348 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

True but they still have to own up to whatever it is they do. My point is that from the end of Asunder on the mages and their supporters can't say, "The Templars made them do it." anymore.

Actually, they completely can.

Debatable

[Plaintiff]

Joy Divison wrote...
Ahh, yes.  Whereas the Good Cleric was biased for allegedly stating "Andraste or the highway," you are just a paragon of objectivity and rationale thinking here.

The Grand Cleric was going to be biased anyway, because she's a ****ing Cleric. Of course she thinks her religion is the best one, she wouldn't be a Grand Cleric if she didn't feel that way. Admitting that maybe the Chantry isn't the best at everything would be heresy.

The world must be much easier to understand when you see things only how you want to see them and believe we live in world that is black and white.

What relevance does my view of Thedas have to my view of "our" world or any other worlds?

Some issues are blaack and white, and this one is. Abusing others is a requirement of being a Templar, just like it is a requirement of joining certain violent gangs. Just like putting out fires is a fundamental aspect of being a fireman, or treating illnesses is a fundamental part of being a doctor.

Just because you don't see Thrask, Emeric or Bryant abusing mages right at the moment that you speak to them doesn't mean they don't do it. They have to do it, because being a Templar requires it. It is a major and inescapable aspect of their job.  They are all abusers, even Thrask. Thrask is not trying to end the abuse of mages, he's just trying to get Meredith ousted from her position, so that the level of abuse will revert to one that he personally is comfortable with.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2013 - 02:51 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ah yes, I forgot that we came across that one Templar's checklist in DA:O.

5-11 : Wake up, beat mages.
11-1 : Lunch break, torment mages with food fight
2-4 : Stand outside the tower and wave at the inside
5-8 : Make fun of stupid mage hats.
9-11 : Evening beatings

Oh wait, we didn't come across that list at all, silly me.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ah yes, I forgot that we came across that one Templar's checklist in DA:O.

5-11 : Wake up, beat mages.
11-1 : Lunch break, torment mages with food fight
2-4 : Stand outside the tower and wave at the inside
5-8 : Make fun of stupid mage hats.
9-11 : Evening beatings

Oh wait, we didn't come across that list at all, silly me.

Alrik's correspondence wasn't all that different.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Ahh, yes.  Whereas the Good Cleric was biased for allegedly stating "Andraste or the highway," you are just a paragon of objectivity and rationale thinking here.

The Grand Cleric was going to be biased anyway, because she's a ****ing Cleric. Of course she thinks her religion is the best one, she wouldn't be a Grand Cleric if she didn't feel that way.

The world must be much easier to understand when you see things only how you want to see them and believe we live in world that is black and white.

What relevance does my view of Thedas have to my view of "our" world or any other worlds?

Some issues are blaack and white, and this one is. Abusing others is a requirement of being a Templar, just like it is a requirement of joining certain violent gangs.

Just because you don't see Thrask, Emeric or Bryant abusing mages right at the moment that you speak to them doesn't mean they don't do it. They have to do it, because being a Templar requires it. It is a major and inescapable aspect of their job.  They are all abusers, even Thrask. Thrask is not trying to end the abuse of mages, he's just trying to get Meredith ousted from her position, so that the level of abuse will revert to one that he personally is comfortable with.

Guilt by association logic? So does that mean that all mages who we didn't witness denounce the Imperium are slavery, and blood magic supporters?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 mai 2013 - 02:55 .

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ah yes, I forgot that we came across that one Templar's checklist in DA:O.

5-11 : Wake up, beat mages.
11-1 : Lunch break, torment mages with food fight
2-4 : Stand outside the tower and wave at the inside
5-8 : Make fun of stupid mage hats.
9-11 : Evening beatings

Oh wait, we didn't come across that list at all, silly me.

There is not only one form of abuse, Einstein.

Kidnapping children? That's abuse.

Preventing them from having their own children? That's abuse

Preventing mages from seeing their families? That's abuse.

The Harrowing? Abuse

Tranquility? Abuse.

Preaching constantly that mages and magic are responsible for all the evils in the world? Psychological abuse.

These are all things that Templars do, every day, as fundamental aspects of their job.

[BlueMagitek]

Neither Templar Letter or Ser Alrik's Letter sound anything like that.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

There is not only one form of abuse, Einstein.

Kidnapping children? That's abuse.

Preventing them from having their own children? That's abuse

Preventing mages from seeing their families? That's abuse.

The Harrowing? Abuse

Tranquility? Abuse.

Preaching constantly that mages and magic are responsible for all the evils in the world? Psychological abuse.

These are all things that Templars do, every day, as fundamental aspects of their job.

I know, my list had several different forms, from physical to emotional. 

Tell you what, why don't you get back to me when you can actually conduct yourself civilly. 

Until then, contemplate which society in Thedas meets a non abusive standard on the Tree of Woe.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
Guilt by association logic?

I do not know what the **** you are reading, but it's not my posts.

There is no "guilt by association". Every Templar is individually guilty of being a Templar, and everything that that job requires.

Firemen put out fires.

Paramedics perform first aid.

Templars abuse mages.

So does that mean that all mages who we didn't witness denounce the Imperium are slavery, and blood magic supporters?

No, don't be a moron. There is no moral equivalency between being a Mage and being a Templar.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Tell you what, why don't you get back to me when you can actually conduct yourself civilly.

As it is, I'm being far more civil than you deserve.

Until then, contemplate which society in Thedas meets a non abusive standard on the Tree of Woe.

The fact that other societes in Thedas may be as bad, or even worse, is completely irrelevent to the discussion. If you want to discuss those societies, make another thread.

[Plaintiff]

StreetMagic wrote...
Those are all very "real" concerns about abuse, but you miss the point why Gaider created room for those abuses in the first place. When he created Dragon Age, the main thing he wanted to ask was "What if magic was actually real?" He wanted to create a world where people responded to magic in a realistic way. The concerns would easily lead to abuse. And most people would justify it. They wouldn't operate on any of the same standard of "human rights" that we ourselves are familiar with. All of that flies right out the window and an entirely new moral paradigm is created that makes room for locking up people as children. Among other things.

That's why I said above that it's gone beyond any realistic moral evalutation. The world itself doesn't even play by the same rules of physics, let alone morality. It's just a bunch of b.s., meant only to get people to fight and argue, I think. lol

The writers' reasons for creating the scenario are irrelevent. I understand perfectly well what they were going for, but that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Guilt by association logic?

I do not know what the **** you are reading, but it's not my posts.

There is no "guilt by association". Every Templar is individually guilty of being a Templar, and everything that that job requires.

Firemen put out fires.

Paramedics perform first aid.

Templars abuse mages.

So does that mean that all mages who we didn't witness denounce the Imperium are slavery, and blood magic supporters?

No, don't be a moron. There is no moral equivalency between being a Mage and being a Templar.

Nope, what you consider abuses are actually the liberties quarantined prisoners living in a pseudo medieval society lack. Does that mean all correction officers = abusers?

[wolfhowwl]

Check your privilege, you mundanes.

If the price of mages being free is you being murdered by abominations and bloodmages running amok, so be it. If you disagree you are an anti-mage bigot!

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
Nope, what you consider abuses are actually the liberties quarantined prisoners living in a pseudo medieval society lack.

The nature of the setting is irrelevent to whether or not the actions of the templars count as abuse.

Does that mean all correction officers = abusers?

Yes.

As I said before, someone could argue that abuse is warranted. They could not argue that it does not occur.

The two arguments are completely different.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2013 - 03:24 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Nope, what you consider abuses are actually the liberties quarantined prisoners living in a pseudo medieval society lack.

The nature of the setting is irrelevent to whether or not the actions of the templars count as abuse.

Does that mean all correction officers = abusers?

Yes.

As I said before, someone could argue that abuse is warranted. They could not argue that it does not occur.

The two arguments are completely different.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.

The written laws of Thedas' individual nations dictates what is, and isn't considered abuse. What's considered as abuse of an individual's rights is wholly determined by the law. Sadly we lack knowledge of  Thedas'  collective law systems to determine what rights quarantined prisoners are supposed to have.

It's pointless to apply the irl standard of civil rights to a fantasy world with rampant slavery, institutionalized discrimination across all it's culture's, while they lack a collective standard of basic rights.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 mai 2013 - 03:51 .

[In Exile]

The Hierophant wrote...
The written laws of Thedas' individual nations dictates what is, and isn't considered abuse.

That should never be our standard. Law tell us what's unlawful. If we start to suppose that laws tell us what's moral, we run into really terrible problems. Now, it might be that the law (in principle) attempts to live up to moral principles. That's important. But that's very different from actually saying that the law defines right/wrong. 

What's considered as abuse of an individual's rights is wholly determined by the law. Sadly we lack knowledge of  Thedas'  collective law systems to determine what rights quarantined prisoners are supposed to have.  

Speaking for our (western) legal systems, the entire process of judicial review is a recognition that laws can be enacted in a way that abuses fundamental rights.

It's pointless to apply the irl standard of civil rights to a fantasy world with rampant slavery, institutionalized discrimination across all it's culture's, while they lack a collective standard of basic rights.

But we're talking about a social revolution here. Ostensibly, what the mages are trying to do is bring about wholesale social change.

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The written laws of Thedas' individual nations dictates what is, and isn't considered abuse.

That should never be our standard. Law tell us what's unlawful. If we start to suppose that laws tell us what's moral, we run into really terrible problems. Now, it might be that the law (in principle) attempts to live up to moral principles. That's important. But that's very different from actually saying that the law defines right/wrong.

True but  it's Thedas, another issue is that we barely know what's morally acceptable by the various cultures of Thedas in terms of individual rights/civil rights. All we're left with is using late 20th & 21 century western morality (ours) to determine what's right and wrong in an alien world with no Miranda Rights, equal rights, due process, parliaments, congresses or constitutional amendments etc.

In Exile wrote...

Speaking for our (western) legal systems, the entire process of judicial review is a recognition that laws can be enacted in a way that abuses fundamental rights.

I understand that but doubt any of Thedas' legal systems operate at that level in order to prevent any potential abuses of the law. 

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It's pointless to apply the irl standard of civil rights to a fantasy world with rampant slavery, institutionalized discrimination across all it's culture's, while they lack a collective standard of basic rights.

But we're talking about a social revolution here. Ostensibly, what the mages are trying to do is bring about wholesale social change.

I get that, but doubt it'll amount to much as mages will potentially be at the mercy of the individual kingdoms of Thedas unless they collectively move to, and establish a nation on some unowned piece of land.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 mai 2013 - 04:43 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

True but they still have to own up to whatever it is they do. My point is that from the end of Asunder on the mages and their supporters can't say, "The Templars made them do it." anymore.

Actually, they completely can. They only can't after the Templar Order is nothing but ash in the wind, because this entire war, along with the entire thousand-year tyranny of the Order itself, has been prosecuted by the templars.

Not really.  Firstly the mages all knew what declaring their independence would mean, they knew it would lead to large scale conflict with the Templars, so in that regard one could hold the mages responsible for the war.  However even if we do agree that the Templars started the war that only allows the mages to say the Templars made them go to war, they are still responsible for how they conduct themselves in that war.  If the mages choose to fight the Templars by sacrificing people by the hundreds to fuel spells to level entire armies on the field that's on them, they can't say the Templars forced them to do that (to use an extreme example).

[EmperorSahlertz]

....Wait, wait, wait, so even the Templars who are merely guarding the Chantry in, for instance, Lothering, with no mages or Cirlce within miles, are also "abusing" mages? That doesn't even make sense....

[Fiery Knight]

Plaintiff wrote...
Templars abuse mages.

This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.