348 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, these are both true to some extent; Meredith suffered something like this, Cullen suffered something much like this, and there are certainly mages who snapped under the Templars abuse. On the other hand, what excuse does Caladrius have? Ser Karras? For that matter, do we know that Tarohne was ever part of a Circle?

It was mostly just teasing the fact of how malleable the argument is rather than making any legitimate point, I've just grown tired of everyone white-washing mages and demonizing Templar rather than accepting both have legitimate gripes against the other.

I considered prefacing this with "Dave's sarcasm aside," but I'd have just felt like an idiot if you weren't being sarcastic.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
As of the events of Asunder the mages abuse is over too,

No it's not, their freedom is jeopardized by the Templars and Seekers, who are completely at fault for going on the offensive.

they no longer have any grounds to complain and now have to take full responsibility for their actions (IMO).

You mean they have to defend themselves against unjustified aggression after daring to try and leave the Chantry peacefully.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
And when do you imagine this happened?

When you started posting fallacies.

And when do you imagine this happened?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
And when do you imagine this happened?

When you started posting fallacies.

And when do you imagine this happened?

2011-01-30

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
You say that like you're sure they can think of one.

I can, so they have no excuse.

There's at least one Grand Cleric who admits the injustice of the system,

I'd be interested to see who this is, because it can't possibly be Elthina.

but says that she allows it to continue because she can't think of a less unjust one to replace it with.

What she means is she's either too stupid or too lazy to give it any serious thought.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
You say that like you're sure they can think of one.

I can, so they have no excuse.

There's at least one Grand Cleric who admits the injustice of the system,

I'd be interested to see who this is, because it can't possibly be Elthina.

but says that she allows it to continue because she can't think of a less unjust one to replace it with.

What she means is she's either too stupid or too lazy to give it any serious thought.

An_Honest_Answer_Regarding_Apostates

[Dave of Canada]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You say that like you're sure they can think of one. There's at least one Grand Cleric who admits the injustice of the system, but says that she allows it to continue because she can't think of a less unjust one to replace it with.

I think it's an issue revolving the fact that the Chantry is trying to please both sides.

On one side, you've got the mundanes who are terribly afraid of mages and the risks that mages pose. On the other side, you've got the mages who are dangerous and require an education to lessen the risk.

The Chantry decides to take the mages away from the mundanes and places them in Circles, pleasing the mundanes. The mages are thrown into Circles where they're provided with food, shelter, clothes, beds and education in exchange for them needing to learn. This pleases the Chantry, pleases certain mages and upsets others.

Those who are upset scream out against their oppressors, they don't want to be in a gilded cage. They're mostly the resolutionists. Those who are content tend to vote against the resolutionists, a majority vote always in favor with staying in the Chantry until Asunder.

The Chantry really can't do much aside from letting them go which wouldn't please anyone, mundanes would be terrified and mages would loathe the living conditions outside the Circle. 

People like Plaintiff are like the anti-Chantry mages, they don't think ahead five minutes of what they're going to do when they actually achieve said freedom.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 mai 2013 - 04:01 .

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
As of the events of Asunder the mages abuse is over too,

No it's not, their freedom is jeopardized by the Templars and Seekers, who are completely at fault for going on the offensive.

Their freedom is always going to be jeopardized by something, everyone's freedom is jeopardized by something every day.  The mere existence of other people places crippling, unjust limitations on my freedom, but that's not abuse that's life.  If you're waiting for a time when they are completely without struggles you'll be waiting til the world stops turning.  The Mages have broken free from the Chantry and the Templars, the systemic abuse is over.

Plaintiff wrote...

they no longer have any grounds to complain and now have to take full responsibility for their actions (IMO).

You mean they have to defend themselves against unjustified aggression after daring to try and leave the Chantry peacefully.

No I mean that the actions they take in the name of that defense are all on them.  They can't use, "the Templars made us do it" anymore, again as far as I'm concerned.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

No I mean that the actions they take in the name of that defense are all on them.  They can't use, "the Templars made us do it" anymore, again as far as I'm concerned.

Well, Lambert is probably going to kill anyone he catches. At this point, it might be win or die. Survival is an end that justifies some really messed up means, in my book.

[lil yonce]

Lambert's goal is to subdue the mages back to the Circles of Magi. His goal isn't to kill them.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
You say that like you're sure they can think of one.

I can, so they have no excuse.

There's at least one Grand Cleric who admits the injustice of the system,

I'd be interested to see who this is, because it can't possibly be Elthina.

but says that she allows it to continue because she can't think of a less unjust one to replace it with.

What she means is she's either too stupid or too lazy to give it any serious thought.

An_Honest_Answer_Regarding_Apostates

Okay, see, right in the first sentence, she explicitly states that the only way to be a good person is to believe in Andraste and follow the teachings of the "holy Chantry", so I'm calling bull**** on that.

And then she follows that up with "Letting mages police themselves will lead to another Tevinter and that is the only way things can ever be", so I was right the first time. Stupid and lazy. And incredibly biased.

There are many, many small, easy steps that the Chantry could take that would drastically improve the current system. Here, I'll give you an example.

PROBLEM: Annullment. Right now, any Circle can be put to the sword if it is declared "irredeemable". There is no criteria by which "irredeemability" is defined, however and the judgement is solely left up to individual Grand Clerics, who don't have to answer to anybody. What's stopping these batty old crones from annulling the Circle if they burn their tongue on their morning porridge? Nothing!

SOLUTION: Short of abandoning the practice altogether (which is what should be done), the Chantry could write a ****ing checklist. It's really that simple! "A Circle is considered 'irredeemable' if it meets the following criteria..."

Of course the criteria might be unfair or problematic, so what do we do? We get input from the mages. And if a Grand Cleric tries to annul a Circle illegally, ****ing punish her.

The Chantry is more than capable of thinking up something that simple, the reason it doesn't is because it doesn't want to. It likes the position it has now, where it can slaughter hundreds of people, children included, for literally no reason at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 04:23 .

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
People like Plaintiff are like the anti-Chantry mages, they don't think ahead five minutes of what they're going to do when they actually achieve said freedom.

Since I don't actually advocate "TOTUL MAEG FREEDUMZ!!!11!", you won't mind if I say that "People like Dave of Canada are like people who can't read".

That is, of course, generously assuming that you're not just an out-and-out liar.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, see, right in the first sentence, she explicitly states that the only way to be a good person is to believe in Andraste and follow the teachings of the "holy Chantry", so I'm calling bull**** on that.

Point granted. This has nothing to do with the validity of the rest, however.

And then she follows that up with "Letting mages police themselves will lead to another Tevinter and that is the only way things can ever be", so I was right the first time. Stupid and lazy. And incredibly biased.

She doesn't say this is the only way things can ever be. Just that historically, this has happened, and that she sees no way non-mages can stop it from happening apart from what is already being done. What you're saying is that the non-mages should simply trust the mages, despite this example? I don't think that's an entirely safe move.

There are many, many small, easy steps that the Chantry could take that would drastically improve the current system. Here, I'll give you an example.

PROBLEM: Annullment. Right now, any Circle can be put to the sword if it is declared "irredeemable". There is no criteria by which "irredeemability" is defined, however and the judgement is solely left up to individual Grand Clerics, who don't have to answer to anybody. What's stopping these batty old crones from annulling the Circle if they burn their tongue on their morning porridge? Nothing!

Apparently the Divine gets to look over the facts after the fact, and punish abuse. More on that below.

SOLUTION: Short of abandoning the practice altogether (which is what should be done), the Chantry could write a ****ing checklist. It's really that simple! "A Circle is considered 'irredeemable' if it meets the following criteria..."

What you've missed with regards to the practice of Annulment is that given the very legitimate dangers of magic, there's situations under which it is a better option than allowing the situation to continue. (If the Warden wasn't essentially a god, Kinloch Hold would have qualified easily.)

Coming up with a criteria, on the other hand, is a pretty good idea. (If this has not been done. I'm not sure there.)

Of course the criteria might be unfair or problematic, so what do we do? We get input from the mages.

I agree that the mages should have more input. From the sound of it, that might have weakened Uldred's uprising. Hell, maybe the only reason he bothered is because he had no other means of influence.

And if a Grand Cleric tries to annul a Circle illegally, ****ing punish her.

We have from Gaider that while what Meredith did with the system was technically legal, she was going to have to answer some questions even had she not died in the process. So this is already in place, apparently.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 mai 2013 - 04:31 .

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Apparently the Divine gets to look over the facts after the fact.

You'll have to forgive me for saying that's nowhere near good enough. The goal should be prevention. If the mages of the Ferelden Circle could be saved, then there are very few circumstances where annulment would ever be justified.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 04:32 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Apparently the Divine gets to look over the facts after the fact.

You'll have to forgive me for saying that's nowhere near good enough. The goal should be prevention. If the mages of the Ferelden Circle could be saved, then there are very few circumstances where annulment would ever be justified.

Anyone who has this power knows they're going to be asked later why they used it if they do so. That seems like it would cut down on abuse.

As for Ferelden, I already pointed out the situation was only salvagable because the Warden is essentially a god. What happens if he/she isn't on hand?

[ArcaneJTM]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
As of the events of Asunder the mages abuse is over too,

No it's not, their freedom is jeopardized by the Templars and Seekers, who are completely at fault for going on the offensive.

Their freedom is always going to be jeopardized by something, everyone's freedom is jeopardized by something every day.  The mere existence of other people places crippling, unjust limitations on my freedom, but that's not abuse that's life.  If you're waiting for a time when they are completely without struggles you'll be waiting til the world stops turning.  The Mages have broken free from the Chantry and the Templars, the systemic abuse is over.

It's far from over as long as the Chantry and the Templars still try to bring the mages under their control.  It's a full blown revolution now.  These things are never pretty.  Oppressors don't usually just let the people they are oppressing walk away simply because they declared independence.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
You'll have to forgive me for saying that's nowhere near good enough. The goal should be prevention.

Am I the only one finding this incredibly ironic?
Yes, the goal should be prevention. Which is why we want mages in the Circles, where magical abuses can be prevented.

So, do tell us about "education" and "checking in with templars once a week" or any other innefectual measures you've cooked up. And I can answer in the very same manner you just did.
Not! Good! Enough!

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 mai 2013 - 12:40 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, the goal should be prevention. Which is why we want mages in the Circles, where magical abuses can be prevented.

I'll concern myself with the prevention of possible magical abuses when the abuses against the mages, which are happening right now, all of the time, are adequately dealt with.

So, do tell us about "education" and "checking in with templars once a week" or any other innefectual measures you've cooked up. And I can answer in the very same manner you just did.
Not! Good! Enough!

Since I don't have even the slightest respect for your judgement, I won't even bother. 

With the current state of Thedas, I couldn't care less if every Templar was scourged from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Abuses of magical talent are also happening all the time right now. How come they are of lesser priority? Are the lifes of mages worth more than that of mundanes?

[Joy Divison]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
And when do you imagine this happened?

When you started posting fallacies.

And when do you imagine this happened?

2011-01-30

LOL

[Tenshi]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, the goal should be prevention. Which is why we want mages in the Circles, where magical abuses can be prevented.

I'll concern myself with the prevention of possible magical abuses when the abuses against the mages, which are happening right now, all of the time, are adequately dealt with.

So, do tell us about "education" and "checking in with templars once a week" or any other innefectual measures you've cooked up. And I can answer in the very same manner you just did.
Not! Good! Enough!

Since I don't have even the slightest respect for your judgement, I won't even bother. 

With the current state of Thedas, I couldn't care less if every Templar was scourged from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames.

yes i can see why human with average brain would side with mages as the magic is so COOL, right?
mages are kept in circles for EXTREMELLY good reasons.
my personal opinion: i would love to be able to wipe them both, mages and chantry. hopefully they will give me this option in DA3

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Abuses of magical talent are also happening all the time right now. How come they are of lesser priority?

Because I don't care what happens to individuals who willingly participate in a system of institutionalized bigotry.

Are the lifes of mages worth more than that of mundanes?

Life has no inherent worth at all.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
In effect, when your points have been pulled apart and holes pointed out in the logic,

And when do you imagine this happened?

call people bigots

Only a problem if they're not bigots.

and deny everything.

Like you deny the myriad and inherent abuses of the Templars and the Chantry?

It happened when you decided to white wash and disregard any of the inherrent problems of a "free" mage in society. 

There have been no denials, everyone has said the structure exists for a reason, it's unfortunate that you're being obtuse or blinkered and won't accept the problems. It's disappointing when people are simply so intellectually barren that they start throwing round the term bigot because they have no other valid point to make.

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 mai 2013 - 02:28 .

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
So the Templars were brought in to being by the uncontrolled mage dominance and corruption thousands of years ago,

By the time the Templars came into being, the "mage dominance" no longer existed anywhere but in Tevinter. The mages were living peacefully in mundane society.

but it's the Templar's fault because the Mages' inability to control themeslves and not abuse their power has created the current system.

It's the fault of both the Chantry and the Templars for creating an inherently abusive system when they didn't have to. The Chantry possesses vast wealth and has had the better art of a millenium to create a better infrastructure than the one that exists currently, so there is no excuse for allowing the current, clearly terrible system, to continue.

I'm beginning to think rank stupidity and obtuse intellectually barren points are par for the course in your responses when the holes in your logic are exposed.

You wouldn't know logic if it hit you, so.

Yes, the mages were sitting there doing absolutely nothing and the chantry just constructed the system for no apparant reason. This is waht is called being obtuse.

So it's the fault of the Chantry for putting a system in place, not the fault of the Mages for not being able to police themselves. If you haven't noticed you haven't provided one alternative to the circle system, which Red Templar has already pointed out the myriad of issues of a more "liberal" inclusion of mages. 

Apparantly neither would you as you've simply reverterd to calling people bigots and falsehoods in every post while ignoring gaping holes in you points.

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 mai 2013 - 02:29 .

[Plaintiff]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...
yes i can see why human with average brain would side with mages as the magic is so COOL, right?

Magic powers can be cool. Considering the incredible amount of unnecessary crap that mages have to put up with in Thedas, I don't think the ability to shoot fireballs would be an acceptable trade-off at all.

mages are kept in circles for EXTREMELLY good reasons.

Yeah, if the Chantry didn't keep them all locked up, they wouldn't be able to deny healing services to the public, or unleash fiery hell on their enemies.