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[Massa FX]

The Harvest would have occurred with or without Cerberus. So... what's the point of this discussion? Does any of this matter in the main story arc? Reapers are the villains of ME. Not Anderson.

What's up with you OP? You dont like Anderson. We get it. Gawd. Please no more threads on this.

/end

[Erez Kristal]

Massa FX wrote...

The Harvest would have occurred with or without Cerberus. So... what's the point of this discussion? Does any of this matter in the main story arc? Reapers are the villains of ME. Not Anderson.

What's up with you OP? You dont like Anderson. We get it. Gawd. Please no more threads on this.

/end

You are more than welcome to give your opinion but like it was already said before if you dont want to, dont post.

The harvest would have been attempted either way. the question and hand is if the galaxy would have been able to stop it without cerberus.

Protheans, yes the time stream would have been different but do you see any resulotion where it would be for a better end without cerberus? the alliance was having problems protecting itself against batarians terrorist and other hazards what do you honestly think would have happened without cerberus?

Sometimes you need a bad guy to do the nasty things no one else is willing to do in order to save the day. do you all believe they could raise shepard from the dead without all their 'failed experiments' on thorians, husks and geth...

[andy6915]

Face it, Erezike, not one person is agreeing with you or is going to agree with you. Stop fighting, the thread failed, have the courage to admit you're making a bad point and just give up on arguing this indefensible position you have.

[Erez Kristal]

andy69156915 wrote...

Face it, Erezike, not one person is agreeing with you or is going to agree with you. Stop fighting, the thread failed, have the courage to admit you're making a bad point and just give up on arguing this indefensible position you have.

I would be happy to hear a based argument for why i am wrong. until now most of what i have heard was: This again, CERBERUS IS EVILLLL. TRolzl, Anderson is a hero! he gave you a clean bed and his private collection of fornax!

Until i hear some alternatives to what you and others think would have happened if cerebrus didnt exist and reasonable debates instead of just trolling for trolling sake. i will keep my trolling strong and clear.

Andy will you elaborate what would have happened?
How do you think the galaxy would survive without cerberus?

Modifié par erezike, 21 mai 2013 - 10:21 .

[Indy_S]

If we're talking in-universe, which seems to be the case, the Reapers would have flown in and won. The Alpha Relay would still be destroyed so it would seem the galaxy would know about the Reapers ahead of time. Because the Shadow Broker is trying to bargain for his own safety, the Tractor is never discovered and the cycle faces the same slow annihilation that befell all the previous ones.

Out-of-universe, though, the writers would just have something else either fill their role or come up with slightly different scenarios so they can be executed without Cerberus.

As for Anderson, he is a protagonist. He acts without malice or nefarious intent nor does he make conscious decisions to oppose Shepard. He is not a villain. The fact that he becomes an obstacle in the path of Shepard does not make him a villain.

EDIT: I'm not sure what this is meant to be an argument for. That if the framework of the second and third parts of a story are removed, the whole direction of the story changes too? If that's what this is, I think you're right.

Modifié par Indy_S, 21 mai 2013 - 10:49 .

[Erez Kristal]

Indy_S wrote...

If we're talking in-universe, which seems to be the case, the Reapers would have flown in and won. The Alpha Relay would still be destroyed so it would seem the galaxy would know about the Reapers ahead of time. Because the Shadow Broker is trying to bargain for his own safety, the Tractor is never discovered and the cycle faces the same slow annihilation that befell all the previous ones.

Out-of-universe, though, the writers would just have something else either fill their role or come up with slightly different scenarios so they can be executed without Cerberus.

As for Anderson, he is a protagonist. He acts without malice or nefarious intent nor does he make conscious decisions to oppose Shepard. He is not a villain. The fact that he becomes an obstacle in the path of Shepard does not make him a villain.

Thanks for the input-
One of the definitions of a villian is" a story-initiating villainy, where the villain caused harm to the hero or his family" Since in some playthroughes shepard is part of cerberus you can say that anderson attack is on shepard family-cerberus him undermining cerberus undermines shepards efforts to save the galaxy against the reapers. making cerberus look worse on a galactic scale also doesnt do well for shepard name and public relations when later he is face in trail for his actions on the alpha relay. if you dont blow up the relay, anderson tells you this himself you are here because you worked for cerberus.  Anderson lack of ability to see the bigger picture makes him a villian.

[Nightwriter]

Yeah I don't understand the logic here.

Picture a building full of people that is on fire. What Cerberus essentially did in ME3 is start attacking firemen as the building is burning. And also cutting slashes in the hose line and other charming responsible things.

And you're saying... Idk. That these attackers are the good guys because a while ago they resurrected the lead fireman they are now attacking.

Or because they acted as components in the achievement of some desirable outcomes.

Which is weird.

Because many villains influence events in ways that are observably fortunate but which in no way redeem their dark or destructive intents.

I mean you could do this with lots of things.

"If Sauron didn't exist, the One Ring would never have been created and Bilbo could never have used it to escape the goblin tunnels, free the dwarves from the wood elves, save them from the giant spiders, and sneak into Smaug's lair to learn of the weakness in his armor. Something something this means Gandalf is the biggest villain since Saruman."

Not that Anderson is near as awesome as Gandalf.

I mean don't get me wrong, Anderson. I like you.

But come on. GANDALF.

[Indy_S]

erezike wrote...

Thanks for the input-
One of the definitions of a villian is" a story-initiating villainy, where the villain caused harm to the hero or his family" Since in some playthroughes shepard is part of cerberus you can say that anderson attack is on shepard family-cerberus him undermining cerberus undermines shepards efforts to save the galaxy against the reapers. making cerberus look worse on a galactic scale also doesnt do well for shepard name and public relations when later he is face in trail for his actions on the alpha relay. if you dont blow up the relay, anderson tells you this himself you are here because you worked for cerberus.  Anderson lack of ability to see the bigger picture makes him a villian.

You could equally say that Cerberus' actions are undermining the Alliance's authority. Having two allies oppose each other is not an act of villainy. When they go to the extent of opposing the hero, it still does not make them villains, merely obstacles. The Council are not villains when they stand between you and Saren, merely an obstacle.

Additionally, Anderson does not say it is because you worked for Cerberus. He says 'the **** you pulled' which is much more vague.

[Erez Kristal]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yeah I don't understand the logic here.

Picture a building full of people that is on fire. What Cerberus essentially did in ME3 is start attacking firemen as the building is burning. And also cutting slashes in the hose line and other charming responsible things.

And you're saying... Idk. That these attackers are the good guys because a while ago they resurrected the lead fireman they are now attacking.

Or because they acted as components in the achievement of some desirable outcomes.

Which is weird.

Because many villains influence events in ways that are observably fortunate but which in no way redeem their dark or destructive intents.

I mean you could do this with lots of things.

"If Sauron didn't exist, the One Ring would never have been created and Bilbo could never have used it to escape the goblin tunnels, free the dwarves from the wood elves, save them from the giant spiders, and sneak into Smaug's lair to learn of the weakness in his armor. Something something this means Gandalf is the biggest villain since Saruman."

Not that Anderson is near as awesome as Gandalf.

I mean don't get me wrong, Anderson. I like you.

But come on. GANDALF.

I never said they were good, i said that without their intended actions the galaxy would have been doomed and that anderson brought the reapers one step closer to victory.

After anderson attack on cerberus and shepard captivity the illusive man became more desperate in defeating the reapers and was willing whatever he thought will save humanity, attacking mars for the the data, well they wouldnt just give it to him and he was running out of time the reapers were already on earth. Surkesh, he believed curing the genophage would be harmful for humans on the long run just like the salarian leader believed(which is why she tipped the illusive man off the transaction). the coup - trying to take control of it for the good of humanity, either way the coup helped since it increased the commitment of the people in the citadel to the war effort. horizion - desperate times, what if the crucible didnt work how would you win the war then? attacking the alliance for resources - they the communication hub in order to use the signal that will enable control of the reapers.

Its only in the end in one last desperate act that the illusive man plants himself with a lot of reaper tech, fails to maintain control and tip off the reapers. until then all he does is for humanity this is why the reapers attack on horizion; if anderson didnt attack and capture shepard in the first place they might have been working together.

Cerberus was always about the bigger picture.

[Erez Kristal]

Indy_S wrote...

erezike wrote...

Thanks for the input-
One of the definitions of a villian is" a story-initiating villainy, where the villain caused harm to the hero or his family" Since in some playthroughes shepard is part of cerberus you can say that anderson attack is on shepard family-cerberus him undermining cerberus undermines shepards efforts to save the galaxy against the reapers. making cerberus look worse on a galactic scale also doesnt do well for shepard name and public relations when later he is face in trail for his actions on the alpha relay. if you dont blow up the relay, anderson tells you this himself you are here because you worked for cerberus.  Anderson lack of ability to see the bigger picture makes him a villian.

You could equally say that Cerberus' actions are undermining the Alliance's authority. Having two allies oppose each other is not an act of villainy. When they go to the extent of opposing the hero, it still does not make them villains, merely obstacles. The Council are not villains when they stand between you and Saren, merely an obstacle.

Additionally, Anderson does not say it is because you worked for Cerberus. He says 'the **** you pulled' which is much more vague.

If you didnt blow up the relay its hard to understand what things you pulled, the only 'bad thing' other than the relay was working for a terrorist organization. it stained the alliance, which afcourse they allowed him to do since they were deep in the mud with the collectors owning the alliance ships and destroying colonies.

When someone is not helping you and is undermining you efforts he might as well be against you. because if he is in your way he is helping your enemies the reapers. Anderson actions proved to be such a big set back that it was only due to the miraculous disovery of the crucible that the galaxy was saved in the end. there was no plan B in motion.

[essarr71]

I never said Shep could do it alone. I was pointing out none of the events youre backing your point could have happend without Shep. Theres a difference.

Cant say Im shocked you dont see that, but still...

You also forgot LotSB for events where Shep isnt "required". That and Arrival are also special-case events. Theyre optional content thats plot relevent. Nothing in vanilla shares the distinction of a successful result without Shep's hand in it.

[Erez Kristal]

essarr71 wrote...

I never said Shep could do it alone. I was pointing out none of the events youre backing your point could have happend without Shep. Theres a difference.

Cant say Im shocked you dont see that, but still...

You also forgot LotSB for events where Shep isnt "required". That and Arrival are also special-case events. Theyre optional content thats plot relevent. Nothing in vanilla shares the distinction of a successful result without Shep's hand in it.

Most likely most of these would have been faliures without shepard that much is true. but the same i can say about the rest of his team. each improves upon the chances of success, shepard presence more than others. cerberus more than everyone else combine. shepard's the muscle tim was the brain.

Modifié par erezike, 24 mai 2013 - 04:23 .

[iOnlySignIn]

The greatest hero in the history of the universe is the worker who made the faulty condom worn by Shepard's dad.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 21 mai 2013 - 11:24 .

[Erez Kristal]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The greatest hero in the history of the universe is the worker who made the faulty condom worn by Shepard's dad.

Since my shepard was earthborn i will have to agree

[CJHook]

erezike, all you are really saying is that Cerberus played a significant role in the ME story. You only see it as positive as it turned out the reaper cycles ended at the end of the trilogy. In fact, if a Shepard chose the refuse option at the end of the game your argument would have to change to place Cerberus squarely to blame for the reapers wiping out the present cycle by bringing back someone who was incapable of taking necessary action when it mattered most.

Also you are making massive assumptions as to what might have happened had there been no Cerberus. It's just speculation.

Perhaps Cerberus achieved positive things for humanity. However, only for humanity, and their methods were immoral to a great many. Perhaps even amoral. If you feel the ends justify the means, Cerberus would seem good. If you feel that there's more to life that acheiving results, Cerberus would seem bad. If you value more than just the advance of humans only, Cerberus would seem bad.

Besides, by the end, TIM and his organization were clearly working for the reapers, albeit that was never Cerberus' plan at the start. Even if they did do lots of good (and a lot of people in the MEverse feel that they did) by the end they were nothing but trouble.

To be fair, the fact that you can even make this argument is a good thing. TIM may wear black and white, but he is all shades of grey.

[Erez Kristal]

CJHook wrote...

erezike, all you are really saying is that Cerberus played a significant role in the ME story. You only see it as positive as it turned out the reaper cycles ended at the end of the trilogy. In fact, if a Shepard chose the refuse option at the end of the game your argument would have to change to place Cerberus squarely to blame for the reapers wiping out the present cycle by bringing back someone who was incapable of taking necessary action when it mattered most.

Also you are making massive assumptions as to what might have happened had there been no Cerberus. It's just speculation.

Perhaps Cerberus achieved positive things for humanity. However, only for humanity, and their methods were immoral to a great many. Perhaps even amoral. If you feel the ends justify the means, Cerberus would seem good. If you feel that there's more to life that acheiving results, Cerberus would seem bad. If you value more than just the advance of humans only, Cerberus would seem bad.

Besides, by the end, TIM and his organization were clearly working for the reapers, albeit that was never Cerberus' plan at the start. Even if they did do lots of good (and a lot of people in the MEverse feel that they did) by the end they were nothing but trouble.

To be fair, the fact that you can even make this argument is a good thing. TIM may wear black and white, but he is all shades of grey.

Thanks for your input, cerbrerus action were indeed immoral and i believe even the illusive man deemed it this way but saw no alternative in his crusade to save humanity. aliens and the rest of the galaxy were merely tools to be used in his quest and would have most likely fared worse had he succeeded in controling the reapers. Human first shepard would support cerberus more than the kind who sees the aliens as partners. i liked how this issue was portrayed in mass effect one in the debates between human apologists to the more human militant views. in me3 you see a picture where still every race only does whats good for itself and resfuses to work together unless it benefit them.

[Display Name Owner]

What this says to me more than anything else is that Cerberus were overused as the go-to cause for every event in the story. Really, almost every technological innovation, every weapons advancement, the most advanced ship's creation, every major occurrence, Cerbrus did it.

But yes, I do think that despite their many crimes, it's worth remembering that Cerberus did produce certain contributions to the galaxy as well. Although incidentally, if Shepard hadn't been around (admittedly because guess who brought him back to life), Cerberus would have started a new Rachni infestation, followed by a technological apocalypse.

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...

What this says to me more than anything else is that Cerberus were overused as the go-to cause for every event in the story. Really, almost every technological innovation, every weapons advancement, the most advanced ship's creation, every major occurrence, Cerbrus did it.

But yes, I do think that despite their many crimes, it's worth remembering that Cerberus did produce certain contributions to the galaxy as well. Although incidentally, if Shepard hadn't been around (admittedly because guess who brought him back to life), Cerberus would have started a new Rachni infestation, followed by a technological apocalypse.

I agree with all of this.
They should improve their safety protocols.

It is very overwhelming that despite humanity and cerberus very new on the galactic game they have both manage to become one of the biggest players, or the biggest players on all fields. military might, intel, scietific discoveries and diplomatic realtions. humanity should have been weaker and cerberus should have stay the black ops they were in mass effect 2 instead of the armada they are in me3

Modifié par erezike, 21 mai 2013 - 05:50 .

[tanisha__unknown]

Sure life would be great if we had just lots of renegade evil terrorist groups like cerberus. Excellent point OP.

[Erez Kristal]

Jinx1720 wrote...

Sure life would be great if we had just lots of renegade evil terrorist groups like cerberus. Excellent point OP.

Life would be great, but cerberus are hardly evil as the alliance and council would like you to believe.
The people in the alliance who say cerberus are evil are the same kind of incompetent tools who sat two years on theirs arse on the citadel doing nothing... a biography when the reapers around? seriously...
And council are afraid of cerberus because they are afraid of humanity, the salarian have the stg, the asari their commando and the turians never liked humans.  and if you think the quarrian know something you should remember they will lie and betray you just as easily as the rest. humanity is on its own and cerberus is our savior.

[P. Domi]

Remember Akuze

Modifié par pablodomi, 22 mai 2013 - 03:00 .

[Wolfva2]

Hey, Hitler made the trains run on time. He took a dissolute, broken people with an abysmal economy and made them one of the most powerful nations in the world. He cleaned up the streets, increased education, created jobs, and lowered the crime rate. Therefore, Hitler was a good person! Unlike that evil villain Winston Churchill who was living in near obscurity at the time because of his screw ups as SecNav in WWI, like Gallipoli.

I mean, that's the argument you're making here. Because Cerebus' did some good, they're the good guys whereas Anderson is the villain. Doing good deeds does not automatically make you a good person. Intent matters. So sure, Hitler did all those nice things. He also used those punctual trains to transport 7 million Jews to slavery and death, oppressed his people with an iron fist, and waged a horribly devastating war on innocent people who just wanted to live in peace.

Cerebus did some good. But not intentionally; any good they did was for their OWN good, to further THEIR goals of galactic superiority for Humankind. They saw no problem with torturing and killing anyone in their way to get what they wanted.

Apologies to Godwin's law.

[tanisha__unknown]

erezike wrote...

Jinx1720 wrote...

Sure life would be great if we had just lots of renegade evil terrorist groups like cerberus. Excellent point OP.

Life would be great, but cerberus are hardly evil as the alliance and council would like you to believe.
The people in the alliance who say cerberus are evil are the same kind of incompetent tools who sat two years on theirs arse on the citadel doing nothing... a biography when the reapers around? seriously...
And council are afraid of cerberus because they are afraid of humanity, the salarian have the stg, the asari their commando and the turians never liked humans.  and if you think the quarrian know something you should remember they will lie and betray you just as easily as the rest. humanity is on its own and cerberus is our savior.

If  I remember  their actions from ME1 and ME2 correctly, they
- experimented with an ancient civilization that once posed an enormous threat to the galaxy (Rachni)
- initiated a thresher maw attack on an alliance military squad
- injected thresher maw venom into an alliance soldier to see how it would turn out
- killed children to create a super biotic
- tortured a child to make it a super biotic
- detonated eezo freighters over colonies to make biotics, condemning large parts of their population to die from cancer
- I think it was mentioned in LotSb, that  they took part in assassination attempts of politicians
- killed an alliance admiral
- huskified people to study indoctrination

I don't know which delusions you suffer from, but they ARE evil. Unless you don't use the common definition of evil layed down in the Oxford dictionary, but rather some strange language where up means down, plus means minus, good means bad and right is wrong.

In the end, they did little to stop the Reapers. TIM failed, if you remember.

[tanisha__unknown]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Hey, Hitler made the trains run on time. He took a dissolute, broken people with an abysmal economy and made them one of the most powerful nations in the world. He cleaned up the streets, increased education, created jobs, and lowered the crime rate. Therefore, Hitler was a good person! Unlike that evil villain Winston Churchill who was living in near obscurity at the time because of his screw ups as SecNav in WWI, like Gallipoli.

I mean, that's the argument you're making here. Because Cerebus' did some good, they're the good guys whereas Anderson is the villain. Doing good deeds does not automatically make you a good person. Intent matters. So sure, Hitler did all those nice things. He also used those punctual trains to transport 7 million Jews to slavery and death, oppressed his people with an iron fist, and waged a horribly devastating war on innocent people who just wanted to live in peace.

Cerebus did some good. But not intentionally; any good they did was for their OWN good, to further THEIR goals of galactic superiority for Humankind. They saw no problem with torturing and killing anyone in their way to get what they wanted.

Apologies to Godwin's law.

In the end, he didn't. After he was dead, Germany was occupied by four different nations, one of which had been sort of a mortal enemies for quite some time. Just for precision...

[Erez Kristal]

I am going to ignore godwin law here, because despite your important efforts to remind everyone of the holocaust. i feel they have no place here. genocide and killing have been with us from the beginning of time. The only thing that changes is the reasonning behind them. the reasonning may be good to some and evil to others. its all about which side of the fence you are.

My people were on the bad side of the fence. most of them failed to see what coming or wanted to ignore it as truth. few of those who did see what will one day happen tried to escape. some of them succeeded but many of them were turned away and sent back to germany or nearby countries and in many ways to their death.

Cerberus were doing many killings, many experiments which resulted in death. in a perfect world such actions werent needed but diplomacy can only get you so far... hell if diplomacy was that powerful we wouldnt have and tps game. how many people have shepard killed? a hundred, one thousand? thousands in close combat and 300.000 in explosions. you can say the reapers forced his hands. Tim would argue the same. he isnt the battle master to charge with his troops as grunt wisely pointed out. no he is the master chessplayer who manages to see the entire picture in the end he succeded he ensured humaniy survival. he may be judged as a villian in the days to come. you may only remember the bad actions he had to take in order to ensure the survival of the human race. but i will remember him as the one man who was willing to do whatever it takes to endure suffering guilt and selfinflicted pain in order to save as many as he could.
You may question his methods but you cannot question his results.

I will say the opposite for anderson.
his high end 'moral claims' in a far greater death count than cerberus ever inflicted on anyone and that includes experiments, coups attempts, assassinations and attacks on the alliance facilities.