103 réponses à ce sujet

[essarr71]

Well, since you read the wiki, I'm confident you know what's what.

[Erez Kristal]

essarr71 wrote...

Well, since you read the wiki, I'm confident you know what's what.

I appreciate your input... but what is your opinion and why?

[essarr71]

erezike wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Well, since you read the wiki, I'm confident you know what's what.

I appreciate your input... but what is your opinion and why?

That its all BS. 

Everyone in the series acts on their own impulses and priorities. The only one who gets results is the player. This isnt a bad thing. But to say Anderson was evil because he didnt get anything done is laughable. Seriously. 

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

 IF CERBERUS DIDN'T EXIST MASS EFFECT 2 WOULDN'T EXIST.SMART THREAD

[Erez Kristal]

essarr71 wrote...


That its all BS. 

Everyone in the series acts on their own impulses and priorities. The only one who gets results is the player. This isnt a bad thing. But to say Anderson was evil because he didnt get anything done is laughable. Seriously. 

The player is hardly the only one who gets results. liara is a very important character in understand the past cycles and the reapers, udina is a good at politics and manges to get shepard into the spectres and also keep the council off shepard back despite shepard talks on dreams and going on a murder spree before hes a spectre on the citadel.
Turians managed to make the thanix cannons. vital in victory against the reapers.
Tali- evidence against saren.
Miranda- lazuras project.
Tim - Gave shepard the support he needed in his missions spree in me2. without a strong back shepard couldnt have done what did.
Brookes- Scouted suitable talents for shepard sucide missions.
Firewalker - found important prothean artifacts
Overlord- managed to control the geth to a degree...
Anderson - recommended shepard to the spectres and helped him reclaim the normandy to get saren.


I claim anderson act as a villian in Retribution because he undermines the galactic readiness for the reapers arrival in order to sedate his own personal ambitions. even the illusive man never stoop that lowt. the illusvie man despite his questionable methods always put humanity first. and by doing that saved more lives than anyone else.

Saren and reapers also meant well. they wanted a better life for everyone. but they stood in our way and so they became villians. anderson may seem like your friend but that only make things worse. He only sees the world through a barrel of a gun.

Modifié par erezike, 20 mai 2013 - 02:52 .

[Erez Kristal]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

 IF CERBERUS DIDN'T EXIST MASS EFFECT 2 WOULDN'T EXIST.SMART THREAD

sarcasm isnt helpful for debates. nor will it make you look smarter. what is your full take on this topic?

Modifié par erezike, 20 mai 2013 - 02:23 .

[essarr71]

erezike wrote...

The player is hardly the only one who gets results. liara is a very important character in understand the past cycles and the reapers, udina is a good at politics and manges to get shepard into the spectres and also keep the council off shepard back despite shepard talks on dreams and going on a murder spree before hes a spectre on the citadel.

Funny.  I remember Liara having never heard of the Reapers when you saved her in ME1.  I also don't recall her giving me any useful information regarding how to beat them.  She is a Prothean expert.. a fact that isn't really a big deal since Shep has the cipher. 

And Udina manages to get Shep into the Spectres?  Did we play a different game?  I seem to remember him NOT being able to get that done and spending a few hours running around the citadel without his help to prove Shep's case.  Yes.. he was very helpful when he told Shep not to screw up afterwards.  The entire game I pretty much thought, "hey, can't let that Udina down after all he's done for Shep."

Turians managed to make the thanix cannons. vital in victory against the reapers.

Vital?  I don't remember the Crucible firing a thanix cannon.  And I imagine burning Palavin was all part of the Turian thanix cannon victories.  How'd they get that technology?  Oh right.. Sovy's corpse.  The Citadel Defense fleet sure put the screws to him.

Tali- evidence against saren.

Was a HUGE help.  Good thing Shep got to her before she got herself killed.  Nice to know she can handle her own affairs and not get exiled without.. nevermind.  Shep pretty much does everything for her there, too.

Miranda- lazuras project.

Good thing she could handle yelling at Wilson without Shep.  Gotta admit, when Shep doesn't tell her about Kai Lang and she goes to take care of her father on her own, she really comes out looking like the strong, capable self the game says she is.

Tim - Gave shepard the support he needed in his missions spree in me2. without a strong back shepard couldnt have done what did.

And what did TIM ever accomplish without Shepard?  So many of Cerb's endevours provided such helpful results.  With his track record, I'm surprised he even needed Shep to get anything done.

Brookes- Scouted suitable talents for shepard sucide missions.

She was damn good at finding dossiers, thats for sure.  Couldn't handle getting the actually people, sure, but I mean.. google in the future must be a ****.  I mean, there's got to be 1 million Samaras in the galaxy.  Honestly, tho.. she's even worse than the rest.  She couldn't even win WITH Shep's help.. both the good Shep AND the bad Shep.  Pathetic.

Firewalker - found important prothean artifacts

Not really.  That ancient coffee table decoration would have been lost without Shep getting it.  The team died, remember?

Overlord- managed to control the geth to a degree...

Do you even know what I'm trying to establish here?  Shep is the one that STOPS other peoples problems.. other people don't solve his.  Overlord would have been galactically catastrophic without Shep's intervention.

I claim anderson act as a villian in Retribution because he undermines the galactic readiness for the reapers arrival in order to sedate his own personal ambitions. even the illusive man never stoop that lowt. the illusvie man despite his questionable methods always put humanity first. and by doing that saved more lives than anyone else.

Saren and reapers also meant well. they wanted a better life for everyone. but they stood in our way and so they became villians. anderson may seem like your friend but that only make things worse. He only sees the world through a barrel of a gun.

Let's examine these two a bit, then, because both have similar roles regarding Shep.  They both hand Shep a Normandy, that's for sure.  Anderson risks court marshal or death to help Shep save the galaxy.. TIM sets Shep up into a Collector trap while he hides behind his chair.  Anderson stays behind to help Earth's resistence, while TIM goes out of his way to cause trouble for it.  By the climax, he's giving the Reapers information.. while Anderson is charging a Reaper in a desperate last stand.  Very evil of Anderson to do all that.

This thread is silly.  Your premise is naive.  I've wasted enough time on this nonsense, as is. 

Modifié par essarr71, 20 mai 2013 - 03:48 .

[AlexMBrennan]

You again fail to establish that "X happened" implies "X is the only possible way things could have happened". Prove that and you might have an argument.

You also completely fail to consider the possibility that Cerberus removal from history might have consequences that are not convenient for your views - for example, the quarians fleet not getting attacked in Ascension might result in a different strike team being sent to Haestrum. Or Kahoku, if he had lived, might have influenced defense projects. Etc.

This is known as "stations of canon" and makes for really contrived (I.e. horrible) AU fanficrion. For example:

Virmire survivor and samantha traynor die on horizon

The VS is only dispatched to Horizon to investigate Cerberus; thus the only reason for her to be present in your AU is to die as a result of Cerberus not existing. It's contrived bovine excrement.

[KaiserShep]

If Cerberus didn't exist, Admiral Kohoku would've saved everyone from the reapers. Good night, sweet prince.

[Cainhurst Crow]

In my game, cerberus set me up to be blown apart by the collectors in the first place by leaking my location to them. Their plan had been for me and my crew to take the collectors and beat them, basically sending the collectors in a trap, and it backfired, as most cerberus plans do.

So than they had to mad dash and collect my remains in order to revive me, better than before, to fix the mistake they made in the first place.

[andy6915]

erezike wrote...And Udina manages to get Shep into the Spectres?  Did we play a different game?  I seem to remember him NOT being able to get that done and spending a few hours running around the citadel without his help to prove Shep's case.  Yes.. he was very helpful when he told Shep not to screw up afterwards.  The entire game I pretty much thought, "hey, can't let that Udina down after all he's done for Shep."

To back up your point here, Nihlus had more to do with that then Udina did.



"That's why I put your name forward as a candidate for the spectres."

"Why would a Turian want a human in the spectres?"

"Not all Turians resent humanity. Some of us see the potential of your species. We see what you have to offer to the rest of the galaxy... And to the spectres. We are an elite group. It's rare to find individuals with the skills we seek. I don't care that you're human, Shepard. I only care that you can do the job."

Nihlus personally put Shepard's name forward as a spectre candidate. He tells you this himself if you ask him in ME1. He saw your skill, and put a good word in for you with the Council. They approved, and told him to watch Shepard to be certain, which is why he was to spend several missions with you. You was one single step away from becoming a spectre, based solely on your abilities and past badass things Shepard did.

Udina had nothing to do with Shepard's spectre promotion, Nihlus was the one who did that.

Modifié par andy69156915, 20 mai 2013 - 05:41 .

[AlexMBrennan]

... then why do we hear Anderson, Hacket and Udina discussing Shepard's candidacy and Udina "making the call"?

I also don't recall her giving me any useful information regarding how to beat them

I think you'll find that Shepard is not unable to identify the location of the conduit without her help.

Overlord would have been galactically catastrophic without Shep's intervention.

It stands to reason that Cerberus would have dispatched someone (e.g. that army TIM pulls out of his rear between ME2 and ME3) if Shepard hadn't been available.

[KaiserShep]

But his army was made of largely cookie cutter shock troops, made out of indoctrinated quasi-husk people.

[twisty77]

Tl; dr because of bad formatting and grammar. Although I believe the gist of it is that the galaxy is better off because of Cerberus, yes?

[PsyrenY]

ginner dave wrote...

Entirely subjective. You could argue that since cerberus didn't exist, Shep didn't encounter them in ME1, and while still destroying Sovy he took a slightly different path where he didn't get pancaked due to the Collectors. Isn't roleplaying fun?

Except you get pancaked whether you meet Cerberus in ME1 or not, therefore this bit of roleplaying fails.

@ OP: I agree that some good has come from Cerberus' actions, just as some good has come from the Reapers. Because again, complex villains do good things. They are not Captain Planet style trying to pollute the beaches to kill all the baby seals for lulz.

[essarr71]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

... then why do we hear Anderson, Hacket and Udina discussing Shepard's candidacy and Udina "making the call"?

I also don't recall her giving me any useful information regarding how to beat them

I think you'll find that Shepard is not unable to identify the location of the conduit without her help.

Overlord would have been galactically catastrophic without Shep's intervention.

It stands to reason that Cerberus would have dispatched someone (e.g. that army TIM pulls out of his rear between ME2 and ME3) if Shepard hadn't been available.

Again: when the time comes, does Udina accomplish anything?  Three people are involved with "making a call".. when it comes to getting in Udina is shot down by the council.  It's the player's actions, not an npc, that the achievement is ultimately reached.

Does Overlord even happen if you don't participate (like Arrival)?  My point stands, regardless.  OP points out how Overlord "almost" does this amazing thing.  It didn't do anything, as "almost" as it may be.. and only caused problems.  It'd be like being proud about how you almost won the lottery because you knew where to go to buy a ticket.  

And sure, Ilos.. three games, two where she's the biggest information broken in the galaxy.. and she gives us Ilos.  But hey, lets be generous and add Samara and Thane to the list.. granted, all she manages to do there is point you in a direction.. they accomplish nothing on their own.  

As i said, this isn't a bad thing.  It's a game.  It should revolve around you.  I bring this stuff up only because OP seemed to think being able to accomplish nothing is a negative.. where Shep literally doesn't run into anyone who isn't pretty useless without them... even just by evesdropping.  Playing the "it would have happened anyway" is a cop-out.  It doesn't happen anyway.. Shep does it.

[BouncyFrag]

The writers would have written something else.

[AlexMBrennan]

Playing the "it would have happened anyway" is a cop-out. It doesn't happen anyway.. Shep does it.

It's realistic - the hero is the hero because he does awesome stuff and not because he is the only one who could possibly have done something.

[essarr71]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Playing the "it would have happened anyway" is a cop-out. It doesn't happen anyway.. Shep does it.

It's realistic - the hero is the hero because he does awesome stuff and not because he is the only one who could possibly have done something.

Thats a contradiction.. the hero is the hero because he does awesome stuff anyone else could do?

Seriously?

Mass Effect 4:  Eh.. Someone else can handle it; let's go to the mall, instead.  

Sounds awesome indeed.

[Greggorio]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

... then why do we hear Anderson, Hacket and Udina discussing Shepard's candidacy and Udina "making the call"?

Because Anderson, Hacket, and Udina are simply sending a candidate to the council for their consideration.  That  does not make it a slam dunk that Shep makes Spectre.  Look at what happened between Saren and Anderson when Anderson was a candidate.  Saren's report the the Council of the refinery incident basically killed Andersons chances. 

[AlexMBrennan]

Seriously, what is it with BSN members not understanding logical negation?

Thats a contradiction.. the hero is the hero because he does awesome stuff anyone else could do?

If Shepard is not the only one able to accomplish something then that implies that there is at least one other person who could have done the same. It does not imply that anyone could have done it.

[essarr71]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Seriously, what is it with BSN members not understanding logical negation?

Thats a contradiction.. the hero is the hero because he does awesome stuff anyone else could do?

If Shepard is not the only one able to accomplish something then that implies that there is at least one other person who could have done the same. It does not imply that anyone could have done it.

And yet no individual stepped up to perform.. so I fail to see what point you're trying to make here.  It doesn't matter how many could do what Shep does, or how you want to plot it out on a truth table.  We're talking about a narrative, and an interactive one at that.  At no point does someone say: "Sit this one out, Shep.  We got other people to handle it."  Shep IS the hero.  Claiming Bob in engineering could do it is irrelevent.  He didn't do it, and there isn't a single instance in the game where Shep didn't have a hand in how things turn out.. even in something as detatched as Earth's resistence.

[Ryuzetsu]

Sorry OP, I do believe you are talking out of your ass.

[Erez Kristal]

If shepard doesnt go to the arrival project a group of marines manages to save the day.. thus heroes. Shepard is good but he isnt godlike. he is just human or cyborg if you will. without the help of others he wouldnt be able to do all the amazing feats he managed to acomplish. now i understand why you think he can do all of those things alone. so i offer you this. try playing the entire game alone. without any upgrades(who needs tech anyway?) without buying new equipment(who needs funding?) and beat it without dying. goodluck. saying shepard is the only one who does good work in mass effect is nonesense. is he a scientist, is he a talents scout? is he an a top class non combatant engineer? is he good at raising funds? is he a great tactican? is he a good pilot? the only thing we know shepard is good at is his own combat skills and lucky he is also very lucky, most of the time. just thing what would have happened if his enemies would have called air support more often...

And despite all of shepard achievements what you are saying here only proves my case further. cerberus brought shepard back better than before. something that no one else could have done. or was willing to even try.

Hell the alliance rathered have the entire issue forgotten. they didnt even bother to look for his corpse. they used shepard and then threw him away, go talk with ken, gabby, chakwas, joker and jacob in the m2 you will learn the truth you are so eager to ignore.

Ashley went to horizion to ready for the defence of the colony for another mysterious attack which the alliance thought cerberus was behind. they were so blind at that point about the collectors which even futher shows their incomptence. she would have died without cerberus, when serving for the incompetence alliance everyone died at the end. just look at the facts, shepard serves cerberus he never die, shepard serves the alliance he dies twice!

Modifié par erezike, 21 mai 2013 - 08:01 .

[TheProtheans]

erezike wrote...

If cerberus never existed...
Collectors Get Shepard Body.
Miranda and jacob woulndnt have prevented bio warfare that the batarians wanted to unleash on the citadel. 
Normandy Sr-2 isnt rebuilt.
Edi- isnt created.
Garrus die in omega.
Aria-Overrun by eclipse, bloodpack and blue suns.
Zhaeed - Retire somewhere sunny.
Mordin - May suffocate to death in his clinic or killed by Bloodpack.
Grunt - In the tank.
Jack- living happily with her family
Alliance biotics much weaker.
Tali dies on halestorm
Legion? Heretics rewrite geth
No m-920 cain or arc projector.
Only high end reaper tech available is thanix cannons.
Virmire survivor and samantha traynor die on horizon.
Clan urdnot is weaker due clan wyrloc uprising with promises for a cure
(for those who really believe shepard stopped a batarian war with going to jail)  alliance - batarian war.
Quarrian attack geth and get obliterated. hereticcs fight with the reapers against the everyone else.

Genophage cure isnt spread to all krogan, Krogan arent united and do not help the turians.
Turians Get hammered by the reapers and may or may not be able to rescue one of their primearchs(without the normandy they tried and failed) 

Without shepard to unite them the galaxy is too spread out, not enough forces. the crucible doesnt have the right armada that will help it to deliver itself to earth. the galaxy gets obliterated


Knowing all this anderson turns to the turians to fight cerberus prior to mass effect 3
Here is the story of anderson villiany http://masseffect.wi...ct:_Retribution

Thoughts?

You're messing with the time stream.
The future would have been different if Cerberus never existed, Shepard would have a different future.