Were I to talk into a prison, decide this inmate is a danger, and kill him, would I be just?
If I were to walk down the street, see a man and decide to kill him for the same reasons, would I be just?

Is deciding that not playing god?  Synthesis fans are much accused of doing so, but I think we all do exactly that.

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because that phrase is harder than it sounds, some people can be forgiven over time

But the Catalyst and Reapers are far beyond forgiveness from the countless cycles of genocide, not everything can be forgiven.

And the Reapers were never in the light to begin with (Sovereign, Harbinger for example)

According to Christianity, everybody since Adam has been outside the light since birth.

And according to Christianty, everybody is worth forgiving.

Most Religions share that theme.  And most people don't live up to it.

I'm Christian, and still not everything is worth forgiving

Repeated accounts of Genocide is wrong

And of course most people don't live up to it, because we view them as guidelines which is what they actually are

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Phatose wrote...

Forgiving those you believe to be innocent is easy.
Forgiving those you believe to be guilty is hard.

Someone who saves a victim is a hero.
Someone who saves a villain? He's the messiah.

That's really what it comes down to.

I ain't no messiah. I'm the Butcher of Torfan.

[Phatose]

AresKeith wrote...

I'm Christian, and still not everything is worth forgiving

Repeated accounts of Genocide is wrong

And of course most people don't live up to it, because we view them as guidelines which is what they actually are

Would Jesus have agreed?

[HiddenInWar]

spockjedi wrote...

One more reason to shoot the glass tube or to install MEHEM.

I still dont understand why shepard would walk towards an explosion.

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I'm Christian, and still not everything is worth forgiving

Repeated accounts of Genocide is wrong

And of course most people don't live up to it, because we view them as guidelines which is what they actually are

Would Jesus have agreed?

I'm not Jesus, so don't even try it