17 réponses à ce sujet

[Kimarous]

My Hawke thus far has generally been pro-mage. He's supported the mages on the majority of issues, he's friendlymace'd Merrill, and he's been in good stead with his sister. At this point in the story, he views Bethany as the most important thing in his life alongside his elven bride.

You may note that I haven't mentioned Anders at all. Well, Hawke and Anders don't really get along. It isn't even a Friendly/Rival relationship; it's "avoid you alone unless I need you." I know what happens at the end of the game, and in my head canon, Hawke stabs him in the face before Anders can even try to justify himself, so infuriated is he.

How here's the conundrum... what should my Hawke do? Despite his generally pro-mage attitude in the past, Hawke hasn't been blind to how corrupt the local mages are and can totally understand a good purging, but on the other hand, Bethany is part of the Circle and he REALLY doesn't want her to die. "World be damned; family above all" or hope to sneak her out in the confusion while "doing the right thing"?

[Ferretinabun]

It's gonna be an awkward fit being pro-templar with Bethany in the Circle and a bloodmage as your LI. I've just done a pro-templar playthrough and it was weird enough just having Merril as a companion - having a bloodmage at my side while I killed scores of people in case they were bloodmages? Ummm...

Pro-mage has to make more sense, surely? You've seen a lot of mages go bad, sure, but they've generally always done so because the Templars left them with little choice (or so you can reason).

[MisterJB]

Ferretinabun wrote...

It's gonna be an awkward fit being pro-templar with Bethany in the Circle

I wish they had done more with that option; maybe more meetings with Bethany, she could have been involved with Thrask's group or the mage underground. Even if just to dissuade them.
But the biggest flaw is that when Bethany asks for a non-mage Pro-Templar Hawke to not force her to choose between her people and her family, the game doesn't allow us to make her realize Hawke is in the exact same situation: having to choose between his family (Bethany) and his people (the non-mages of Kirkwall).

Pro-mage has to make more sense, surely? You've seen a lot of mages go bad, sure, but they've generally always done so because the Templars left them with little choice (or so you can reason).

It's a tad more complex than that.
The OP could even rationalize that the mages are fighting an hopeless battle and that he has better chance of ensuring Merril survives by cooperating with Meredith than by having her stand against the Templars.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 mai 2013 - 01:44 .

[caradoc2000]

As a side note: you don't have to kill Bethany even if you side with templars.

But yes, it can be difficult to rationalize siding with templars. In my pro-templar playthroughs, Bethany died in the deep roads.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The templar ending isn't as awful as you might think but even though I'm a generally pro-templar person, I find it's pretty hard to find a strong justification to side with the templars over the mages in this particular instance.

The only reason I could come up with is going with the idea that Meredith and Anders take the decision out of your hands and Hawke believes that annulling the Circle will save the largest number of lives in the long run.

It sounds like the mage ending makes more sense for your Hawke, but it still comes down to if you believe this specific Circle of Magi would be better purged or saved. You can still save the people you care about with a pro-Templar ending.

[LobselVith8]

Kimarous wrote...

My Hawke thus far has generally been pro-mage. He's supported the mages on the majority of issues, he's friendlymace'd Merrill, and he's been in good stead with his sister. At this point in the story, he views Bethany as the most important thing in his life alongside his elven bride.

You may note that I haven't mentioned Anders at all. Well, Hawke and Anders don't really get along. It isn't even a Friendly/Rival relationship; it's "avoid you alone unless I need you." I know what happens at the end of the game, and in my head canon, Hawke stabs him in the face before Anders can even try to justify himself, so infuriated is he.

How here's the conundrum... what should my Hawke do? Despite his generally pro-mage attitude in the past, Hawke hasn't been blind to how corrupt the local mages are and can totally understand a good purging, but on the other hand, Bethany is part of the Circle and he REALLY doesn't want her to die. "World be damned; family above all" or hope to sneak her out in the confusion while "doing the right thing"? 

People have different opinions on the matter. You should really do what feels right to you.

In my view, it never made sense to condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to die for the actions of one single man, or even the criminal acts of a few. It would be no different than condemning every dwarf in Kirkwall for the actions of the carta.

Furthermore, Meredith's only argument for the Right of Annulment is killing every mage in Kirkwall to appease a hypothetical mob; I had no interest in condemning hundreds of people who are innocent of Anders' actions for a tyrant who illegally seized power and had a death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight.

We also know there are bad guys on both sides, so the criminals aren't simply limited to some of the mages. We know that there are criminals among Meredith's own order who have been beating, torturing, raping, and killing mages in the Circle of Kirkwall, as well as making some of them tranquil illegally (like Anders' first love Karl). The former Starkhaven mage Alain joins Ser Thrask and his efforts to depose Meredith's dictatorship because of the "nightly visits" the templars paid him. Some templars tortured a child of the Sabare clan to extract information about Feynriel.

Regardless, do what feels right to your Champion. Protecting the mages made sense to me in the end. Do what makes sense for your protagonist.

[twilekaoi]

Bethany is one of my favorite companions as well, and I think Merril is adorable... In your case, choosing the mages would be consistent with your Hawke.

Both sides have rights and wrongs, so it's really up to your emotional investment to weigh in on who to support. That said, Circle Bethany and LI Merril should be more than enough. Supporting a blood mage _and_ the Templars just seems too hypocritical to make sense, in all honesty.

On my own play through, I've supported both Meredith and Orsino equally-- but eventually sided with the mages because of Bethany. IMO probably not the best choice for the rest of Thedas, but my Hawke will stand by her heavily biased decision regardless.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 20 mai 2013 - 12:57 .

[twilekaoi]

caradoc2000 wrote...

As a side note: you don't have to kill Bethany even if you side with templars.

True, but the player doesn't know that until that very moment. That sort of belittles the decision on who to support since the thought of killing their own sibling plays a big part in the decision process.

[Ryzaki]

Not...really. Hawke can save random mages. Not being able to save his/her own sister would be silly.

[twilekaoi]

The random mages who surrender, right? That's actually also after the decision process. I chose the mages but after experiencing the Templar ending, I would've done that instead. But I don't retcon my original decision even knowing that in the Templar ending, you can spare surrendered Mages and Bethany.

On a first play through the player doesn't know that so... the belittlement still stands, really.

[Hazegurl]

I say go pro Templar, more for dramatics of having Bethany in the circle. I was on pins and needles during those events out of fear of what would happen to her. I also find Bethany more emotional, naturally when you choose Meredith. The scenes between them are actually done very well.

As for how to role play, it's up to you. I was also promage during most of my first playthrough, then had enough around the time Bethany was taken. I thought of it as making the hard choice for the good the city and that hawke couldn't allow his feelings for Bethany to cloud his judgement.  But he still loved her dearly and wanted to get to her as fast as he could.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 20 mai 2013 - 04:01 .

[DPSSOC]

Kimarous wrote...
How here's the conundrum... what should my Hawke do? Despite his generally pro-mage attitude in the past, Hawke hasn't been blind to how corrupt the local mages are and can totally understand a good purging, but on the other hand, Bethany is part of the Circle and he REALLY doesn't want her to die. "World be damned; family above all" or hope to sneak her out in the confusion while "doing the right thing"?

Well it really boils to where your Hawke's values lie.  Are the lives of the innocent mages worth letting the bad ones go?  If not then is Bethany's life?  How many truly innocent mages do you believe are in the Circle (my guess is 6)?  You really just have to decide where your Hawke's line is drawn.

[ComfortablyNumb]

As everybody above said - it really depends on who your Hawke is and what his priorities are.

My first Hawke sided with mages. He was a mage himself, so it was sort of natural.

But it was only during my second playthrough, that I found a letter signed "O", during "All that remains".
That Hawke snapped, when he found out that Orsino knew about Quentin's experiments. And as a result, his private bias made him side with Templars (even though Bethany was in the Circle).

[ComfortablyNumb]

Ferretinabun wrote...

I've just done a pro-templar playthrough and it was weird enough just having Merril as a companion - having a bloodmage at my side while I killed scores of people in case they were bloodmages? Ummm...

See, that's the beauty of RPGing - each has different perspective.
In my last game Hawke wasn't really pro-anything, other that people stop being idiots (be it mages or templars). As a result, he tried to convice Merril to give up blood magic (he saw it as a too big risk). 
I ended up with 100% rivarly with her, sided with templars at the end and she actually thanked me for trying to set her "straight" and be for her despite her mistakes... 

Modifié par mrufka_z, 20 mai 2013 - 10:01 .

[Ferretinabun]

mrufka_z wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

I've just done a pro-templar playthrough and it was weird enough just having Merril as a companion - having a bloodmage at my side while I killed scores of people in case they were bloodmages? Ummm...

See, that's the beauty of RPGing - each has different perspective.
In my last game Hawke wasn't really pro-anything, other that people stop being idiots (be it mages or templars). As a result, he tried to convice Merril to give up blood magic (he saw it as a too big risk). 
I ended up with 100% rivarly with her, sided with templars at the end and she actually thanked me for trying to set her "straight" and be for her despite her mistakes... 

In fairness (and just to contradict my earlier post) the game does actually hand you a servicable explanation for Merrill to accompany a pro-Templar Hawke. Can't remember the exact phrasing, but when you side with Meredith and Merrill objects, Hawke says something along the lines of "It's out of our hands now. We can't stop the purge. All we can do is try to ensure it goes as swiftly as possible to minimise casualties" or words to that effect.

But I still say Circle Bethany's a problem. Which is why I tend to lose her to the Darkspawn/Wardens on pro-Templar playthroughs.

[Ryzaki]

twilekaoi wrote...

The random mages who surrender, right? That's actually also after the decision process. I chose the mages but after experiencing the Templar ending, I would've done that instead. But I don't retcon my original decision even knowing that in the Templar ending, you can spare surrendered Mages and Bethany.

On a first play through the player doesn't know that so... the belittlement still stands, really.

Can Hawke not say he/she's siding with the templars to minimize casualities? My Hawke told Merrill he was helping the templars to minimize the damage.

What really makes it so odd that Hawke would stand up to Meredith to save his/her sister? (especially given the way Meredith kills her. ugh).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mai 2013 - 01:28 .

[twilekaoi]

Yeah during one of my Templar runs my Hawke told Merril that too... I think that's the universal paragon Hawke response. That still doesn't determine the sibling surviving bit though since Bethany just runs off to help her people anyway.

I was pretty sure that given the chance, Hawke would save the sister. But at that point nothing is set in stone since prior to that, Hawke is never even given a chance to save Carver or even Leandra-- both of which s/he had involvement in. So my Hawke thought it was better to be safe than sorry. At that point there was no way of knowing if Meredith would just relentlessly attack, or if Bethany would get possessed, or if she would attack herself, etc.

In retrospect, I would definitely choose the Templar ending (not that it matters since Holy war starts anyway): but I'm a firm believer in experiencing the consequences of my choices. To me it makes the game a bit more enjoyable. Trust me, there were so many times I wanted to reload save, lol

[Ryzaki]

True but if she died it wasn't going to be by my Hawke's hand or anywhere infront of him if he could help it (same with my mage and templar Carver).

Ah fair enough my Hawke was pretty sure Bethany wouldn't turn to bloodmagic (which could've blown up in his face. Luckily it didn't).

Depends on the Hawke for me. Though mages tend to go mages (save 2) and warriors/rogue tend to go templars.

I am a firm believer in the reload though