348 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Templar]

Xilizhra wrote...

But the point is that we've never seen any mage be possessed who was not screwing with demonology or in a place tainted by those who had, and hence have no evidence for it. And there's nothing to suggest that, like Connor, Meredith's sister wasn't dabbling in demonology without understanding the implications (coincidentally, while hiding in fear of the Circle because of how terrible it is, another mark against the templars' supposed effectiveness).

I'm not going to be convinced that possession can only happen in hellmouths and veil teirs without a source.

And the ability of mages to mess around with demonology and corrupt other mages in the process, as well as a novice child being able to amateurishly bungle into bringing an apocolyptic crisis on entire fortress town, are arguments for the templar system. These things would not somehow become easier to track, manage, prevent and repair with mages dispersed among the gen-pop.

This is funny, because all of the threats here involving mages of such character, at least from Andrastian society, have happened because of the templars. Connor was hidden because of fear of the templars, Tarohne was striking out against the templars, Decimus was intensely paranoid about templar attacks and lashed out, Huon was brutalized and driven mad by the templars, Evelina was possessed while fleeing the templars...

Your argument here categorically fails because of your omission of Quentin (also because Connor absolutely does not prove your point, but let's focus on Quentin). He is the model psycopath mage, and was driven to his crimes by grief over the death of his wife, not by alleged templar brutality. Which leads us to how you haven't thought this argument through. If templar misconduct can inspire these things, why assume that it would stop once templars are gone? In the tower, mages live relatively sheltered lives, not having to worry about food or clothing or a warm place to sleep. Average peasants don't have such comfort. Life for the average peasant sucks. Even for the average middle class real world person, life is stressful and often full of the grief that created Quintin and the fear present in those you mentioned. If you claim templars are all at fault for terrorizing these poor folks, does it not stand to reason that if others terrorized them the same might occur? Templars are not the only thing that can prey on mages. There are bandits, burglars, street thugs, rapists, pirates, slavers, darkspawn, beasties, natural disasters, taxes, tariffs, spousal problems, infidelity, plague, disease, famine, scary spiders, war, landlords, feudal lords, dead puppies and kitties in a sad, miserable world where people have real problems greater than being forced to do the responsible thing and live a monastic lifestyle in a warm tower with regular meals. If the horrors of the system are such that it can drives mages to madness, and if grief was enough to drive Quentin to the same, it stands to reason that any of the many, many problems that people have to deal with on a daily basis and which can have profound emotional impact on a human being will do the same thing.

Modifié par Red Templar, 21 mai 2013 - 11:19 .

[Bleachrude]

I would point out that it's not just demons you have to watch out for...regular magic is dangerous as well...

Remember, Wynne I think torched a building when she was young because some boy was teasing her...

[BlueMagitek]

Bleachrude wrote...

I would point out that it's not just demons you have to watch out for...regular magic is dangerous as well...

Remember, Wynne I think torched a building when she was young because some boy was teasing her...

Actually she accidently set what sounded like a *bully's head on fire.


*Or annoying older kid, I really don't remember.

[The Hierophant]

Red Templar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But the point is that we've never seen any mage be possessed who was not screwing with demonology or in a place tainted by those who had, and hence have no evidence for it. And there's nothing to suggest that, like Connor, Meredith's sister wasn't dabbling in demonology without understanding the implications (coincidentally, while hiding in fear of the Circle because of how terrible it is, another mark against the templars' supposed effectiveness).

I'm not going to be convinced that possession can only happen in hellmouths and veil teirs without a source.

And the ability of mages to mess around with demonology and corrupt other mages in the process, as well as a novice child being able to amateurishly bungle into bringing an apocolyptic crisis on entire fortress town, are arguments for the templar system. These things would not somehow become easier to track, manage, prevent and repair with mages dispersed among the gen-pop.

This is funny, because all of the threats here involving mages of such character, at least from Andrastian society, have happened because of the templars. Connor was hidden because of fear of the templars, Tarohne was striking out against the templars, Decimus was intensely paranoid about templar attacks and lashed out, Huon was brutalized and driven mad by the templars, Evelina was possessed while fleeing the templars...

Your argument here categorically fails because of your omission of Quentin (also because Connor absolutely does not prove your point, but let's focus on Quentin). He is the model psycopath mage, and was driven to his crimes by grief over the death of his wife, not by alleged templar brutality. Which leads us to how you haven't thought this argument through. If templar misconduct can inspire these things, why assume that it would stop once templars are gone? In the tower, mages live relatively sheltered lives, not having to worry about food or clothing or a warm place to sleep. Average peasants don't have such comfort. Life for the average peasant sucks. Even for the average middle class real world person, life is stressful and often full of the grief that created Quintin and the fear present in those you mentioned. If you claim templars are all at fault for terrorizing these poor folks, does it not stand to reason that if others terrorized them the same might occur? Templars are not the only thing that can prey on mages. There are bandits, burglars, street thugs, rapists, pirates, slavers, darkspawn, beasties, natural disasters, taxes, tariffs, spousal problems, infidelity, plague, disease, famine, scary spiders, war, landlords, feudal lords, dead puppies and kitties in a sad, miserable world where people have real problems greater than being forced to do the responsible thing and live a monastic lifestyle in a warm tower with regular meals. If the horrors of the system are such that it can drives mages to madness, and if grief was enough to drive Quentin to the same, it stands to reason that any of the many, many problems that people have to deal with on a daily basis and which can have profound emotional impact on a human being will do the same thing.

Don't forget about power hungry Lady Harimann, a noble who lived a privileged life without fear of Templars as none of her ancestors were mages.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 mai 2013 - 11:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you're misreading the sequence of events there. The Chantry wasn't locked, so far as I know, so I don't know if it really counts as a break-in. Moreover, he wanted to avoid direct conflict with the templars; they'd set up a trap for him and tried to kill him first.

LOL, you're joking?

And by "avoid direct conflict," can we agree you mean "willingly break the law and hope not to get caught"? 

Anders came to Kirkwall to rescue Karl, who wrote him letters about the horros of the Circle of Kirkwall. Karl was his first love, and he was hoping to rescue him. I don't get the impression that Anders was looking to get into a conflict with the templars, but rather rescue Karl. Whether or not the Kirkwall Chantry was locked, his focus was on helping a person he loved at one point in his life.

Clearly, Anders asking Hawke to accompany him showed that he prepared for the worst, but I doubt he would care either way if it meant that Karl was safe. He was heartbroken to see what had happened to Karl - a mage made tranquil illegally by the monster Alrik.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you're misreading the sequence of events there. The Chantry wasn't locked, so far as I know, so I don't know if it really counts as a break-in. Moreover, he wanted to avoid direct conflict with the templars; they'd set up a trap for him and tried to kill him first.

LOL, you're joking?

And by "avoid direct conflict," can we agree you mean "willingly break the law and hope not to get caught"? 

Anders came to Kirkwall to rescue Karl, who wrote him letters about the horros of the Circle of Kirkwall. Karl was his first love, and he was hoping to rescue him. I don't get the impression that Anders was looking to get into a conflict with the templars, but rather rescue Karl. Whether or not the Kirkwall Chantry was locked, his focus was on helping a person he loved at one point in his life.

Clearly, Anders asking Hawke to accompany him showed that he prepared for the worst, but I doubt he would care either way if it meant that Karl was safe. He was heartbroken to see what had happened to Karl - a mage made tranquil illegally by the monster Alrik.

So children you see, as long as you dfo it for love (and FREEDOM!), then it is okay to break every single law in the book, cut any and all ties and previous agreements, and just follow your heart. Love and freedom makes it a crime, not to commit the crime!

[Dave of Canada]

I'm starting to feel like I picked up the wrong game and missed the Dragon Age anime game where love, friendship and freedom can triumph over adversity.

[Bleachrude]

The one thing mentioned earlier and which I totally agree with is what would happen if the Chantry was no longer in charge.

Mages would come under the supervision of the various banns and lords and if you think they won't want to use mages, that's somewhat naive.

Especially Ferelden where apparently small scale battles between banns is a common occurence that in-universe it is noted that other nations are surprised ferelden even exists as a single country.

[DPSSOC]

Red Templar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But the point is that we've never seen any mage be possessed who was not screwing with demonology or in a place tainted by those who had, and hence have no evidence for it. And there's nothing to suggest that, like Connor, Meredith's sister wasn't dabbling in demonology without understanding the implications (coincidentally, while hiding in fear of the Circle because of how terrible it is, another mark against the templars' supposed effectiveness).

I'm not going to be convinced that possession can only happen in hellmouths and veil teirs without a source.

Possession can happen every time a mage goes to sleep.  The Fade isn't called the Realm of Dreams for no reason, it's mentioned explicitly at least once that whenever people sleep and dream their soul passes through the Veil and enters the Fade.  Mages are unique in that they stand out more than normal humans or elves and demons are more drawn to them (like moths to flame).  So unless mages have a way to keep themselves from dreaming (do they?) every time they go to sleep there is a chance a demon will find them and either trick or overpower them.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
So in effect you support murderers, terrorists and degenerates.

You're thinking of the Templars, I support the mages.

If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

You've vindicated the entire war of the Templars, with everything you've just said and the Mage's subsequent extermination.

I'm beginning to suspect this is not the only area of your life in which you support gross bigotry and violent oppression.

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure I would class Anders' character arc as a triumph of love and friendship.

We'll see a forc- fade ghost Anders kissing Karl and then fading away after acknowledging the mages won.

If you sided with the Templar, Anders will push you into a lava pit and Karl with hug him and they'll sigh happily as they see your remains boil.

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

If the Templar are forced to be murderers, rapists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a depraved, unmonitored group of people that abused them for thousands of years!

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Mages are superior to humans, they're just like the x-men and the x-men are super heroes that save people and it never goes wrong ever! everyone loves the x-men! they would never do evil things!

The X-men don't do "evil" things, but they're an extremely poor analogue for the mage situation.

The mutants of the X-Men live within the Marvel Universe, which is populated by many, many exceptional, superpowered individuals who are not mutants. There are individuals whose power comes from magic, like Doctor Strange. There are individuals who possess exceptional technology that nobody else can create, like Iron Man or Deadpool. There are individuals who got their powers through an experiment, like Captain America, or by accident, like the Fantastic Four or The Hulk. Some individuals, like Hawkeye or Black Widow, simply possess unique natural talents and special training, but they are no less dangerous for that.

With the exception of Spiderman and The Hulk, the vast majority of non-mutant supeheroes are welcomed into society without issue. And even then, Spiderman doesn't face anything like the amount of institutionalised bigotry that the X-Men must cope with every day. Iron Man, Captain America, The Fantastic Four, She-Hulk and many other superheroes in the Marvel Universe are celebrities, much adored by their non-superpowered public.

The bigotry directed at 'mutants' is totally unjustified and completely hypocritical. Mutants are not more dangerous than Iron Man, Captain America, The Fantastic Four or She-Hulk, and in fact most of them are significantly less dangerous than any of these individuals. The hatred directed against the X-Men is based purely on their arbitrary status as "mutants", and has little to do with any potential threat they might present. And yes it is completely arbitrary, Captain America was mutated by an experiment, while the Fantastic Four were mutated by exposure to a space particle, and yet they are not considered to fall under the 'mutant' category.

This isn't even accounting for the fact that the government possesses and regularly deploys giant, mutant-hunting robots, enormous flying aircraft carriers and all sorts of crazy-ass technology that renders any 'danger' that mutants might present to be completely moot.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

I'm always interested when this statement comes up because I'm curious as to where the point lies that people won't use it.  Not saying we've hit that point but I'm curious to find out where it is; at what point does the violent drunk's bad childhood no longer excuse his actions.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
If the Templar are forced to be murderers, rapists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a depraved, unmonitored group of people that abused them for thousands of years!

That is not a morally equivalent position. The "abuse" you speak of happened before the Templar Order was even formed, and was put at an end thousands of years ago. The mages are dealing with abuse right ****ing now.

Templars are in no position to complain.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
So in effect you support murderers, terrorists and degenerates.

You're thinking of the Templars, I support the mages.

If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

You've vindicated the entire war of the Templars, with everything you've just said and the Mage's subsequent extermination.

I'm beginning to suspect this is not the only area of your life in which you support gross bigotry and violent oppression.

Nope, mage is quite correct, murderers, terrorists and degenerates is accurate.

So the Templars were brought in to being by the uncontrolled mage dominance and corruption thousands of years ago, but it's the Templar's fault because the Mages' inability to control themeslves and not abuse their power has created the current system. 

I'm beginning to think rank stupidity and obtuse intellectually barren points are par for the course in your responses when the holes in your logic are exposed.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

I'm always interested when this statement comes up because I'm curious as to where the point lies that people won't use it.  Not saying we've hit that point but I'm curious to find out where it is; at what point does the violent drunk's bad childhood no longer excuse his actions.

Again, not an equivalent comparison. The violent drunk's "bad childhood" is over, there is no excuse for any abusive behaviour at this point.

The abuse of the mages is yet ongoing. When it is over, the mages must stop. And if they won't stop, they must be made to. But if the mages do overstep into "abuse" territory, that is not an excuse for the Templars to reinstate the abusive system of the Circle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

If the Templar are forced to be murderers, rapists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a depraved, unmonitored group of people that abused them for thousands of years!

Well, these are both true to some extent; Meredith suffered something like this, Cullen suffered something much like this, Lambert suffered essentially exactly this, and there are certainly mages who snapped under the Templars' abuse. On the other hand, what excuse does Caladrius have? Ser Karras? For that matter, do we know that Tarohne was ever part of a Circle?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 mai 2013 - 03:45 .

[billy the squid]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

I'm always interested when this statement comes up because I'm curious as to where the point lies that people won't use it.  Not saying we've hit that point but I'm curious to find out where it is; at what point does the violent drunk's bad childhood no longer excuse his actions.

Nope, we're at that point. 

In essence "you can't blame the mages for anything they do, because they were forced to, but that hasn't tainted our moral supperiority and if you don't agree you're a bigot." has been reached.

In effect, when your points have been pulled apart and holes pointed out in the logic, call people bigots and deny everything.

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 mai 2013 - 03:46 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
So the Templars were brought in to being by the uncontrolled mage dominance and corruption thousands of years ago,

By the time the Templars came into being, the "mage dominance" no longer existed anywhere but in Tevinter. The mages were living peacefully in mundane society.

but it's the Templar's fault because the Mages' inability to control themeslves and not abuse their power has created the current system.

It's the fault of both the Chantry and the Templars for creating an inherently abusive system when they didn't have to. The Chantry possesses vast wealth and has had the better art of a millenium to create a better infrastructure than the one that exists currently, so there is no excuse for allowing the current, clearly terrible system, to continue.

I'm beginning to think rank stupidity and obtuse intellectually barren points are par for the course in your responses when the holes in your logic are exposed.

You wouldn't know logic if it hit you, so.

[Dave of Canada]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, these are both true to some extent; Meredith suffered something like this, Cullen suffered something much like this, and there are certainly mages who snapped under the Templars abuse. On the other hand, what excuse does Caladrius have? Ser Karras? For that matter, do we know that Tarohne was ever part of a Circle?

It was mostly just teasing the fact of how malleable the argument is rather than making any legitimate point, I've just grown tired of everyone white-washing mages and demonizing Templar rather than accepting both have legitimate gripes against the other.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
In effect, when your points have been pulled apart and holes pointed out in the logic,

And when do you imagine this happened?

call people bigots

Only a problem if they're not bigots.

and deny everything.

Like you deny the myriad and inherent abuses of the Templars and the Chantry?

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages are murderers, terrorists and degenerates, it's because they were driven to it by a bigoted, militarised religion that abused them for thousands of years.

I'm always interested when this statement comes up because I'm curious as to where the point lies that people won't use it.  Not saying we've hit that point but I'm curious to find out where it is; at what point does the violent drunk's bad childhood no longer excuse his actions.

Again, not an equivalent comparison. The violent drunk's "bad childhood" is over, there is no excuse for any abusive behaviour at this point.

The abuse of the mages is yet ongoing. When it is over, the mages must stop. And if they won't stop, they must be made to. But if the mages do overstep into "abuse" territory, that is not an excuse for the Templars to reinstate the abusive system of the Circle.

As of the events of Asunder the mages abuse is over too, they no longer have any grounds to complain and now have to take full responsibility for their actions (IMO).  However others might give more slack than I do (I don't give anybody any) so some might hold off until the end of the war, or a few years/decades/centuries later.  Like I said it'll be interesting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

but it's the Templar's fault because the Mages' inability to control themeslves and not abuse their power has created the current system.

It's the fault of both the Chantry and the Templars for creating an inherently abusive system when they didn't have to. The Chantry possesses vast wealth and has had the better art of a millenium to create a better infrastructure than the one that exists currently, so there is no excuse for allowing the current, clearly terrible system, to continue.

You say that like you're sure they can think of one. There's at least one Grand Cleric who admits the injustice of the system, but says that she allows it to continue because she can't think of a less unjust one to replace it with.

[Dave of Canada]

Plaintiff wrote...
And when do you imagine this happened?

When you started posting fallacies.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 mai 2013 - 03:52 .