348 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
It happened when you decided to white wash and disregard any of the inherrent problems of a "free" mage in society.

I don't advocate your conception of what "free" means, you don't actually understand my argument at all.

And I never denied that magic was open to abuse. For instance, the Chantry abuses it.

There have been no denials, everyone has said the structure exists for a reason, it's unfortunate that you're being obtuse or blinkered and won't accept the problems. It's disappointing when people are simply so intellectually barren that they start throwing round the term bigot because they have no other valid point to make.

I'm not "throwing it around". I'm applying it to you, specifically, and not just because of this particular thread.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
I'll concern myself with the prevention of possible magical abuses when the abuses against the mages, which are happening right now, all of the time, are adequately dealt with.

These "abuses against mages" exist because of the magical abuses against non-mages. The best way to deal with them is by dealing with latter; dealing with the current system first would only create a period where magical abuses would run rampant until a new system could be brough forth and that is even assuming there can be a different system that accomplishes the same results, which is something I don't avocate.

Also, why are these "abuses against mages" a greater priority? In Andrastian lands, there are numerous laws protecting mages. The degree to which they are respected varies but it's an undeniable fact that they exist. For example, no mage can be made Tranquil after the Harrowing.
In Tevinter, the magisters can do whatever they please with slaves, there are no laws whatsoever protecting them. Children are bled at parties to entertain the guests and no one does a thing.
Why not focus on scourging every magister from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames?

Since I don't have even the slightest respect for your judgement, I won't even bother. 

With the current state of Thedas, I couldn't care less if every Templar was scourged from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames.

Well, we can't all be superior lifeforms such as you, Plaintiff.
But if you are so certain that your "solution" can stand up to scrutiny, post it. Please, enligthen us, poor ignorants that we are.

[Joy Divison]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

An_Honest_Answer_Regarding_Apostates

Okay, see, right in the first sentence, she explicitly states that the only way to be a good person is to believe in Andraste and follow the teachings of the "holy Chantry", so I'm calling bull**** on that.

That's not what she stated.  I don't think you know what the word explicitly means.

With the current state of Thedas, I couldn't care less if every Templar
was scourged from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames.

I see.  So you justify the complete extermination of an entire group for the abuses committed by some members of said group.  Pot, meet kettle.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 mai 2013 - 02:41 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
These "abuses against mages" exist because of the magical abuses against non-mages.

No, they exist because of abuses that happened a million years ago, which the Chantry won't stop harping on. They exist because the Chantry creates an environment that encourages it.

The best way to deal with them is by dealing with latter; dealing with the current system first would only create a period where magical abuses would run rampant until a new system could be brough forth and that is even assuming there can be a different system that accomplishes the same results, which is something I don't avocate.

Well good, because I'm not interested in creating a system that "produces the same results". I want one that engenders co-operation between the Mages and the Templars, rather than enmity. I want one that results in less rape and more emotional stability for everyone concerned. I want one where the most powerful resource in the world isn't monopolised by fundamentalist whackjobs who utilise it only to cause harm against idealogical opponents.

Also, why are these "abuses against mages" a greater priority? In Andrastian lands, there are numerous laws protecting mages.

Please, God, list some of these. It would greatly amuse me.

The degree to which they are respected varies but it's an undeniable fact that they exist. For example, no mage can be made Tranquil after the Harrowing.

For every law ostensibly created to "protect" mages, there's at least one designed to cause them harm for no purpose. Funnily enough, those are the ones that get enforced, while the laws that are designed to protect mages are routinely violated. Alrik is illegally tranquiling mages left and right, and the mages have no recourse because their plight is being deliberately ignored by anyone in a position to do anything about it.

In Tevinter, the magisters can do whatever they please with slaves, there are no laws whatsoever protecting them.

Jesus Christ, here we go again with Tevinter. "If you let mages see their families or have consensual sex, Thedas will turn into a blood-soaked magocracy overnight".

Children are bled at parties to entertain the guests and no one does a thing.
Why not focus on scourging every magister from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames?

Because that's not what the thread is about?

Tevinter is, by all accounts, a deplorable place, but its existence is irrelevent to the problems going on in the rest of Thedas, except for the fact that the White Chantry holds it up as a big bad boogieman to frighten its cattle into obedience.

Well, we can't all be superior lifeforms such as you, Plaintiff.

And it saddens me greatly. You can't imagine what a burden I've taken upon myself to descend from on high and enlighten the intellectual peasantry of the internet in general.

I would shine my light on the Mass Effect forums, but I'm genuinely afraid that spitting anything other than mindless vitriol would see me murdered in my sleep.

But if you are so certain that your "solution" can stand up to scrutiny, post it. Please, enligthen us, poor ignorants that we are.

I already know you won't accept it, because I've posted it before, in detail, various times. I don't propose a perfect system, or one that would be easy to develop. My hypothetical system has gaps, which I've acknowledged in the past, and would take years to develop because undoing millenia of insitutionalised bigotry is a difficult and lengthy task.

You refuse to acknowledge that every system has flaws, and in your mind the previous system is already perfect, despite its ultimate failure, because you don't perceive the wanton abuse of mages as a problem at all. And you'll just complain when I say the Chantry needs to be removed from the equation because... I dunno, you have a huge bone for the Chantry.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 03:22 .

[Plaintiff]

Joy Divison wrote...
That's not what she stated.  I don't think you know what the word explicitly means.

That's exactly what she said. She believes the only way for mage to not be dangerous is to specifically follow her particular religion. She is biased

I see.  So you justify the complete extermination of an entire group for the abuses committed by some members of said group.  Pot, meet kettle.

"Herp derp, mages and templars are both 'groups', so that makes their positions morally equivalent. Just like black people and the KKK."

Bzzzt! Wrong!

All Templars commit abuses, some of these abuses just happen to be "legal", according to the bigoted religion they serve. Commiting abuses is a Templar's entire job, and people willingly join the Templars in full knowledge that they will be required to imprison, torment and murder people, even children, for daring to have the normal, human reaction to being dragged from their homes and locked in a rape dungeon.

Punishing someone for what they were born as is not at all the same thing as punishing someone for something they choose to be.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 03:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Why not focus on scourging every magister from the planet by an all-consuming wall of flames?

Two reasons. One, far too much magical knowledge to destroy Tevinter entirely. Two, we badly need them against the qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Abuses of magical talent are also happening all the time right now. How come they are of lesser priority?

Because I don't care what happens to individuals who willingly participate in a system of institutionalized bigotry.

So old farmer McDonald who isn't even a believer in the Chant, but lives in the Andrastian nations, is deserving of death, simply because you disagree with an institution's politics?

Plaintiff wrote...

Are the lifes of mages worth more than that of mundanes?

Life has no inherent worth at all.

If that is true, then what is happening to some mages shouldn't bother you at all, since their lifes are worthless already anyway.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So old farmer McDonald who isn't even a believer in the Chant, but lives in the Andrastian nations, is deserving of death, simply because you disagree with an institution's politics?

Do you not understand what qualifies someone to be a supporter of "institutionalized bigotry"?

If that is true, then what is happening to some mages shouldn't bother you at all, since their lifes are worthless already anyway.

I never said that I don't value life personally. I just said its value isn't inherent.

Why don't you explain to me why I should consider the lives of non-mages to be worth more than those of mages? Just because there's more of them? Since when did being in the majority make someone more deserving of life? Why should I be interested in preserving a society that only thrives because it treats people badly?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 03:34 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
No, they exist because of abuses that happened a million years ago, which the Chantry won't stop harping on. They exist because the Chantry creates an environment that encourages it.
[/quote]
No, it exists because the nature of magic combined with that of human beings makes it a constant danger to everyone around it. Demonic possession is not restricted to Tevinter territory neither are human-initiated abuses of this supernatural power.
Magical abuses still happen in Thedas, both in and outside Andrastian lands. The difference being that, under the Chantry, those mages who abuse their powers are persecuted whereas in mage controlled lands they are placed in positions of even more power.

[quote]I want one that engenders co-operation between the Mages and the Templars, rather than enmity.
[/quote]
Templars are, by its very definition, soldiers meant to fight magic.  There is about as many chances of eliminating enmity between magic hunters and magic users as there is to eliminate the pervasive "us vs them" mentality.
Especially after yet another war.

[quote] I want one where the most powerful resource in the world isn't monopolised by fundamentalist whackjobs who utilise it only to cause harm against idealogical opponents.[/quote]
You just described pretty much every government ever.
Take a look at Thedosian history. Then, you might actually see that there are two, only two, cofirmed beyond doubt instances of the Chantry using magic. Against the qunari and the darkspawn. Both of which were entirely justified.

[quote]
Please, God, list some of these. It would greatly amuse me.[/quote]
I did, very same post.
Do you start answering people without reading the entirety of their posts? Because that would explain much.
Even if you did, there is such a thing as the delete button.

[quote]For every law ostensibly created to "protect" mages, there's at least one designed to cause them harm for no purpose.[/quote]
There is not a single law created to harm mages for no purpose.
All of the laws; forced segregation, limitation of offsprings; there are very good and rational reasons beyond them.
For examples, segregation of mages means that should one be possessed, the number of defenceless innocents nearby will be greatly reduced. 24/7 templar vigilance will discourage the practice of forbidden magic due to fear of retribution and also means that should there be an emergency, their response time will be greatly decreased.
Like it or not, it's all very rational and logic.

[quote]Funnily enough, those are the ones that get enforced, while the laws that are designed to protect mages are routinely violated. Alrik is illegally tranquiling mages left and right, and the mages have no recourse because their plight is being deliberately ignored by anyone in a position to do anything about it.[/quote]
Abuses will always exist so long as humans exist.

[quote]
Jesus Christ, here we go again with Tevinter. "If you let mages see their families or have consensual sex, Thedas will turn into a blood-soaked magocracy overnight".[/quote]
Never mind the fact I never actually said anything even close to that but I suppose it's easier to just post something like that than actually adressing the points of the other.

[quote]
Because that's not what the thread is about?

Tevinter is, by all accounts, a deplorable place, but its existence is irrelevent to the problems going on in the rest of Thedas, except for the fact that the White Chantry holds it up as a big bad boogieman to frighten its cattle into obedience.[/quote]
No. The existence of Tevinter serves as a cautionary tale to the danger of magic and why rules, restrictions, laws are vital.
And before you say that you don't think mages should have unrestricted freedom, do take notice that I have not acused you of defending that.
I am simply saying that Tevinter serves as more than just a "boogeyman". It's very real in Thedas and the danger of it spreading are also very real.

[quote]
And it saddens me greatly. You can't imagine what a burden I've taken upon myself to descend from on high and enlighten the intellectual peasantry of the internet in general.[/quote]
And we are all very grateful.

[quote]I would shine my light on the Mass Effect forums, but I'm genuinely afraid that spitting anything other than mindlessvitriol would see me murdered in my sleep.[/quote]
Oh so, that's the reason.
Well, I can assure you that I have no intentions of murdering your in your sleep. So, do tone it down.

[quote]
I already know you won't accept it, because I've posted it before, in detail, various times.[/quote]
Why are you assuming that I am an artifical intelligence capable of scouring every corner of the internet?

[quote]I don't propose a perfect system, or one that would be easy to develop. My hypothetical system has gaps, which I've acknowledged in the past, and would take years to develop because undoing millenia of insitutionalised bigotry is a difficult and lengthy task.

You refuse to acknowledge that every system has flaws, and in your mind the previous system is already perfect, despite its ultimate failure, because you don't perceive the wanton abuse of mages as a problem at all. And you'll just complain when I say the Chantry needs to be removed from the equation because... I dunno, you have a huge bone for the Chantry.
[/quote]
No, I don't, in fact. The current system can be unnacessarely harsh; the almost complete isolation between both sides helps promote an "us vs them" mentality and discourages people from looking to the other; both mages and non-mages; as human beings worthy of assistance.
I simply accept that equality between mages and non-mages is impossible and that, therefore; if equality is impossible, that means that, by default, one must be the dominant one. And thus, one must pick the side they wish to see dominate.
I picked the side I identify with, that of the non-mages. And I understand that in order for my side to be safe and free, some degree of abuse against mages is necessary such as the forced segregation.
I believe that the current system, while not perfect, does ensure the freedom and security of non-mages while providing mages with a confortable existence.

As for the Chantry, it has proved it does not abuse magic; and it really doesn't, there are no secret blood mage squads serving the Divine which I fully expected coming into DAO; and it mantains their destructive powers politically neutral. It's not perfect but, unless you can create an international, well respected organization that most people feel some sort of obedience towards overnight, I think it should stay.
Not all of us are so willing to endure chaos.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 mai 2013 - 03:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So old farmer McDonald who isn't even a believer in the Chant, but lives in the Andrastian nations, is deserving of death, simply because you disagree with an institution's politics?

Do you not understand what qualifies someone to be a supporter of "institutionalized bigotry"?

Do you not understand that rogue mages are also preying on the helpless villagers? It is because of these rogue elements that Templars are needed. You keep talkign about the TEmplars abusing their powers, but continually also refuse to acknowledge that mages abuse their power aswell, idependent of Chantry influence even.

Plaintiff wrote...

If that is true, then what is happening to some mages shouldn't bother you at all, since their lifes are worthless already anyway.

I never said that I don't value life personally. I just said its value isn't inherent.

Why don't you explain to me why I should consider the lives of non-mages to be worth more than those of mages? Just because there's more of them? Since when did being in the majority make someone more deserving of life? Why should I be interested in preserving a society that only thrives because it treats people badly?

You shouldn't. You should consider them of at least equal worth. However, by doing so, you should also realize the dangers that magic inherently possess to everybody, not just the mage themselves. You should also acknowledge that there are cases of abuse of magic, just as often as there are cases of abuse of Templar power, and by ignoring one, just because you disagree with the other, does everybody a disfavor, since that will only exacerbate the issue.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Why should I be interested in preserving a society that only thrives because it treats people badly?

So, the definition of "badly" we are using is "limitation of freedom", yes? Because you have claimed that the very job of templars; to forcibly segregate people; is wrong.
But all societies require lmitations of freedoms. That is the entire point of the legal system; we limit each other's freedoms due; not to evidence that we will act in an harmful manner to the group; but the possibility that we will act in ways that are harmful to the group. Societies thrive because their citizens have their freedoms limited so we can coexist. Therefore, if you do not wish to preserve societies who only thrive because it treats people badly; AKA by limiting their freedoms as its done to the mages; then you should stand against every society that ever existed.

Now, you might claim that these societies limit the freedoms of their citizens in an equal manner. What applies to one, apllies to all. But, that assumes that every citizen's inborn ability to cause harm is equal. But that is not necessarely true with mages whose inborn abilities to causr harm is much superior to that of non-mages.
Ergo, it's logical to ask for mages to have their freedoms more restricted so as to reflect this. Would you argue that a 9mm and a rocket launcher are the same thing and should be treated in an equal fashion simply because their purpose is the same; to kill? Or would you accept that the fact rocket launchers are that much more dangerous than a 9mm justifies a greater control of this particular weaponry?

[The Spirit of Dance]

One simple solution would be to drain all the blood out of your body. No blood, no blood magic. I mean what could possibly go wrong?

[Joy Divison]

Plaintiff wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
That's not what she stated.  I don't think you know what the word explicitly means.

That's exactly what she said. She believes the only way for mage to not be dangerous is to specifically follow her particular religion. She is biased

No it is not.  No matter how often you use a bold faced font, it does not change that you are putting words into her mouth that conform to what you want her to say.

Let's review what you think she says: "Okay, see, right in the first sentence, she explicitly states that the only way to be a good person is to believe in Andraste and follow the teachings of the "holy Chantry"

To what she actually says: "A mage who does not receive the teachings of the Circle and who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is an apostate, and a danger to us all."

You are 100% wrong.  In the first sentence she says nothing of being a good person (or bad).  Nothing.  That's just you making stuff up to say nothing of the outright falsification of claiming she does so explicitly.

As I see reading comprehension is not exactly your strong suit, I am guessing you did not bother to actually contemplate the words the author actually put down. 

"Without the guidance of the holy Chantry, a mage may foolishly dabble in the darker arts—blood magic, or demon summoning, thus becoming maleficarum."

Note the word "guidiance."  You may deem it to be synonymous with indoctrination, abusive coercion, or instituionalized intellectual slavery, but these are reflections of your subjectivity, not what the author wrote.  You will also note the word the author used was "may," yet you claimed she said 'only" and put it in bold face.  So you are either intellectually dishonest or incapable of basic reading comprehension.  Either way, you are not exactly making yourself or your "argument" look very good.  But please do continue, I do so much enjoy your ranting.

All Templars commit abuses

You might want to know that your use of boldness so far only reveals your ignorance.  All templars commit abuses as in every single of them?  Even Thrask, Emeric, and Bryant?  I find this perspective amusing given in my playthroughs of DA2 it was a rare mage who was not a walking abomination...but surely not "all" mages are like that and we don't need a Circle, right?

Punishing someone for what they were born as is not at all the same thing as punishing someone for something they choose to be.

Perhaps, but some might argue it is just as bad as punishing someone by association as you are advocating.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 mai 2013 - 07:02 .

[Plaintiff]

Joy Divison wrote...
To what she actually says: "A mage who does not receive the teachings of the Circle and who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is an apostate, and a danger to us all."

A mage who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is a danger to us all

That's what she's saying: "The only way for a mage to not be dangerous is to believe in my religion". At no point does she make any exceptions to this rule, or acknowledge the existence of any such possibility. Her religion is the only safe religion, with no respect or regard for other cultures or religions that might wish to control magic in a similar way. No, no, it's Andraste or the highway.

She's biased. Deal with it.

Note the word "guidiance."  You may deem it to be synonoymous with indoctrination, abusive coercion, or instituionalized intellectual slavery, but these are reflections of your subjectivity, not what the author wrote.

How she views Chantry influence is irrelevent. How I view it is irrelevent. You've completely missed the point, yet again. I wish I could say I was surprised.

You will also note the word the author used was "may," yet you claimed she said 'only" and put it in bold face.

Her opening sentence makes it clear that "only" is what she actually means

All templars commit abuses as in every single of them?

Every. Single. One.

Even Thrask, Emeric, and Bryant?

If they're doing their jobs right, then yes. If they are stealing mages from their families, forbidding them from seeing their families, stealing their own children from them in turn, forcing them to combat demons with no preparation, killing them for minor infractions, making them Tranquil against their will and a myriad of other tasks that their job demands, then yes, they are abusive.

I find this perspective amusing given in my playthroughs of DA2 it was a rare mage who was not a walking abonination...but surely not "all" mages are like that and we don't need a Circle, right?

Also irrelevent. Hawke's experiences are not usual, even for the world of Thedas, and even if they were, that doesn't make the actions of the Templars any less abusive.

You (well, not you, but someone) could feasibly argue that the abuse is necessary. Nobody can argue that it is not present in every single aspect of Templar operations. Abuse is a clearly defined term, and the vast majority of standard Templar protocols clearly involve abusing mages in some form or other.

No, but some might argue it is just as bad as punishing someone by association as you are advocating.

There is no such thing as a "Templar by association". You are either a Templar or you are not, and all Templars are abusive. Abuse is a fundamental aspect of their job description, and inherent in most of the duties they perform. They cannot escape it, even should they wish to. Not unless they are willing to leave the Templar Order completely.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2013 - 07:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Catroi wrote...
(cutting someone from the fade makes them Tranquil, imagine a world where everyone is tranquil...)

A world goverened by pure logic?

Spock would approve.

[Insaner Robot]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Catroi wrote...
(cutting someone from the fade makes them Tranquil, imagine a world where everyone is tranquil...)

A world goverened by pure logic?

Spock would approve.

It's not really the case though. Negation of emotions doesn't mean an addition of logic. Every Tranquil just ends up with more concentration and tolerance for repetitive adminstrative tasks. Runecrafting duties, handing out rods of fire, etc.. Tranquils like Owain don't even have enough to logic to question rules. He rationalizes things simply because it's "procedure".

I think logical describes the tranquil quite well. And I'd suggest reading David Gaiders postings in this thread.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6901812&lf=8

Where he describes them as logical of thought, reasonable and methodical. But lacking intuition or the ability to act on hunches. And how they are free to go and do what they want in the world but very few see a logical reason to do so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Blood magic to me always seemed more a balancing act than anything else. It requires you to stay in constant control of yourself and not give in to the temptation of abuse and corruption. So many people fail, as they would in real life, but a truely skilled blood mage could walk the line that few can manage to tread, and use great power without resorting to horrific means.

Or they could make it inherently stupid evil like stars does with the dark side and ruin a potentially good arc driving and narrative driving element. I guess that works to.

Blood magic is corrupting by nature.... and human nature.
You can't use it to it's full potential unless you abuse it like hell.
And the temptation is over 9000.

The stories of super-uncorruptable people are fantasies. Anyone using blood magic will eventually fall prey to curruption. The temptation and opportunites are just too much and too many.

[Tenshi]

Plaintiff wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...
yes i can see why human with average brain would side with mages as the magic is so COOL, right?

Magic powers can be cool. Considering the incredible amount of unnecessary crap that mages have to put up with in Thedas, I don't think the ability to shoot fireballs would be an acceptable trade-off at all.

mages are kept in circles for EXTREMELLY good reasons.

Yeah, if the Chantry didn't keep them all locked up, they wouldn't be able to deny healing services to the public, or unleash fiery hell on their enemies.

or wipe out whole redcliffe, or enslave whole empire, or murder someones mother for no reason.

[Joy Divison]

Plaintiff wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
To what she actually says: "A mage who does not receive the teachings of the Circle and who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is an apostate, and a danger to us all."

A mage who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is a danger to us all

That's what she's saying: "The only way for a mage to not be dangerous is to believe in my religion". At no point does she make any exceptions to this rule, or acknowledge the existence of any such possibility. Her religion is the only safe religion, with no respect or regard for other cultures or religions that might wish to control magic in a similar way. No, no, it's Andraste or the highway.

She's biased. Deal with it.

Underlining and bold face does not alter the fact that you are now saying something different than you so adamently claimed before.  What you said before was:

"right in the first sentence, she explicitly states that the only way to be a good person is to believe in Andraste and follow the teachings of the "holy Chantry"

Now you are saying something different which, while at least on the point of mages and the danger they represent,  still misinterprets the author's point.  She does not believe it is the "only" way, rather it is the most effective way due to the lack of alternatives.  She is saying is that mages are by their very nature a danger, belief in Andraste aside, because "a mage's mind will ever be a doorway to spirit's of the fade." Chantry belief does not close such doorways, merely provide instruction and guidance so that a mage may not fall prey to these dangers.  Because these mages by their nature represent a danger, something that should be self-evident, she believes the present Chantry system is necessary to continue such a practice because the most obvious alternative specifcally given to her by the letter's recipient, mages governing their own, has a bad historical example in the Tevinter Imperium. She does not discount the viability of a different approach, as you claim, only that in her experience she has not come across one.

As you have been reluctant to provide such an alternative in this thread even when others have asked you for it, it would seem the good Grand Cleric might have a point.

Her opening sentence makes it clear that "only" is what she actually means

Reading comprehension requires more than to select specific excepts which match your preconceptions. Until you or someone else in Thedas provides something more than a wishful theoretical system that is more convincing than the hsitorical example of the Tevinter Imperium, then the Good Cleric's enitre message that the current Chantry system is both necessary and dutiful has strong merit.

All templars commit abuses as in every single of them?

Every. Single. One.

Even Thrask, Emeric, and Bryant?

If they're doing their jobs right, then yes. If they are stealing mages from their families, forbidding them from seeing their families, stealing their own children from them in turn, forcing them to combat demons with no preparation, killing them for minor infractions, making them Tranquil against their will and a myriad of other tasks that their job demands, then yes, they are abusive.

Well, that's just the point.  Not Every. Single. One. are doing their jobs "right" and using the Circle as a "rape dungeon"

Also irrelevent. Hawke's experiences are not usual, even for the world of Thedas, and even if they were, that doesn't make the actions of the Templars any less abusive.

So Hawke's experiences with all the abominations roaming the streets of Kirkwall are "not usual" yet the Templar's "rape dungeons" in Kirkwall are representative of Every. Single. One.  Right

There is no such thing as a "Templar by association". You are either a Templar or you are not, and all Templars are abusive. Abuse is a fundamental aspect of their job description, and inherent in most of the duties they perform. They cannot escape it, even should they wish to. Not unless they are willing to leave the Templar Order completely.

Ahh, yes.  Whereas the Good Cleric was biased for allegedly stating "Andraste or the highway," you are just a paragon of objectivity and rationale thinking here.

The world must be much easier to understand when you see things only how you want to see them and believe we live in world that is black and white.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 23 mai 2013 - 12:59 .

[Insaner Robot]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't consider that logical at all. It's procedural, not rational. It's no more logical than anyone who gets shown a step by step process and carries it out indefinitely. Real logic is more creative, questions more, and doesn't necessarily follow procedure but looks for more efficiency or loopholes. In other words, it's problem solving. Tranquil logic is not problem solving. It's task oriented. There might be two types of logic, I guess (in Jungian terms, there are two types of "thinkers". Extroverted Thinking and Introverted.. It's the introverted kind that questions things. Extroverted logic is common in cops and soldiers and mid level managers). It's Extroverted Thinking that you'd use if you bought a table and followed the plans to make it. It's Introverted logic to rely on sight and see how the pieces click on your own (and also enables you to not buy a table at all and make your own. Heh).

The tranquil seem to lack the instinctiveness or intuitiveness to use Intoverted logic. Instead following established rules, which does fit literal definitions of the word logic.

But as with anything, and I hope I'll be forgiven for using a trope, YMMV
Writer intent seems to be toward a type of logic, but player interpretation is out of their control.

[LobselVith8]

Red Templar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But the point is that we've never seen any mage be possessed who was not screwing with demonology or in a place tainted by those who had, and hence have no evidence for it. And there's nothing to suggest that, like Connor, Meredith's sister wasn't dabbling in demonology without understanding the implications (coincidentally, while hiding in fear of the Circle because of how terrible it is, another mark against the templars' supposed effectiveness).

I'm not going to be convinced that possession can only happen in hellmouths and veil teirs without a source.

I think Xil's point is that abominations aren't an everyday occurance, as the situation in Dragon Age II that lead to many insane mages and abominations in a concentrated area (i.e. Kirkwall) was related to the fact that it was a Tevinter Hellmouth. Also, we can read from the codex about abominations: "Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon."

Possession isn't limited to mages, either. We know that trees, animals, and ordinary people can be possessed as well. The Poet Tree in the Brecillian Forest is merely one example.

Red Templar wrote...

And the ability of mages to mess around with demonology and corrupt other mages in the process, as well as a novice child being able to amateurishly bungle into bringing an apocolyptic crisis on entire fortress town, are arguments for the templar system. These things would not somehow become easier to track, manage, prevent and repair with mages dispersed among the gen-pop.

The examples of abominations that happen as a direct result of the Chantry controlled Circles (one of which is included in the abomination codex I mentioned above), as well as the horrors that transpire when you give an anti-mage religious order dominion over men and women with magical ability in the name of a morally bankrupt religion that has preached intolerance against and vilified magic and mages for nearly a millennia, are arguments against the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order having any degree of authority over mages.

Red Templar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is funny, because all of the threats here involving mages of such character, at least from Andrastian society, have happened because of the templars. Connor was hidden because of fear of the templars, Tarohne was striking out against the templars, Decimus was intensely paranoid about templar attacks and lashed out, Huon was brutalized and driven mad by the templars, Evelina was possessed while fleeing the templars...

Your argument here categorically fails because of your omission of Quentin (also because Connor absolutely does not prove your point, but let's focus on Quentin). He is the model psycopath mage, and was driven to his crimes by grief over the death of his wife, not by alleged templar brutality.

Quentin is also implied to be from the Starkhaven Circle, per Gascard's note in his mansion. We already have Starkhaven mages referencing how bad that respective Circle of Magi was. As it stands, we really can't speak for the inception to Quentin's insanity, because it's not within the scope of our knowledge.

Red Templar wrote...

Which leads us to how you haven't thought this argument through. If templar misconduct can inspire these things, why assume that it would stop once templars are gone? In the tower, mages live relatively sheltered lives, not having to worry about food or clothing or a warm place to sleep.

With Anders' referencing the mages who commit suicide to escape the Chantry controlled Circle, and the tragedies of the beatings, torture, rape, murder, and illegal tranquility that happened in the Circle of Kirkwall, I'm certain I can imagine more than a few reasons why some mages have no interest in living under the brutality of the Chantry controlled Circles.

Red Templar wrote...

Average peasants don't have such comfort. Life for the average peasant sucks. Even for the average middle class real world person, life is stressful and often full of the grief that created Quintin and the fear present in those you mentioned.

I'm sure mage criminals have inspired fear among the people. I'm certain that templars seizing power illegally over the people, and death squads of templars murdering civilians in broad daylight, also created fear for people.

Red Templar wrote...

If you claim templars are all at fault for terrorizing these poor folks, does it not stand to reason that if others terrorized them the same might occur? Templars are not the only thing that can prey on mages. There are bandits, burglars, street thugs, rapists, pirates, slavers, darkspawn, beasties, natural disasters, taxes, tariffs, spousal problems, infidelity, plague, disease, famine, scary spiders, war, landlords, feudal lords, dead puppies and kitties in a sad, miserable world where people have real problems greater than being forced to do the responsible thing and live a monastic lifestyle in a warm tower with regular meals.

How does that diminish the fact that the templars were, and are, a threat to the mages? Especially now that they seperated from the Andrastian Chantry to hunt down the mages for having autonomy.

Red Templar wrote...

If the horrors of the system are such that it can drives mages to madness, and if grief was enough to drive Quentin to the same, it stands to reason that any of the many, many problems that people have to deal with on a daily basis and which can have profound emotional impact on a human being will do the same thing.

That's not much of an argument for forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

[DPSSOC]

ArcaneJTM wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
As of the events of Asunder the mages abuse is over too,

No it's not, their freedom is jeopardized by the Templars and Seekers, who are completely at fault for going on the offensive.

Their freedom is always going to be jeopardized by something, everyone's freedom is jeopardized by something every day.  The mere existence of other people places crippling, unjust limitations on my freedom, but that's not abuse that's life.  If you're waiting for a time when they are completely without struggles you'll be waiting til the world stops turning.  The Mages have broken free from the Chantry and the Templars, the systemic abuse is over.

It's far from over as long as the Chantry and the Templars still try to bring the mages under their control.

Again if you're waiting for an end to that before you stop using "the Templars made them do it" you're going to be waiting til the world stops turning.  Because mages are extremely dangerous, highly unpredictable, and as we've seen in a number of cases remarkably petty, so there's always going to be somebody who wants to bring them under their control.

ArcaneJTM wrote...
It's a full blown revolution now.  These things are never pretty.  Oppressors don't usually just let the people they are oppressing walk away simply because they declared independence.

True but they still have to own up to whatever it is they do.  My point is that from the end of Asunder on the mages and their supporters can't say, "The Templars made them do it." anymore.

[Xilizhra]

True but they still have to own up to whatever it is they do. My point is that from the end of Asunder on the mages and their supporters can't say, "The Templars made them do it." anymore.

Actually, they completely can. They only can't after the Templar Order is nothing but ash in the wind, because this entire war, along with the entire thousand-year tyranny of the Order itself, has been prosecuted by the templars.