348 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

Catroi wrote...

Demons are the manifestations of people's emotions (totally stolen from Warhammer lore btw...) so unless you make every single being a Tranquil you wont be able to destroy the demons.

That is contradictory to the generally accepted (by the Chantry, as well as the Dalish) view that Demons and Spirits are "the Maker's first children". First, meaning they existed before people/mortals (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Kossith, what have you) existed.

So at least one of these statements about demons must be false.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 20 mai 2013 - 03:18 .

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...
I suppose the demons might get organized, but beyond that, there doesn't seem to be that much left that's wholly alien.

Well, we've seen only a tiny fraction of the entire known continent, and we know there are continents beyond it that have yet to be discovered in-game. Thedas is still a land of many mysteries.

But it doesn't have to be alien. The blurb from the supposed leaked survey spoke of some sort of proverbial puppet master manipulating events, there's no reason such an individual couldn't simply be a very intelligent, but mundane individual. Not to say that the writers are actually going that way, but they could.

Regardless, I highly doubt that the Qunri are going to be dealt with in any conclusive way. As much as I would like to eradicate them completely, I expect they will be a persistent presence in the background of the setting until the series ends.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 mai 2013 - 03:32 .

[Xilizhra]

But it doesn't have to be alien. The blurb from the supposedly leaked survey spoke of some sort of proverbial puppet master manipulating events, there's no reason such an individual couldn't simply be a very intelligent, but mundane individual.

It's possible, but magic would be remarkably helpful for this kind of operation.

But regardless, I highly doubt that the writers are going to "deal" with the Qunari in any conclusive way. As much as I would like to eradicate them completely, I expect they will be a persistent presence in the background of the setting until the series ends.

Then have them be the second-to-last foe in the series in the game with the same position, having the last game be against someone different and probably apocalyptic.

[Red Templar]

billy the squid wrote...

^Which is why the mages as the terrorist/ supremacist faction can and are likely to be defeated in the oncoming conflict with the Chantry. The mages represent the move towards Tevinter and the destruction of moral values as per Chantry teachings.

I find this unlikely. And as someone who, sanely, comes down on the templar side of the issue I have to admit I wouldn't think it is good writing. A simple reset is poor storytelling. Returning the status quo after reaching a crisis point renders the narrative pointless and episodic. A compelling world narrative should move from crisis to crisis without having to retreat back to the state of neutrality that preceded the initial conflict.

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

[Homebound]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Qunari are just a foil. When Gaider himself calls them "Militant Islamist Borg", I'm pretty sure there isn't going to be the brightest future for them. There isn't much hope when your main writer is making jokes too.

so much for subtlety.

[Xilizhra]

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

Ideal mage victory is fine. They don't have to govern everything personally, just help set up a system that doesn't screw over everyone. And sucking up to templar ideals is bad narrative structure as well.

so much for subtlety.

The qunari are not subtle. They're a giant warhammer with horns on it, that whacks people in the genitalia in such a way that some of them start to like it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 mai 2013 - 03:38 .

[Homebound]

Xilizhra wrote...

so much for subtlety.

The qunari are not subtle. They're a giant warhammer with horns on it, that whacks people in the genitalia in such a way that some of them start to like it.

explains all the qunari mance thread pre da2 launch.

[billy the squid]

Red Templar wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

^Which is why the mages as the terrorist/ supremacist faction can and are likely to be defeated in the oncoming conflict with the Chantry. The mages represent the move towards Tevinter and the destruction of moral values as per Chantry teachings.

I find this unlikely. And as someone who, sanely, comes down on the templar side of the issue I have to admit I wouldn't think it is good writing. A simple reset is poor storytelling. Returning the status quo after reaching a crisis point renders the narrative pointless and episodic. A compelling world narrative should move from crisis to crisis without having to retreat back to the state of neutrality that preceded the initial conflict.

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

Who said anything about a reset?

I think returning to the status Quo isn't an option and it never will be. Templar victory doesn't necessitate a return to the status quo, it can mean complete totalitarian lockdown and extermination of mages by an all powerful Theoocracy based on feudal nepotism. Effectively a mass Right of Annulment across all Chantry domains. 

Although I'd like to see the supremacist factions of the Circle, which clearly exist, simply for the vindication of the Qun.

Either way, Templar or Mage victory, which ever faction is left is going to come into conflict with the Qunari.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

^Which is why the mages as the terrorist/ supremacist faction can and are likely to be defeated in the oncoming conflict with the Chantry. The mages represent the move towards Tevinter and the destruction of moral values as per Chantry teachings.

Yes, this is likely to happen to any actual supremacist groups that we see. However, it will not happen to the actual prime mage rebel faction, which shows no signs of supremacism from either the games or Asunder.

Because the Chantry is going to make a distinction between the "good" mages and the "bad" mages and just give up? a continent spanning Theocracy doesn't strike me as the most rational thinking group. 

Hence we come to total Chantry victory, not a return to the status quo, but total extermination of a racial group, or the ultra supremecist dominance of the mage factions, decending into chaos as no group can establish a system of governece and devolves into a Tevinter style Mage dictatorship. 

Ideal mage freedom, rainbow coalition, we all live in peace is daft. Unlikely to happen goven the current mess.

[DKJaigen]

billy the squid wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

^Which is why the mages as the terrorist/ supremacist faction can and are likely to be defeated in the oncoming conflict with the Chantry. The mages represent the move towards Tevinter and the destruction of moral values as per Chantry teachings.

I find this unlikely. And as someone who, sanely, comes down on the templar side of the issue I have to admit I wouldn't think it is good writing. A simple reset is poor storytelling. Returning the status quo after reaching a crisis point renders the narrative pointless and episodic. A compelling world narrative should move from crisis to crisis without having to retreat back to the state of neutrality that preceded the initial conflict.

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

Who said anything about a reset?

I think returning to the status Quo isn't an option and it never will be. Templar victory doesn't necessitate a return to the status quo, it can mean complete totalitarian lockdown and extermination of mages by an all powerful Theoocracy based on feudal nepotism. Effectively a mass Right of Annulment across all Chantry domains. 

Although I'd like to see the supremacist factions of the Circle, which clearly exist, simply for the vindication of the Qun.

Either way, Templar or Mage victory, which ever faction is left is going to come into conflict with the Qunari.

The chantry and the templars for all their hatred for magic will not survive without it. Either the the tevinter imperium wipes out the chantry or the qunuari. Or in a worst case scenanrio: a new blight hits. choosing tthe templars is like the refuse option in me 3

[Xilizhra]

Because the Chantry is going to make a distinction between the "good" mages and the "bad" mages and just give up? a continent spanning Theocracy doesn't strike me as the most rational thinking group.

It already did. The Chantry decided not to pursue war against the mages for secession. The Templars split off from the Chantry to conduct the war unilaterally. Also, the Chantry isn't actually a government, and is hence not a theocracy.

Ideal mage freedom, rainbow coalition, we all live in peace is daft. Unlikely to happen goven the current mess.

Unlikely, but the only thing worth pursuing. And it was unlikely to survive fighting the Archdemon too.

[billy the squid]

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

^Which is why the mages as the terrorist/ supremacist faction can and are likely to be defeated in the oncoming conflict with the Chantry. The mages represent the move towards Tevinter and the destruction of moral values as per Chantry teachings.

I find this unlikely. And as someone who, sanely, comes down on the templar side of the issue I have to admit I wouldn't think it is good writing. A simple reset is poor storytelling. Returning the status quo after reaching a crisis point renders the narrative pointless and episodic. A compelling world narrative should move from crisis to crisis without having to retreat back to the state of neutrality that preceded the initial conflict.

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

Who said anything about a reset?

I think returning to the status Quo isn't an option and it never will be. Templar victory doesn't necessitate a return to the status quo, it can mean complete totalitarian lockdown and extermination of mages by an all powerful Theoocracy based on feudal nepotism. Effectively a mass Right of Annulment across all Chantry domains. 

Although I'd like to see the supremacist factions of the Circle, which clearly exist, simply for the vindication of the Qun.

Either way, Templar or Mage victory, which ever faction is left is going to come into conflict with the Qunari.

The chantry and the templars for all their hatred for magic will not survive without it. Either the the tevinter imperium wipes out the chantry or the qunuari. Or in a worst case scenanrio: a new blight hits. choosing tthe templars is like the refuse option in me 3

This is stupid.

The Tevinter Imperium is in a state of war with the Qunari already, and losing.

Another blight would be utterly dumb, and I hope Gaider isn't that stupid either, something he didn't want to go for in DA2, especially after the previous one was only 10 years ago.

[Xilizhra]

Well, we have to beat the qunari somehow. Either we have a government and magical power coherent enough to win conventionally, or the entire society can be taken out with a magic bullet, as I showed a possibility for in my "supernatural Qun" thread.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the Chantry is going to make a distinction between the "good" mages and the "bad" mages and just give up? a continent spanning Theocracy doesn't strike me as the most rational thinking group.

It already did. The Chantry decided not to pursue war against the mages for secession. The Templars split off from the Chantry to conduct the war unilaterally. Also, the Chantry isn't actually a government, and is hence not a theocracy.

Ideal mage freedom, rainbow coalition, we all live in peace is daft. Unlikely to happen goven the current mess.

Unlikely, but the only thing worth pursuing. And it was unlikely to survive fighting the Archdemon too.

Considering the Templars are the militant arm of the Chantry, the Chantry ie: priesthood saying they're not pursuing a war doesn't mean a huge deal. But, regardless You're going to try and negotiate with the Templars, when as you just said they've started a war unilaterally?

The mage idealist move, is simply the status quo, just a bit nicer. Uness it's mage supremacy and movement of the mages into areas of authority to eliminate the Templar threat, who after all have retaliated against Anders' terrorist act. Then you'll still have the Templars declaring war against the Mages. 

Blight. I doubt will be in DA3, that'd just be silly to have another "oh my god Darkspawn" pop up a couple of decades later.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we have to beat the qunari somehow. Either we have a government and magical power coherent enough to win conventionally, or the entire society can be taken out with a magic bullet, as I showed a possibility for in my "supernatural Qun" thread.

Your supernatural Qun thread was tin foil hat theories. 

And a single magic bullet to explain everything is about as bad as writing gets. It was plain to see in DA2, the hairbrained behaviour of people in act 3 was attributed to magic. 

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

Another blight is easily possible. If you saved the architect, you have a potential dude who might wake yet another archdemon up. If you didn't save the architect, you still have a potential Corphyeus mobilizing a lot of darkspawn with his "song". He might even get the Architect's former adherents on his side. Like the Mother, some of them miss the "song". She actually preferred being controlled in a hive mind. This could all spark a pseudo blight. Perhaps not with an archdemon, but a newly powered Corypheus this time around. In addition to that, he might even entice Grey Wardens. Then people are screwed even worse than other blights.

Problem being that several of these rely on save imports which have proved problomatic in DA2 already or have already been subject to retcons. You end up opening a huge can of worms.

[Red Templar]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the narrative knows where it is going and isn't going to pull a ME3, the thing to expect and hope for would be a mage jihadist victory that tacitly vindicates the templar system by actualizing the alternative; i.e. the mages prove unable to create and adminster an equally effective system, to the result of factionalism, anarchy, and the common muggle suffering under the despotic oligarchy of a lazer-spewing master race. That would maintain narrative momentum without the engine stalling and having to start again from first gear, as it were. Either an ideal mage victory or a successful return to the status quo by the templars would be too much of a clean fix to be credible.

Ideal mage victory is fine. They don't have to govern everything personally, just help set up a system that doesn't screw over everyone. And sucking up to templar ideals is bad narrative structure as well.

What is this system that doesn't screw over "everyone". "Everyone" certainly wasn't screwed over by the past system, and as discussed to death there is no alternative system that doesn't screw over *someone*. Either a system infinges on mage freedom to the point that non-mages are safe from them, or people have to live in fear so that mage freedom is sacrosanct. Same fundamental dilemmas as the gun control debate, compounded by the inherent problems of militant revolution. Armed revolutionaries with no united plan for replacing the system that they tear down don't magically form stable governments. History attests this. It occured throughout post-colonial Africa, and we'll see it play out in Syria soon enough.

Now, assuming for the sake of argument that an ideal mage victory is possible, why should the narrative desire this? It is less plausible than the alternative, because perfect solutions to complicated conflicts are not in the nature of human beings, nor is such in the design plan of the DA setting, which is deliberately morally complicated. "Mages were right, templars were wrong, let's build a better world" is a narrative for children.

"And sucking up to templar ideals is bad narrative structure as well."

Bad structure? Noooo. It would have nothing to with structure. If badly handled it would be a form of thematic dissonance, but stucture is about form and not about content.

Besides, showing the same conflict from a new perspective, with the position of dominance changing from one party to the other, is good progression. Your rapid antipathy for one side isn't something that the narrative has to cater to. The objective should be to show a complicated issue and difficult struggle from different perspectives in a nuanced way. This isn't some fetishized Tarantino revenge fantasy.

Modifié par Red Templar, 20 mai 2013 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

What is this system that doesn't screw over "everyone". "Everyone" certainly wasn't screwed over by the past system, and as discussed to death there is no alternative system that doesn't screw over *someone*. Either a system infinges on mage freedom to the point that non-mages are safe from them, or people have to live in fear so that mage freedom is sacrosanct. Same fundamental dilemmas as the gun control debate, compounded by the inherit problems of militant revolution. Armed revolutionaries with no united plan for replacing the system that they tear down don't magically form stable governments. History attests this. It occured throughout post-colonial Africa, and we'll see it play out in Syria soon enough.

That's a false dichotomy. It's not infringing on mage freedoms to have law enforcement officials who have templar powers but don't keep mages constantly imprisoned. Protecting mages from demons may require more stringent efforts, but in that case the motive and mentality are completely different from what we have as of now. Also, the mage rebellion isn't trying to tear down any governments or create wholly new ones, just trying to defeat the rabid army of murderous addicts that no longer reports to anyone whatsoever, trying to kill them all.

Now, assuming for the sake of argument that a ideal mage victory is possible, why should the narrative desire this? It is less plausible than the alternative, because perfect solutions to complicated conflicts are not in the nature of human beings, nor is such in the design plan of the DA setting, which is deliberately morally complicated. "Mages were right, templars were wrong, let's build a better world" is a narrative for children.

I'm using "ideal" in a relative sense. It doesn't have to be problem-free, just better than what came before. I think we're rather overdue for an uplifting event here anyway, and I believe entirely that it's possible.

Besides, showing the same conflict from a new perspective, with the position of dominance changing from one party to the other, is good progression. Your rapid antipathy for one side isn't something that the narrative has to cater to. The objective should be to show a complicated issue and difficult struggle from different perspectives in a nuanced way. This isn't some fetishized Tarantino revenge fantasy.

I know, and that's not my main goal, which is building a better world.

[Red Templar]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's a false dichotomy. It's not infringing on mage freedoms to have law enforcement officials who have templar powers but don't keep mages constantly imprisoned.

Is it not?

Again, humans don't work that way. It doesn't infringe on a person's freedom to own a firearm if a gun registry exists. See how well gun-libertarians of any nationality see it the same way.

The notion that a group of now-militant freedom fighters, radicalized through violence and embracing blood magic and demonology to "fight the good fight" "for the greater good" etc. will now, at the triumph of their libertarian rhetoric, be willing to surrender any portion of that hard-won liberty to some substitute for the organisation that repressed them is magnificently naive. Even if that sort of Anders-brand jihadi only comprises a small minority of the resistence (which is arguable), the most radical members of a revolution often hijack that revolution and when they do not, they often derail it. 20th century history is filled to the brim with examples, absent demons and invisible magic guns that a person can never put down.

Human nature suggests that the notion of  "mages" as a united front will collapse once their common enemy is gone, and what is left will be a fractuous congress unable to agree on what would be an appropriate amount of liberity to surrender for the benefit of the other side.

And even then, presuming that mages hold hands and submit to some new templar system, that screws over the common folk, who are no longer protected from potentially unstable people who could melt their faces of or turn into a demon and eat their whole family if they have a bad day. You can't put a templar or a mage-police on every corner; templars quarantined mages exactly for the reason of keeping the general population safe, and dispersing mages into the population negatives their preventative ability. At best this new-templar group could punish offenders, hunt down abominations, try to seal tears in the veil after the damage had already been done. Any system that relies on the common individual accepting that sort of risk, to which they as poor helpless mortals have no reasonable defense against, as an acceptable, unavoidable level of risk is no more acceptable than a status quo wherein you must simply accept that you could be gunned down by a guy with semi-auto in a public place.

Also, the mage rebellion isn't trying to tear down any governments or create wholly new ones, just trying to defeat the rabid army of murderous addicts that no longer reports to anyone whatsoever, trying to kill them all.

Mages are trying to tear down the only system with the organisation and ability to police them. Should they win that war, the only extant group with the ability to step into that vacuum will be the mages themselves. The notion that the militant libertarians will in victory surrender their libertity to secular nations or some third party isn't plausible. No, the master race will only be accountable to itself, and it will have to create a system and organisational structure out of thin air, while avoiding corruption and factionalism at the same time as appeasing the rapid libertarian who drove the conflict. Not a recipe for stable transition, that. Consult Africa.

I know, and that's not my main goal, which is building a better world.

A better world is not a better setting. We don't actually live in Thedas. Its problems are not ours, its characters are not our friends. Thedas exists as a vehicle to drive stories that enable RPGs. (edit) Which is my point here. A messy solution to a messy problem is objectively better for the narrative and thus the evolution of DA as a story-driven franchise with longevity, and overthrowing the status quo only to reevaluate its worth once it is gone is the best place for the narrative to go without sacrificing either grit or thematic integrity.

Modifié par Red Templar, 20 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
That's a false dichotomy. It's not infringing on mage freedoms to have law enforcement officials who have templar powers but don't keep mages constantly imprisoned. Protecting mages from demons may require more stringent efforts, but in that case the motive and mentality are completely different from what we have as of now. Also, the mage rebellion isn't trying to tear down any governments or create wholly new ones, just trying to defeat the rabid army of murderous addict.

I'm not sure a secular Circle system is better, or that it could even be secular. For one, who are your recruits going to be as templars? Most likely devout Andrastians. And then let's take people like Karras or Alrik. They're just sacks of crap as people, who get off on being abusers. 

More importantly, I don't think subject mages to the authority of the Princes in Antiva or to the Empress in Orlais would actually lead to better outcomes. Assuming mages don't actually rise to positions of power, all that does is give rulers nature-shaping vassals. If you think about someone like the Grand Duke in Orlais, who has the ambition to acquire the throne, what's to stop him from training mages in blood magic and attempting to mind control his rivals? 

Mage freedom is pretty zero sum. IMO, the real hope is to carve out an alternative to Tevinter that isn't based on slavery and exploitation. It won't be a better life for everyone, but it will be a better life for the mages, and that's what the rebellion is about in the end. 

Modifié par In Exile, 20 mai 2013 - 05:34 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Red Templar: The established factions of mages seems to have been utterly thrown out for the sake of this stupid conflict.

The Isolationists, Loyalists and Lucrosians should have been dead set against this conflict. And - while they're likely MUCH smaller numbers, they should not be siding with the radicals at all.

That the Aequatarians joined the radicals is largely insane to me - and wholly suicidal. Being the largest faction - reportedly with the most Senior Enchanters - this faction should have publicly and loudly crushed the Libertarians when they rose up.

That the mages aren't pro-active in policing themselves and showing their good faith is simply a failure of storytelling (we cannot blame fictional characters for their master's malpractice).

I have to believe that the writers purposefully chose the stupidest possible course for the mages simply to continue providing conflict on Thedas.

Using your example of places like Africa - the actions of these mages will resonate with the populations of Thedas for decades, if not centuries - not unlike the patchwork of cultural and religious conflict throughout that continent (most places really).

It would seem to me the new Thedas will be filled with a crippled mage community with no central learning - the return of "witches" as mages try to figure out magic on their own (and turn to demons for their education). Roving bands of witch hating lynch mobs - suspicious peasants - demon infested areas where the Veil has been torn - and cults of mages banding together in secret.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 mai 2013 - 05:43 .