348 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
I know of a fireman that set fire's... so just because 1 person does soemthing they are ALL now guilty of it??

 
No it means they're all capable of it.  Now let's say your friend could start fires with his mind, and by accident.  Now let's say that your friend is actually one of many who can do this and there are more and more children being born every year who can as well.  Now would you not agree that something needs to be done in order to protect the rest of the population from people like your friend and what they might do either out of malice or by accident, as well as protect them from harming themselves (again intentionally or by accident)

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Sorry thats alittle too extreme to even try to defend. Because in that case, you better lock yourself up for all crimes that have ever been comited in human history.

BTW, one the lastest mass shootings the person played Mass Effect. Does that mean everyone who plays Mass Effect is a potenial mass shooter?

Yes, yes it does.  However so is everyone who didn't play Mass Effect.  Every society acknowledges the capacity of it's people to do harm, intentional or otherwise, and each society developes measures to mitigate that harm.  The greater your capacity to do harm the more restrictions are typically placed on you.  Now faced with people with an exceptional capacity to do harm armed with nothing but their minds Thedas has developed the Circle.

They have isolated the people who could potentially destroy a village by accident from the rest of the population and allowed them to learn and practice with their abilities more or less freely, surrounded by people capable of containing the fallout of any accidents that may occur.  Could the system stand to be better, sure, but can you honestly think of something that allows the mages more liberty without increasing the danger for the rest of the population, or provides the general populace with equal or better protection that doesn't place even more restrictions on mages?

And if you don't care about the safety of the general populace so long as the mages have liberty, how are you any better than the Templars?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Blood magic can be learned through several methods that don't involve any contact with demons.

Jowan learns blood magic by studying forbidden books in the circle library. 
The Warden can also learn blood magic by studying a book in Awakening.
Blood magic does not originate from demons anyway, the Archon Thalsian learnt it from Dumat. (This was confirmed in The World of Thedas as well as the DAO codex entries)

Getting rid of demons would be nice for sure, but it would have next to no impact on the number of blood mages.

1: You don't know exactly what Jowan learned, or waht was in the book. So that is not a conclusive argument.

Are you suggesting Jowan used the book to summon a demon and bend the demon to his will?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

2: Pure gameplay. Not conclusive in the slightest.

What about the Orlesian Warden verbally asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic? At a point in time the Orlesian Warden takes her to be a blood mage, and nothing more.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

3: No World of Thedas confirmed no such thing. The only thing that World of Thedas confirmed, was that the Archon claimed to have learned it from Dumat. Again, not conclusive. 

The WoT reads that some mages teach their apprentices blood magic.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They would be required to arrest her, as per the laws of their country. Arrest is not abuse, especially not if the Templars are fully within the right of the law to do so. If she resisted, they would be allowe to use force, but then again, it would not be abuse, since they would have to subdue her for breakingt he law, and defend themselves.

The law is irrelevent. Abuse has been legalized in other places and times before, but it was still abuse.

The fact that you don't agree with this particular aspect of Thedosian law, is well known, but you obsesive attempts, nay, NEED to try and stick negative connotaions onto it, is getting very tiresome, and lost its charm a ong time ago.

Whereas I was sick of your blind adherence to clearly unjust laws the first time you demonstrated it

Plaintiff wrote...
So a traffic officer is the same as a SWAT member?

Herp derp. No, that's not an adequate comparison at all.

Yeah... That's a gross simplification, and inaccurate, and plain wrong really. Useless.

If you knew it was a stupid comparison, why did you make it?

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...

Blood magic can be learned through several methods that don't involve any contact with demons.

Jowan learns blood magic by studying forbidden books in the circle library. 
The Warden can also learn blood magic by studying a book in Awakening.
Blood magic does not originate from demons anyway, the Archon Thalsian learnt it from Dumat. (This was confirmed in The World of Thedas as well as the DAO codex entries)

Getting rid of demons would be nice for sure, but it would have next to no impact on the number of blood mages.
[/quote]

1: You don't know exactly what Jowan learned, or waht was in the book. So that is not a conclusive argument. [/quote]

Are you suggesting Jowan used the book to summon a demon and bend the demon to his will?[/quote]
COuld be. Or maybe he made a deal with a demon. Whichever he did, he is certainly naive enough to try.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

2: Pure gameplay. Not conclusive in the slightest. [/quote]

What about the Orlesian Warden verbally asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic? At a point in time the Orlesian Warden takes her to be a blood mage, and nothing more.[/quote]
So? The Warden obviously had no knowledge of blood magic, otheriwse he wouldn't ask, so that proves nothing.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

3: No World of Thedas confirmed no such thing. The only thing that World of Thedas confirmed, was that the Archon claimed to have learned it from Dumat. Again, not conclusive. [/quote]

The WoT reads that some mages teach their apprentices blood magic.[/quote]
Again, this proves nothing. I am not saying that you have to learn ALL kinds of blood magic from demons. Only that it might be neccesary to initially make some form of deal with a demon, to be able to use blood magic. After that it might be fully possible to learn more, from books and other blood mages.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They would be required to arrest her, as per the laws of their country. Arrest is not abuse, especially not if the Templars are fully within the right of the law to do so. If she resisted, they would be allowe to use force, but then again, it would not be abuse, since they would have to subdue her for breakingt he law, and defend themselves.[/quote]
The law is irrelevent. Abuse has been legalized in other places and times before, but it was still abuse.[/quote]
Laws are usually a reflection of the morality of the society in which they are uphold. You seeing it as abuse is irrelevant, since it really is a notoriously narrow view you have. Your abject failure at understanding the Thedosian state of mind, and thier morality, shows that you cannot make a qualified judgement of the political, and societal state of affairs in Thedas.
We can agree that some Templars abuse the mages, hell we have undeniable proof of this happening. But to say that ALL Templars abuse the mages, by simply being Templars are flat out wrong.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
[quote]The fact that you don't agree with this particular aspect of Thedosian law, is well known, but you obsesive attempts, nay, NEED to try and stick negative connotaions onto it, is getting very tiresome, and lost its charm a ong time ago.[/quote]
Whereas I was sick of your blind adherence to clearly unjust laws the first time you demonstrated it[/quote]
My adherence is not to the law, but to order. There must be order, for society to evolve peacefully. What you advocate would bring about a period of chaos, that might aswell tear down society as it might help evovle it.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
[quote]So a traffic officer is the same as a SWAT member?[/quote]
Herp derp. No, that's not an adequate comparison at all.

[quote]Yeah... That's a gross simplification, and inaccurate, and plain wrong really. Useless.
[/quote]
If you knew it was a stupid comparison, why did you make it?[/quote]
Because I was using it to perfectly illustrate your moronic statement about Templars.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 mai 2013 - 01:21 .

[MisterJB]

"The Witcher 2" knows what is a simple solution to the blood magic problem. SPOILERS BTW

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you suggesting Jowan used the book to summon a demon and bend the demon to his will?

COuld be. Or maybe he made a deal with a demon. Whichever he did, he is certainly naive enough to try.

Jowan would be an abomination if he fell prey to a demon, and I don't see him outsmarting a demon.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the Orlesian Warden verbally asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic? At a point in time the Orlesian Warden takes her to be a blood mage, and nothing more.

So? The Warden obviously had no knowledge of blood magic, otheriwse he wouldn't ask, so that proves nothing.

It's an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts (who was recognized by Empress Celene herself) asking another mage to teach him blood magic. If it wasn't possible to learn blood magic from another mage, then the Orlesian Warden wouldn't have asked in the first place.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The WoT reads that some mages teach their apprentices blood magic.

Again, this proves nothing. I am not saying that you have to learn ALL kinds of blood magic from demons. Only that it might be neccesary to initially make some form of deal with a demon, to be able to use blood magic. After that it might be fully possible to learn more, from books and other blood mages.

If another mage can teach another mage blood magic, then it's not limited to demons. It's really as simple as that. That's also why some scholars believe the Arlathan elves may have taught the Tevinter mages blood magic

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you suggesting Jowan used the book to summon a demon and bend the demon to his will?

COuld be. Or maybe he made a deal with a demon. Whichever he did, he is certainly naive enough to try.

Jowan would be an abomination if he fell prey to a demon, and I don't see him outsmarting a demon.

Quite likely. However, Jowan might have been able to makea  deal with a demon, along the lines of "give me the power now, then you can have my soul in ten years time." I am not about to presume to understand the motivations of demons. So it might not be about outsmarting, it might just be Jowan being the tool he is, and the demon wanting a stronger vessel, which he would become after a few years with blood magic trainning.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the Orlesian Warden verbally asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic? At a point in time the Orlesian Warden takes her to be a blood mage, and nothing more.

So? The Warden obviously had no knowledge of blood magic, otheriwse he wouldn't ask, so that proves nothing.

It's an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts (who was recognized by Empress Celene herself) asking another mage to teach him blood magic. If it wasn't possible to learn blood magic from another mage, then the Orlesian Warden wouldn't have asked in the first place.

If it was true, what you say, that the emre knowledge of blood amgic would be enough to cast blood magic, then this learned scholar of yours, would already be a blood mage, and his entire request would be moot. However, since he obviously is not a blood mage, and that he has to ask for it, shows that he either knows nothing about it, or that he knows there are some parts of Blood Magic, which require some effort to learn, of one kind or another.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The WoT reads that some mages teach their apprentices blood magic.

Again, this proves nothing. I am not saying that you have to learn ALL kinds of blood magic from demons. Only that it might be neccesary to initially make some form of deal with a demon, to be able to use blood magic. After that it might be fully possible to learn more, from books and other blood mages.

If another mage can teach another mage blood magic, then it's not limited to demons. It's really as simple as that. That's also why some scholars believe the Arlathan elves may have taught the Tevinter mages blood magic

Again, what I am saying is not that a blood mage can't teach blood magic spells to another mage. What I am saying is that it may be so, that this other mage might first have to make a deal with a demon, to be able to cast these spells in the first place.

[Plaintiff]

Laws are usually a reflection of the morality of the society in which they are uphold.

And some societies have been and currently are grossly immoral, and so is their law.

You seeing it as abuse is irrelevant, since it really is a notoriously narrow view you have. Your abject failure at understanding the Thedosian state of mind, and thier morality, shows that you cannot make a qualified judgement of the political, and societal state of affairs in Thedas.

I don't need to understand the "state of mind" of the abusers of Thedas, any more than I need to "understand" Westboro Baptists or the KKK. How they personally feel about their abusive actions is irrelevent and changes nothing.

My adherence is not to the law, but to order. There must be order, for society to evolve peacefully. What you advocate would bring about a period of chaos, that might aswell tear down society as it might help evovle it.

When has society ever "evolved peacefully"? It hasn't. Great social change has almost always involved violence, even when those trying to make the change did so purely through peaceful means. If characters like Anders and Fiona aren't exactly Ghandi expies, it's because they understand that the option for peaceful change in Thedas never existed.

Because I was using it to perfectly illustrate your moronic statement about Templars.

But you did nothing of the kind. All you managed to demonstrate was a complete lack of understanding of my argument.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Laws are usually a reflection of the morality of the society in which they are uphold.

And some societies have been and currently are grossly immoral, and so is their law.

Ah yes, I had forgotten you appointed yourself the absolute and object authority on all matters of a moral nature. My bad.

Plaintiff wrote...

You seeing it as abuse is irrelevant, since it really is a notoriously narrow view you have. Your abject failure at understanding the Thedosian state of mind, and thier morality, shows that you cannot make a qualified judgement of the political, and societal state of affairs in Thedas.

I don't need to understand the "state of mind" of the abusers of Thedas, any more than I need to "understand" Westboro Baptists or the KKK. How they personally feel about their abusive actions is irrelevent and changes nothing.

Understanding is the first step. If you understand you opponent, you will be able to come up with a more intellegent rebukal of their points of view than simply: "OMGZORS you are wrong and I IS RIGHT! just Becasue! DUH!", which at the end of the day, will lead to much more enlightened conversations you will have in general in your life.

Plaintiff wrote...

My adherence is not to the law, but to order. There must be order, for society to evolve peacefully. What you advocate would bring about a period of chaos, that might aswell tear down society as it might help evovle it.

When has society ever "evolved peacefully"? It hasn't. Great social change has almost always involved violence, even when those trying to make the change did so purely through peaceful means. If characters like Anders and Fiona aren't exactly Ghandi expies, it's because they understand that the option for peaceful change in Thedas never existed.

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful, gandhi's fight against the caste system was also remarkably peaceful (at least from his side), women equality also seems to be comming along rather peacefully, so does gay rights. Of course, there have always been, and will always be, some outliners who are going about pushing some agenda violently, but those should be dealt with appropriately. Within the law.

Plaintiff wrote...

Because I was using it to perfectly illustrate your moronic statement about Templars.

But you did nothing of the kind. All you managed to demonstrate was a complete lack of understanding of my argument.

You statement was that ALL Templars abuse Mages, even the ones who objectively does not. That is a moronic statement, thus it should be pointed out as such, and it will remain such, until you reassess your statement.

[Xilizhra]

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful,

It's a remarkable insight into the mind of a templar supporter when centuries of brutal oppression, great numbers of revolts, and the bloodiest ****ing war in American history counts as "peaceful."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful,

It's a remarkable insight into the mind of a templar supporter when centuries of brutal oppression, great numbers of revolts, and the bloodiest ****ing war in American history counts as "peaceful."

If you think that the civil war was about slavery, then you are fooling yourself.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful,

It's a remarkable insight into the mind of a templar supporter when centuries of brutal oppression, great numbers of revolts, and the bloodiest ****ing war in American history counts as "peaceful."

If you think that the civil war was about slavery, then you are fooling yourself.

It wasn't exclusively about slavery, but slavery was always one of the central issues. Especially for black people, both the Union's soldiers and the liberated slaves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful,

It's a remarkable insight into the mind of a templar supporter when centuries of brutal oppression, great numbers of revolts, and the bloodiest ****ing war in American history counts as "peaceful."

If you think that the civil war was about slavery, then you are fooling yourself.

It wasn't exclusively about slavery, but slavery was always one of the central issues. Especially for black people, both the Union's soldiers and the liberated slaves.

The north didn't give two pots of ****** about slaves... It is a common misconception that they did, but it was really not their priority, nor was it at any point the reason for hostility between the north and the south.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Last I checked, the african-american fight for equal rights has been remarkably peaceful,

It's a remarkable insight into the mind of a templar supporter when centuries of brutal oppression, great numbers of revolts, and the bloodiest ****ing war in American history counts as "peaceful."

If you think that the civil war was about slavery, then you are fooling yourself.

It wasn't exclusively about slavery, but slavery was always one of the central issues. Especially for black people, both the Union's soldiers and the liberated slaves.

The north didn't give two pots of ****** about slaves... It is a common misconception that they did, but it was really not their priority, nor was it at any point the reason for hostility between the north and the south.

Oh, to be sure, most northern whites were racist, but the abolitionist movement was a powerful one. John Brown was remarkably popular after his Harper's Ferry raid. Lincoln had his own racist tendencies, but disliked slavery and refused a chance to preserve the Union by also preserving slavery forever. It's also amusing/depressing how you referred to "the North" as meaning exclusively whites.
As for the Confederacy, may they all rot in the hell of traitors, well, the fact that black people weren't equal to white people was literally the founding philosophy of that government according to the author of its constitution.

[lil yonce]

African Americans went from slavery to sharecropping and Jim Crow-- essentially slavery.

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

African Americans went from slavery to sharecropping and Jim Crow-- essentially slavery.

It wasn't a terribly smooth transition and didn't go that well at first, but it was a major step regardless. Once blacks were equal in theory, then progress could be made toward having them be equal in practice.

[ArcaneJTM]

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, to be sure, most northern whites were racist, but the abolitionist movement was a powerful one. John Brown was remarkably popular after his Harper's Ferry raid. Lincoln had his own racist tendencies, but disliked slavery and refused a chance to preserve the Union by also preserving slavery forever. It's also amusing/depressing how you referred to "the North" as meaning exclusively whites.
As for the Confederacy, may they all rot in the hell of traitors, well, the fact that black people weren't equal to white people was literally the founding philosophy of that government according to the author of its constitution.

Actually that's another common misconception.  That particular clause was put in there as a compromise to satisfy the southern states and eventually help eliminate the slave trade in the U.S altogether.

EDIT: Nevermind.  Misread your post.

Modifié par ArcaneJTM, 26 mai 2013 - 03:09 .

[lil yonce]

In many ways I think the debate on how mages should go about freedom and equality is similar to Frederick Douglass vs John Brown, or Booker T. Washington vs WEB Dubois, or MLK vs Malcolm X. My views are similar to Douglass, Washington, and King's.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 mai 2013 - 03:19 .

[Riknas]

I'm seriously disappointed no one's tried to put an abstinence joke in here.

[Xilizhra]

Actually that's another common misconception. That particular clause was put in there as a compromise to satisfy the southern states and eventually help eliminate the slave trade in the U.S altogether.

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the ****** is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

In many ways I think the debate on how mages should go about freedom and equality is similar to Frederick Douglass vs Jim Brown, or Booker T. Washington vs WEB Dubois, or MLK vs Malcolm X. My views are similar to Douglass, Washington, and King's.

Washington was an accommodationist wimp, and John Brown was... gray, to be sure, but certainly heroic in intent.

[ArcaneJTM]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually that's another common misconception. That particular clause was put in there as a compromise to satisfy the southern states and eventually help eliminate the slave trade in the U.S altogether.

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the ****** is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

Yeah, sorry.  Just realized I misread your post.  Thought you were refering to the U.S. constitution rather than the confederate one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I notice nobody's bringing up South Africa's struggle for racial equality. I don't know enough to say whether or not what won their political enfranchisement was violence, but some of the groups that formed and were crushed in their turn certainly turned violent before the end. I don't know enough to say how many, however from what I learned in my African Art History class a lot of the major ones got their wires crossed. Part of the reason for this was that the South African government was pretty harsh when confronted with peaceful protests; they didn't bother with firehoses, they just shot everyone they saw. A lot of the groups for equality certainly tried to be nonviolent, but through no real fault of the disenfranchised, things didn't always work out that way.

I think the reason South Africa went so far to hell was because they used harsher methods, which they could do because they didn't have to disguise their actions to a federal government with the power to overrule them and force them to toe the line. Thus, the South African governments actions are a better litmus for the Chantry's actions than the Southern US; the Chantry isn't technically beholden to anyone more inclined to mercy than they are. This is even more true of the Templars, who as of Asunder have discarded the Chantry elements that were keeping them somewhat under control. And that probably means this is going to turn ugly. (Which we already knew anyway.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 mai 2013 - 05:09 .

[KingGunDragon]

Finding the maker and talking him in to returning would be the the best way to do way with all the magic issues . Hell it would fix every thing. How ever this is not likely the last game so this will most likely not be a option. There for my reaver with a gold heart will try to hold the world together by showing that magic can be used to help the world even if its is eating peoples soul ( on a side note can a reaver truely kill a demon by eating its soul ?) And if this dosent work well I guess i can always find the most sane people on both sides let them live and then eat the crazys peoples souls.

Blood magic while a dark power is not truely evil its simply a tool to be used a tool that can bit you in the a.. if you not careful.

As for invading the fade well my Reaver character to come and my Templar Hawk would gladly do it if it was to try and find the Maker. As for the worden well i guess he is already in the fade with the love of his life and has no real care left for the mortal world.