142 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

There was already some denial in overlord and inside the geth conssensus.

[Megaton_Hope]

erezike wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

There was already some denial in overlord and inside the geth conssensus.

That's really not what I'm talking about. While those didn't happen in the same physical space as most of the things that Shepard does, Shepard was still there, an active participant in real events. The proposed change would be like if, after Overlord or the Geth Server mission, Shepard woke up and told everybody about this weird dream he had, where he fought some guy's autistic brother or got uploaded into the internet.

Only for ME3, we'd be talking about erasing weeks or months of Shepard's life, and replacing them with little cardboard cutouts that say "dream/hallucination here" and "none of these things mattered." It's absolutely the worst possible copout.

[Eryri]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

Well, to me, the physical reality of multi-coloured space magic is bad "to a degree that there aren't words for". Even if the sequel were to based on Destroy, the colour of magic I find least thematically offensive, I would still hate the fact that I was playing in a universe where such a thing as Synthesis had even been possible.

I would be prepared to accept quite a bit of hand waving to remove that nonsense, root and branch, from the ME Universe. I'd almost be happier with discovering that Shepard had been in a training simulator the entire time. Fortunately, however, an implementation of indoctrination doesn't need to be anywhere near as drastic. We can just use it to reset everything from Harbinger's beam onwards. All we'd lose would be the very ending of the game, which for me at least is no great loss. 

[Eryri]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Only for ME3, we'd be talking about erasing weeks or months of Shepard's life, and replacing them with little cardboard cutouts that say "dream/hallucination here" and "none of these things mattered." It's absolutely the worst possible copout.

Not at all. If Bioware adopted IT they would only "erase" the very last part of the game. And even if it was "just a hallucination" I feel that it would matter - to Shepard. They represent Shepard either falling to trauma induced insanity / indoctrination, (however you want to view it), or overcoming it and living to fight another day.

The only way we would erase weeks or months of Shepard's life would be in the unlikely event that Bioware wrote off the entirety of ME3 as non-canon, and reset the timeline to the end of ME2. Or decided on a complete re-boot. In which case the events of ME3, wouldn't even exist as a dream or hallucination. They would effectively have never happened at all in the series' ongoing continuity. Now that would be pretty awful, but there's no way Bioware would do something like that in the foreseeable future.

Modifié par Eryri, 19 mai 2013 - 08:22 .

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

Ichi

Ni

San

Haha Your Welcome 

[Megaton_Hope]

Eryri wrote...
Well, to me, the physical reality of multi-coloured space magic is bad "to a degree that there aren't words for". Even if the sequel were to based on Destroy, the colour of magic I find least thematically offensive, I would still hate the fact that I was playing in a universe where such a thing as Synthesis had even been possible.

Well, given that there's this Crucible deal, and the entire game is a race to build and activate it before the Reapers kill everybody, any game set after ME3 has to tackle what it was, what it did, and what happened after that.

Me personally, I strongly dislike where they went with that. Having all the races cooperate to build a single basket to put their eggs in, and then that egg basket summoning the Easter Bunny and the Bunny twitching his nose to destroy the Reapers wouldn't have come out much more sensible. But waving their hands and changing the premise of the game just wouldn't be reasonable; they've got to work with what they've got, more or less.

I would be prepared to accept quite a bit of hand waving to remove that nonsense, root and branch, from the ME Universe. I'd almost be happier with discovering that Shepard had been in a training simulator the entire time.

There'd be no point to such a simulator. There isn't enough known about what Shepard's going to have to do; only the "running around shooting things" parts could realistically be part of a simulation, since that's the only thing where they'd be basing what happens on solid information. And running one continuous simulation with a lot of pauses for conversation and decision-making would be a big waste of everybody's time.

An artificial reality intended to trap Shepard would be a possibility, however, it wouldn't seem to serve a purpose that killing Shepard wouldn't also serve, and it's still a copout, just the same way as if Shepard had dreamed everything from Palaven through jumping in the beam.

My preferred solution:

Just don't talk about the Catalyst and all of that at all in the next game, and talk about how the
Crucible was built and used and what happened when it was used. (Or
don't even talk about what happened, and make it a vague "and the
Reapers were defeated, we began to rebuild, and now something else is
going on instead" and ignore any ending where the Reapers are hanging
around the galaxy being friendly or all life was wiped out.)

[Eryri]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Well, given that there's this Crucible deal, and the entire game is a race to build and activate it before the Reapers kill everybody, any game set after ME3 has to tackle what it was, what it did, and what happened after that.

Me personally, I strongly dislike where they went with that. Having all the races cooperate to build a single basket to put their eggs in, and then that egg basket summoning the Easter Bunny and the Bunny twitching his nose to destroy the Reapers wouldn't have come out much more sensible. But waving their hands and changing the premise of the game just wouldn't be reasonable; they've got to work with what they've got, more or less.

I agree with you there. The Crucible is a terribly lame "win button" at face value. I find it entirely unbelievable that so much effort was but into building it when no one had a clue what it would do. This is why I would prefer the Crucible to be a Reaper designed trap, or even just a distraction to make the Alliance waste their resources. The Alliance were incredibly foolish for trusting this thing would work, and incredibly lucky that it actually did. Similarly the Reapers come across as incredibly incompetent for failing to eradicate its plans, or destroy it during its construction, or strand it safely far away from the Citadel by shutting down the Relays. ME3 seems to be a war between idiots!

But if the Crucible is a trap, then while the Alliance would still be stupid for building it, at least the Reapers regain some of my respect as clever villains. And "the game" as a whole would be less stupid, if you catch my drift, because the "I Win!" button really would turn out to be too good to be true. The Alliance almost deserve to have the Crucible back-fire, and for Harbinger himself to laugh in their faces, for their utter credulity in trusting it. After a bit of soul searching, Shepard could then go on to find some other more satisfying and hard won means of defeating the Reapers. A victory which would be all the sweeter for being against worthy adversaries.

There'd be no point to such a simulator. There isn't enough known about what Shepard's going to have to do; only the "running around shooting things" parts could realistically be part of a simulation, since that's the only thing where they'd be basing what happens on solid information. And running one continuous simulation with a lot of pauses for conversation and decision-making would be a big waste of everybody's time.

Sorry, I was only indulging in a bit of facetious hyperbole with the training simulator thing. It would, of course, be awful. (But still only slightly more horrendous than the ending we have.) 

An artificial reality intended to trap Shepard would be a possibility, however, it wouldn't seem to serve a purpose that killing Shepard wouldn't also serve, and it's still a copout, just the same way as if Shepard had dreamed everything from Palaven through jumping in the beam.

The way I see it, Shepard would be a useful tool to the Reapers, with his knowledge of human military tactics. The Reapers are going to have to work very hard to eradicate every single pocket of resistance in the galaxy. Particularly if the resistance bunkers down and hides, and doesn't attack the Reapers head on. After all the Reapers took a couple of centuries to bring down the Protheans, and even then they failed to find and destroy the Prothean archives on Mars, or Ilos, or Javik's pod on Eden Prime. In order to ferret out these pockets of resistance, they might use indoctrinated sleeper agents, under the command of someone like Shepard. He would also be a useful propaganda tool, seeing Humanity's greatest hero working for the Reapers would be a tremendous psychological blow. 

My preferred solution:

Just don't talk about the Catalyst and all of that at all in the next game, and talk about how the
Crucible was built and used and what happened when it was used. (Or
don't even talk about what happened, and make it a vague "and the
Reapers were defeated, we began to rebuild, and now something else is
going on instead" and ignore any ending where the Reapers are hanging
around the galaxy being friendly or all life was wiped out.)

While I agree that perhaps that would be the most expedient and even the most sensible thing for Bioware to do, I would also find it a bit of a cop-out. I would like to see them at least try to make something a bit more coherent and interesting out of the wreckage of ME3's ending. And even if they don't succeed, I'd like them to make the effort.

Modifié par Eryri, 19 mai 2013 - 10:17 .

[Erez Kristal]

I think destroy and refuse need more propaganda...

Modifié par erezike, 19 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[KingZayd]

AlanC9 wrote...

My point was that the game can't simultaneously be IT and be a reboot. Do those players really not care which one it is? I can't tell myself, obviously, since I hate both of those options.

remake*.

reboot would suggest starting again from ME1.

and both options would involve the endings not really happening, and both would be superior as a result (not necessarily just because of that).

[KingZayd]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

erezike wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

There was already some denial in overlord and inside the geth conssensus.

That's really not what I'm talking about. While those didn't happen in the same physical space as most of the things that Shepard does, Shepard was still there, an active participant in real events. The proposed change would be like if, after Overlord or the Geth Server mission, Shepard woke up and told everybody about this weird dream he had, where he fought some guy's autistic brother or got uploaded into the internet.

Only for ME3, we'd be talking about erasing weeks or months of Shepard's life, and replacing them with little cardboard cutouts that say "dream/hallucination here" and "none of these things mattered." It's absolutely the worst possible copout.

More like replacing 30 minutes at most.

[Eryri]

KingZayd wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

erezike wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

There was already some denial in overlord and inside the geth conssensus.

That's really not what I'm talking about. While those didn't happen in the same physical space as most of the things that Shepard does, Shepard was still there, an active participant in real events. The proposed change would be like if, after Overlord or the Geth Server mission, Shepard woke up and told everybody about this weird dream he had, where he fought some guy's autistic brother or got uploaded into the internet.

Only for ME3, we'd be talking about erasing weeks or months of Shepard's life, and replacing them with little cardboard cutouts that say "dream/hallucination here" and "none of these things mattered." It's absolutely the worst possible copout.

More like replacing 30 minutes at most.

And 30 particularly dull minutes, devoid of any gameplay, at that

[KingZayd]

Eryri wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

erezike wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Anything that denies the physical reality of the preceding games would be bad to a degree that there aren't words for.

There was already some denial in overlord and inside the geth conssensus.

That's really not what I'm talking about. While those didn't happen in the same physical space as most of the things that Shepard does, Shepard was still there, an active participant in real events. The proposed change would be like if, after Overlord or the Geth Server mission, Shepard woke up and told everybody about this weird dream he had, where he fought some guy's autistic brother or got uploaded into the internet.

Only for ME3, we'd be talking about erasing weeks or months of Shepard's life, and replacing them with little cardboard cutouts that say "dream/hallucination here" and "none of these things mattered." It's absolutely the worst possible copout.

More like replacing 30 minutes at most.

And 30 particularly dull minutes, devoid of any gameplay, at that

with dialogue you can't skip :/
That made looking at the other endings even more of a chore.

[Megaton_Hope]

Also doesn't rescue Shepard as a hero if he was indoctrinated, since we know from Benezia that indoctrination doesn't go away.

[masster blaster]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Also doesn't rescue Shepard as a hero if he was indoctrinated, since we know from Benezia that indoctrination doesn't go away.

It's more like Shepard has beaten it this time, the next he, or she may not be as lucky. That's why when Shepard wakes up he, or she is a ticking time bomb. So long as Shepard fights it, and does not give up all hope he/she can stay sain.

[Seival]

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options, so I can't vote.

Modifié par Seival, 19 mai 2013 - 10:43 .

[AresKeith]

Seival wrote...

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options.

Your trolling lost its fire

[AlexMBrennan]

Fallout: Mass Effect sounds good

More like replacing 30 minutes at most.

But that is completely arbitrary - why stop there? Why not rewind the clock back to the start of ME2 and change the retarded resurrection/space!Jesus plot by revealing Shepard to merely have been badly injured in the attack? Of if you don't like the Collectors rewind the clock to Shepard getting crushed on the presidium. Or go back to the beacon on Eden Prime.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 19 mai 2013 - 10:48 .

[Chashan]

Seival wrote...

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options, so I can't vote.

'Inevitable' as in DEx: HR's cyberisation of society in space, good sir?

If so, let's talk.

Modifié par Chashan, 19 mai 2013 - 10:45 .

[Seival]

Chashan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options, so I can't vote.

'Inevitable' as in DEx: HR's cyberisation of society in space, good sir?

If so, let's talk.

The way it will be reached doesn't matter. You can apply Synthesis in the end of ME3, or you can choose Control to apply Synthesis later, or you can delay Synthesis even more by choosing Destroy... 500 years later last ME3 decision will not matter, but save import feature may transfer consequences of some ME Trilogy events to the next story.

This is the only way to make sequel. Any other way will repel a lot of fans.

[Chashan]

Seival wrote...

Chashan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options, so I can't vote.

'Inevitable' as in DEx: HR's cyberisation of society in space, good sir?

If so, let's talk.

The way it will be reached doesn't matter. You can apply Synthesis in the end of ME3, or you can choose Control to apply Synthesis later, or you can delay Synthesis even more by choosing Destroy... 500 years later last ME3 decision will not matter, but save import feature may transfer consequences of some ME Trilogy events to the next story.

This is the only way to make sequel. Any other way will repel a lot of fans.

Which BW don't need to.

If they wish to do their own spin of an increased merging of technology with every-day life in their universe anyway (and row back on some of the more questionable artistic choices they went with for Green), they may as well save themselves the headaches of carrying on the loadout of the ME-trilogy's accumulated plot-flags.
The developers can, in fact, work with the three lowest, common denominators of ME3's end: the cycle finished, the Reapers - by the time the new game starts - removed from the scene and, possibly, the relay-system still not entirely reclaimed.

Since ME3 already goes out of its way to leave back-doors open for certain decisions - not lifting the genophage not amounting to extinction event for the Krogan, entirety of either Quarians/Geth not destroyed above Rannoch and Rachni still present in ME3 regardless of how the remnant queen was dealt with in ME1 - I believe that would be an acceptable compromise. It would then be entirely up to BW how the story unfolds going from there.

[masster blaster]

Seival wrote...

Inevitable Synthesis no matter which ending was chosen - the best way to go.

By the way, the poll lacks some options, so I can't vote.

This is what Mass Effect should have ended if faced with Synthesis alone.

Also this is round two. Synthesis, and Control were the least liked, so bye bye.

Modifié par masster blaster, 20 mai 2013 - 02:53 .

[Malanek]

I don't think they can do a whole game on the IT. I thought it was really clever but the story was at a point where a resolution was needed. An entire game with the galaxy in that state would not be entertaining. It would have made an awesome surprise ending twist but it is time to let it lie now.

[masster blaster]

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't think they can do a whole game on the IT. I thought it was really clever but the story was at a point where a resolution was needed. An entire game with the galaxy in that state would not be entertaining. It would have made an awesome surprise ending twist but it is time to let it lie now.

I'm not. Reason being is because so far Bioware hasn't really talked about ME4, which it's going to be. So until they give us the story, the plot, and the bases of the back ground then I will still believe. Also they can make a game of IT. Remeber the Reap wars in the Prothean cycle lasted for many years. It's hard to say that after Shepard wakes up in Destroy that we can see our choice pay off for real, and find a way up to the citadel. My best guess is Illos. We don't know if the relay on the citadel is destroy, so there is another way on the citadel. Also it means that the crucible is either a Reaper trap, or it does something else than what you saw at the end.

[Eryri]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Also doesn't rescue Shepard as a hero if he was indoctrinated, since we know from Benezia that indoctrination doesn't go away.

We also know from Arrival that rupturing a Relay core will result in a massively destructive supernova...

Except when it becomes inconvient.

This is, after all, soft sci-fi. I think Bioware's reserves of Handwavium are more than sufficient to find a means of curing Shepard's indoctrination if they so choose. I can even even think of a few methods - get a blood transfusion from Shiala or one of the Zhu's hope colonists to infect Shepard with Thorian spores, and admit him to their indoctrination resistant collective. A surviving Rachni queen could intervene telepathically, as could a Leviathan if you have them installed. A living Mordin could synthesise a cure. And if all else fails, Thane or the Virmire Victim could pop down on a cloud and grant a miraculous recovery. (That's even slightly more believable than a universe where "The Shepard" can die for the Galaxy's sins, and usher in the Great Green Cyber-Utopia.)

Perhaps the more of those options you have working together, the more successful the cure. If you have fewer ways to cure Shepard, then he goes on a destructive rampage and murders progressively more of the crew.

EDIT: And if indoctrination really doesn't go away then that rather undermines the Control ending, as not 5 minutes before TIM was using his new reaper based powers to control Shepard like a puppet on strings and force him to shoot his mentor. Shepard would be a dead man walking from that point on as the seeds of indoctrination would almost certainly have been planted. Would you really trust him to be able to control the Reapers after that?

Modifié par Eryri, 20 mai 2013 - 04:54 .

[ref]

Refuse.

While it's probably not popular with lots, I feel it would be the most unique into the future.