348 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
There is no "guilt by association". Every Templar is individually guilty of being a Templar, and everything that that job requires.

Firemen put out fires.

Paramedics perform first aid.

Templars abuse mages.

No, Templars POLICE mages.

Of coruse, to you it is abuse, but then again, given your zeal and epic levels of bias, it's not surprising.
You'll define anything you don't like as abuse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Hierophant wrote...
The written laws of Thedas' individual nations dictates what is, and isn't considered abuse. What's considered as abuse of an individual's rights is wholly determined by the law. Sadly we lack knowledge of  Thedas'  collective law systems to determine what rights quarantined prisoners are supposed to have.

It's pointless to apply the irl standard of civil rights to a fantasy world with rampant slavery, institutionalized discrimination across all it's culture's, while they lack a collective standard of basic rights.

I don't think basic standard rights matter at all in this case.

They cannot be applied to mages directly. Thedas isn't RL and RL doesn't have to deal with stuff thedas has.

Take a look at the jails, the prison camps and all other forms of confinment and imprisoment the most modern countries of today are using.
You really think if DA mages existed here, that the government of the world would think twice before isolating them?

[Bleachrude]

Hawke_12 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Templars abuse mages.

This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.

It seems like they also act as wandering policemen....In Origins and DAII, the one investigating the abandoned orphanage and the serial killer were templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bleachrude wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Templars abuse mages.

This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.

It seems like they also act as wandering policemen....In Origins and DAII, the one investigating the abandoned orphanage and the serial killer were templars.

Obvious cases of mage abuse. How dare they!

[Harle Cerulean]

Bleachrude wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Templars abuse mages.

This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.

It seems like they also act as wandering policemen....In Origins and DAII, the one investigating the abandoned orphanage and the serial killer were templars.

I think the former is because he felt like there was something unnatural in the alienage, and the latter is because one of the Circle mages, Mharen, was a victim of Quentin.  I'm fairly certain that under normal circumstances the Templars leave mundane matters to the region's guardsmen, and only involve themselves in matters involving magic, mages, and demons.  But that leaves the question of what exactly they do between apostate-hunting jaunts.

As Alistair says, they do more than just hunt mages... we just don't know what exactly that is.  It would be nice to find out.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 23 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders came to Kirkwall to rescue Karl, who wrote him letters about the horros of the Circle of Kirkwall. Karl was his first love, and he was hoping to rescue him. I don't get the impression that Anders was looking to get into a conflict with the templars, but rather rescue Karl. Whether or not the Kirkwall Chantry was locked, his focus was on helping a person he loved at one point in his life.

Clearly, Anders asking Hawke to accompany him showed that he prepared for the worst, but I doubt he would care either way if it meant that Karl was safe. He was heartbroken to see what had happened to Karl - a mage made tranquil illegally by the monster Alrik. 

So children you see, as long as you dfo it for love (and FREEDOM!), then it is okay to break every single law in the book, cut any and all ties and previous agreements, and just follow your heart. Love and freedom makes it a crime, not to commit the crime!

Anders wanted to rescue his first love, Karl, from a tyrannical institution he condemned as slavery. Do you think he should have let Karl suffer when he was reading letters about the horrors of the Circle of Kirkwall? Perhaps you do, but I don't. Karl's fate inspired Anders to join the mage underground, and ultimately follow the course of action that lead to the death of Grand Cleric Elthina and the declaration of mage autonomy several years later. 

I also don't think the morally repugnant rules of the Andrastian Chantry should be enforced, which includes their vilification of blood magic, mages, and the religious views of other people.

[In Exile]

The Hierophant wrote...
True but  it's Thedas, another issue is that we barely know what's morally acceptable by the various cultures of Thedas in terms of individual rights/civil rights. All we're left with is using late 20th & 21 century western morality (ours) to determine what's right and wrong in an alien world with no Miranda Rights, equal rights, due process, parliaments, congresses or constitutional amendments etc.

As a point of legal history, the idea that law is separate from morality is older than that. It goes back to the early 19th century. Before that, the notion that law and morality were related existed, but the actual idea was one of basically natural moral law, i.e., the law was moral because it derived from the moral authority of God (basically). 

Not that Thedas has any actually developed legal system, and obviously Bioware has zero experience with legal scholarship so this point is moot. But for the sake of debate,  I should point it out.

I understand that but doubt any of Thedas' legal systems operate at that level in order to prevent any potential abuses of the law.  

The idea of judicial review is ancient. Like, centuries old ancient. A great example are the Courts of Equity in the UK - we're talking effectively 14th century here. 

What we have today is very complex, but even Thedas would have judges and judicial review. 

So, to clarify, the idea that a law determines rights would still be wrong even in Thedas. It would work the other way - rights (and really facts and the individual judges sense of justice) would determine the law. 

I get that, but doubt it'll amount to much as mages will potentially be at the mercy of the individual kingdoms of Thedas unless they collectively move to, and establish a nation on some unowned piece of land.

No disagreement here. 

[Nightdragon8]

I know of a fireman that set fire's... so just because 1 person does soemthing they are ALL now guilty of it?? Sorry thats alittle too extreme to even try to defend. Because in that case, you better lock yourself up for all crimes that have ever been comited in human history.

BTW, one the lastest mass shootings the person played Mass Effect. Does that mean everyone who plays Mass Effect is a potenial mass shooter?

[Il Divo]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I know of a fireman that set fire's... so just because 1 person does soemthing they are ALL now guilty of it?? Sorry thats alittle too extreme to even try to defend. Because in that case, you better lock yourself up for all crimes that have ever been comited in human history.

BTW, one the lastest mass shootings the person played Mass Effect. Does that mean everyone who plays Mass Effect is a potenial mass shooter?

Terrible argument. Correlation does not imply causation.

There are a million potential factors which go into determining whether or not someone might go crazy on a mass shooting spree.

The question of Mage rights is one that touches on a number of different issues, including:

scale of threat, potential for abuse, etc. It actually has alot in common with the current gun debate laws you see flying around right now. Your average Mage able to cast Fireball is in essence a potential rocket launcher, except he can't put the rocket launcher down and it can go off on its own, if the Mage is in a certain mood. Your average Thedas citizen has maybe a dagger (if that). The scale of the threat that each possesses is quite different.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
There is no "guilt by association". Every Templar is individually guilty of being a Templar, and everything that that job requires.

Firemen put out fires.

Paramedics perform first aid.

Templars abuse mages.

No, Templars POLICE mages.

Of coruse, to you it is abuse, but then again, given your zeal and epic levels of bias, it's not surprising.
You'll define anything you don't like as abuse.

Did your school not have dictionaries or something?

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

....Wait, wait, wait, so even the Templars who are merely guarding the Chantry in, for instance, Lothering, with no mages or Cirlce within miles, are also "abusing" mages? That doesn't even make sense....

Abusing mages is still a fundamental aspect of their job description. The fact that there just don't happen to be any mages around right at that very moment is totally irrelevent. If, for instance, Morrigan's identity as an apostate was revealed to them, they would be required to abuse her.

Hawke_12 wrote...
This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.

I don't see how you can be confused, the game makes it perfectly clear.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Templars abuse mages.

This the problem with DA sometimes. It should be made more clear what the Templars actually do and not portray them as 'evil', since most people tend to get confused, as in this case.

It seems like they also act as wandering policemen....In Origins and DAII, the one investigating the abandoned orphanage and the serial killer were templars.

Obvious cases of mage abuse. How dare they!

The fact that they have other duties besides abusing mages is irrelevent to the fact that they abuse mages. If you see a fireman filling out paperwork, does that mean he never puts out fires? Of course not, the two activites have no connection with each other and doing one does not prevent him from doing the other.

[Fallstar]

SunburnedPenguin wrote...

Putting this here other than in DA2 forum as, well, it didn't happen in DA2 and maybe it could in Inquisition.

And it's my first post so please be kind! Been lurking for years but not posted yet.

So, blood magic happens when a mage strikes a deal with a demon, or is influenced by them in the fade. So why not just destroy the demons that inhabit the fade?

Mages can enter the fade easily enough, and non-mages it seems, so why cant the mages and templars join forces and declare war on the demons instead of eachother?

Blood magic can be learned through several methods that don't involve any contact with demons.

Jowan learns blood magic by studying forbidden books in the circle library. 
The Warden can also learn blood magic by studying a book in Awakening.
Blood magic does not originate from demons anyway, the Archon Thalsian learnt it from Dumat. (This was confirmed in The World of Thedas as well as the DAO codex entries)

Getting rid of demons would be nice for sure, but it would have next to no impact on the number of blood mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

....Wait, wait, wait, so even the Templars who are merely guarding the Chantry in, for instance, Lothering, with no mages or Cirlce within miles, are also "abusing" mages? That doesn't even make sense....

Abusing mages is still a fundamental aspect of their job description. The fact that there just don't happen to be any mages around right at that very moment is totally irrelevent. If, for instance, Morrigan's identity as an apostate was revealed to them, they would be required to abuse her.

They would be required to arrest her, as per the laws of their country. Arrest is not abuse, especially not if the Templars are fully within the right of the law to do so. If she resisted, they would be allowe to use force, but then again, it would not be abuse, since they would have to subdue her for breakingt he law, and defend themselves.

The fact that you don't agree with this particular aspect of Thedosian law, is well known, but you obsesive attempts, nay, NEED to try and stick negative connotaions onto it, is getting very tiresome, and lost its charm a ong time ago.

Plaintiff wrote...
The fact that they have other duties besides abusing mages is irrelevent to the fact that they abuse mages. If you see a fireman filling out paperwork, does that mean he never puts out fires? Of course not, the two activites have no connection with each other and doing one does not prevent him from doing the other.

So a traffic officer is the same as a SWAT member? Yeah... That's a gross simplification, and inaccurate, and plain wrong really. Useless.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 mai 2013 - 09:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DuskWarden wrote...

SunburnedPenguin wrote...

Putting this here other than in DA2 forum as, well, it didn't happen in DA2 and maybe it could in Inquisition.

And it's my first post so please be kind! Been lurking for years but not posted yet.

So, blood magic happens when a mage strikes a deal with a demon, or is influenced by them in the fade. So why not just destroy the demons that inhabit the fade?

Mages can enter the fade easily enough, and non-mages it seems, so why cant the mages and templars join forces and declare war on the demons instead of eachother?

Blood magic can be learned through several methods that don't involve any contact with demons.

Jowan learns blood magic by studying forbidden books in the circle library. 
The Warden can also learn blood magic by studying a book in Awakening.
Blood magic does not originate from demons anyway, the Archon Thalsian learnt it from Dumat. (This was confirmed in The World of Thedas as well as the DAO codex entries)

Getting rid of demons would be nice for sure, but it would have next to no impact on the number of blood mages.

1: You don't know exactly what Jowan learned, or waht was in the book. So that is not a conclusive argument.
2: Pure gameplay. Not conclusive in the slightest.
3: No World of Thedas confirmed no such thing. The only thing that World of Thedas confirmed, was that the Archon claimed to have learned it from Dumat. Again, not conclusive.

[MisterJB]

Wouldn't learning blood magic from Dumat himself be even more damning than from your average demon anyway?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I suppose that would depend on the benevolence of the Old Gods, prior to their corruption.

[MisterJB]

Well, the common worship rites of the Old Gods involved human sacrifices. We could say that this was human folly but if we accept the Magisters of Old were capable of contacting the Old Gods, it follows they could just tell the Magisters to stop.

As for the corruption, the Taint doesn't appear capable of steering one's mind towards a different moral allignement with Larius being a prime example. Likewise, the Awakened Darkspawn are wholly corrupted but they can act in a benevolent manner.
The other Darkspawn destroy because they have no mind of their own. Altough the validity of "The Darkspawn Chronicles" is questionable at best, Urthemiel is capable not only of rational thought but even of sadism in there. Thus, logic dictates he should be able to decide his own actions much like other Tainted but sentient creatures have shown to be capable of doing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 mai 2013 - 10:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, the Old Gods were not trying to eradicate all life prior to their corruption. So something must change their priorities, when they are corrupted. I'm not trying to say that they were benevolent, just that when they become Archdemons, they change in more ways, than just a physical one.

[MisterJB]

It could simply be because they were locked away and thus unable to eradicate anything.
It's true that, according to the Chantry, they were imprisioned because they drove humanity away from the Maker which suggests their goal was to be worshipped which requires devouts.
Maybe the darkspawn make better servants.

[MisterJB]

Maybe it was all part of the plan.
Teach blood magic to some select mortals; empower them to build an empire; encourage Tevinter culture to adopt a "survival of the fittest" mentality (Mr.Gaider once wrote that it were the Old Gods who encouraged Tevinter to destroy Arlathan); the result being a group of mages who heeded their words with acess to enough lyrium and blood to physically enter the Golden City.
Dumat could have known that entering it would have created the only creatures capable of freeing him and who would also serve as the perfect army.

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
True but  it's Thedas, another issue is that we barely know what's morally acceptable by the various cultures of Thedas in terms of individual rights/civil rights. All we're left with is using late 20th & 21 century western morality (ours) to determine what's right and wrong in an alien world with no Miranda Rights, equal rights, due process, parliaments, congresses or constitutional amendments etc.

As a point of legal history, the idea that law is separate from morality is older than that. It goes back to the early 19th century. Before that, the notion that law and morality were related existed, but the actual idea was one of basically natural moral law, i.e., the law was moral because it derived from the moral authority of God (basically). 

Not that Thedas has any actually developed legal system, and obviously Bioware has zero experience with legal scholarship so this point is moot. But for the sake of debate,  I should point it out.

Thanks for the correcton and info

I understand that but doubt any of Thedas' legal systems operate at that level in order to prevent any potential abuses of the law.  

The idea of judicial review is ancient. Like, centuries old ancient. A great example are the Courts of Equity in the UK - we're talking effectively 14th century here. 

What we have today is very complex, but even Thedas would have judges and judicial review. 

So, to clarify, the idea that a law determines rights would still be wrong even in Thedas. It would work the other way - rights (and really facts and the individual judges sense of justice) would determine the law.

True, but what about the Qunari as i figured it would be the case for them?

Meh looking back on it now, all of the skullduggery in Kirkwall has subconsciously made me pessimistic towards Thedosian's collective intellectual capacity, and abilties to employ common sense,  while leaving out the crazy from their legal systems. Hopefully what happens in DA2 stays in DA2.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 mai 2013 - 11:00 .