103 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Regardless of how you feel about Cerberus, in ME3 they are indoctrinated. Whatever they were before, they exist now only to further the Reapers cause. You really have no choice but to fight them. TIM has lost it, and really for the good of the galaxy, he needs to be stopped.

As Nightwriter used with the burning building analogy, they're attacking firefighters trying to put out the fire.

And this is coming from me, one of the most die-hard Cerberus/TIM defenders on these forums.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 mai 2013 - 06:37 .

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Regardless of how you feel about Cerberus, in ME3 they are indoctrinated. Whatever they were before, they exist now only to further the Reapers cause. You really have no choice but to fight them. TIM has lost it, and really for the good of the galaxy, he needs to be stopped.

As Nightwriter used with the burning building analogy, they're attacking firefighters trying to put out the fire.

And this is coming from me, one of the most die-hard Cerberus/TIM defenders on these forums.

In me 3 it is true. mostly because shepard isnt allowed to look for another way to solve the cerberus-alliance conflict.

However this thread is about the events that come prior to me3 in retribution 
Which partly pushed cerberus to isolation and refuse working together with galaxy. in me3 they were less anti galactic races as much as we will do it our own way then no matter the cost. they were only indoctiranted when the illusive man knows his time is running out and he implant himself with reaper tech soon after he tells the reapers about the crucible and the citadel.

Prior to me3 after we have just witnessed cerberus greatest success anderson decides to launch a fatal attack against them which resulted in their further isolation. this is what this thread is about. its about that decision and human lives lost because of it.

[Wolfva2]

Jinx1720 wrote...
In the end, he didn't. After he was dead, Germany was occupied by four different nations, one of which had been sort of a mortal enemies for quite some time. Just for precision...

True; I said he made Germany one of the most powerful nations in the world.  I didn't say for how long

[Wolfva2]

erezike wrote...

I am going to ignore godwin law here, because despite your important efforts to remind everyone of the holocaust. i feel they have no place here. genocide and killing have been with us from the beginning of time. The only thing that changes is the reasonning behind them. the reasonning may be good to some and evil to others. its all about which side of the fence you are.

My people were on the bad side of the fence. most of them failed to see what coming or wanted to ignore it as truth. few of those who did see what will one day happen tried to escape. some of them succeeded but many of them were turned away and sent back to germany or nearby countries and in many ways to their death.

Cerberus were doing many killings, many experiments which resulted in death. in a perfect world such actions werent needed but diplomacy can only get you so far... hell if diplomacy was that powerful we wouldnt have and tps game. how many people have shepard killed? a hundred, one thousand? thousands in close combat and 300.000 in explosions. you can say the reapers forced his hands. Tim would argue the same. he isnt the battle master to charge with his troops as grunt wisely pointed out. no he is the master chessplayer who manages to see the entire picture in the end he succeded he ensured humaniy survival. he may be judged as a villian in the days to come. you may only remember the bad actions he had to take in order to ensure the survival of the human race. but i will remember him as the one man who was willing to do whatever it takes to endure suffering guilt and selfinflicted pain in order to save as many as he could.
You may question his methods but you cannot question his results.

I will say the opposite for anderson.
his high end 'moral claims' in a far greater death count than cerberus ever inflicted on anyone and that includes experiments, coups attempts, assassinations and attacks on the alliance facilities.

My 'important efforts to remind everyone of the holocaust'???  Gee, what a way to completely minimize my point.  "Oh, don't listen to him!  He's just one of those holocaust folks always trying to shove it down our throats!"  The POINT I was making is INTENT MATTERS.  Hitler is one example of a person who committed great acts of evil to gain power.  I could have used Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam, Atilla the Hun, Barney the Dinosaur.  

Shepard, and Anderson, kill to protect life.  They kill those who attack the innocent, the defenseless.  Cerberus, on the other hand ATTACKS the defenseless.  They capture them, torture them, do experiments.  All so THEY can become more powerful.  To them, the innocent are chattel to be used.  Hitler attacked and conquered countries and peoples for his own power.  TIM does the SAME THING.  He claims to be trying to help humanity, but he considers HIMSELF humanity; all those other people out there are just resources for him to use.

You try to claim that Cerberus was this 'force of good' just helping the galaxy until evil Anderson attacked them.  So, let's see.  Blowing up freighters to irradiate pregnant women in order to make biotic children.  Snatching a child from her mother, torturing her, and forcing her to kill OTHER children to prove her strength, at least the children that survived their own torturous experimentation.  Heck, they were considered a terrorist organization back in ME1, and were known for illegal human experimentation as well as their anti-alien bent.   You claim we can not question his results.  His results?   At a time when the Galaxy needs to be unified, he forces the Alliance to fight a 2 front war.  He tries to destroy key allied alien defences.  He sets up a place called 'Sanctuary' with the promise of safety, then TAKES THE PEOPLE AND TURNS THEM INTO FREAKING HUSKS!  Kidnaps entire colonies and converts them into modified Cerberus soldiers, stripped of all free will!  And YOU say, "Hey man, that's a GOOD THING!  He's a great man!  We should all emulate him!"  He IS Hitler.  He IS Pol Pot.  He IS Stalin.  He is every single power hungry egoist who thinks HIS way is the only way, that what HE wants is what is good for all, and he will happily trod upon the skulls of babies if it gets him the power he craves.  And you?  You will dance behind him, proudly holding up his coat tails so they don't get splattered with brains.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

erezike wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Regardless of how you feel about Cerberus, in ME3 they are indoctrinated. Whatever they were before, they exist now only to further the Reapers cause. You really have no choice but to fight them. TIM has lost it, and really for the good of the galaxy, he needs to be stopped.

As Nightwriter used with the burning building analogy, they're attacking firefighters trying to put out the fire.

And this is coming from me, one of the most die-hard Cerberus/TIM defenders on these forums.

In me 3 it is true. mostly because shepard isnt allowed to look for another way to solve the cerberus-alliance conflict.

However this thread is about the events that come prior to me3 in retribution 
Which partly pushed cerberus to isolation and refuse working together with galaxy. in me3 they were less anti galactic races as much as we will do it our own way then no matter the cost. they were only indoctiranted when the illusive man knows his time is running out and he implant himself with reaper tech soon after he tells the reapers about the crucible and the citadel.

Prior to me3 after we have just witnessed cerberus greatest success anderson decides to launch a fatal attack against them which resulted in their further isolation. this is what this thread is about. its about that decision and human lives lost because of it.

He was indoctrinated long before he told the Reapers about the Citadel. He was indoctrinated before long before ME3 even started. I think you're taking what is shown at Cronos as sequential events, which it is not.

In ME3, everything about them is pro-Reaper. That's because the Reapers wanted them that way. They may say many different things, but really that's all there is. They're semi-independent prior to the later events of the game due to the Reapers use for them to disrupt the galactic forces, but this semi-indoctrination is what leads them to be more chaotic in their goals. It twists their original vision and turns it into a dark, corrupted, fragmented idea based on humanity first politics, because that's what the Reapers want them to be.

Sanctuary was when the Reapers realized that Cerberus had a little bit too much autonomy. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wolfva2 wrote...

My 'important efforts to remind everyone of the holocaust'???  Gee, what a way to completely minimize my point.  "Oh, don't listen to him!  He's just one of those holocaust folks always trying to shove it down our throats!"  The POINT I was making is INTENT MATTERS.  Hitler is one example of a person who committed great acts of evil to gain power.  I could have used Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam, Atilla the Hun, Barney the Dinosaur.  

Shepard, and Anderson, kill to protect life.  They kill those who attack the innocent, the defenseless.  Cerberus, on the other hand ATTACKS the defenseless.  They capture them, torture them, do experiments.  All so THEY can become more powerful.  To them, the innocent are chattel to be used.  Hitler attacked and conquered countries and peoples for his own power.  TIM does the SAME THING.  He claims to be trying to help humanity, but he considers HIMSELF humanity; all those other people out there are just resources for him to use.

You try to claim that Cerberus was this 'force of good' just helping the galaxy until evil Anderson attacked them.  So, let's see.  Blowing up freighters to irradiate pregnant women in order to make biotic children.  Snatching a child from her mother, torturing her, and forcing her to kill OTHER children to prove her strength, at least the children that survived their own torturous experimentation.  Heck, they were considered a terrorist organization back in ME1, and were known for illegal human experimentation as well as their anti-alien bent.   You claim we can not question his results.  His results?   At a time when the Galaxy needs to be unified, he forces the Alliance to fight a 2 front war.  He tries to destroy key allied alien defences.  He sets up a place called 'Sanctuary' with the promise of safety, then TAKES THE PEOPLE AND TURNS THEM INTO FREAKING HUSKS!  Kidnaps entire colonies and converts them into modified Cerberus soldiers, stripped of all free will!  And YOU say, "Hey man, that's a GOOD THING!  He's a great man!  We should all emulate him!"  He IS Hitler.  He IS Pol Pot.  He IS Stalin.  He is every single power hungry egoist who thinks HIS way is the only way, that what HE wants is what is good for all, and he will happily trod upon the skulls of babies if it gets him the power he craves.  And you?  You will dance behind him, proudly holding up his coat tails so they don't get splattered with brains.

To be honest, the reason TIM came to that mindset was because the Reapers wanted him to do it. They wanted him to stir the pot. And it bloody worked like a charm.

I blame Cerberus and TIM for really only one thing. Somewhere down the line, they got the arrogance to believe that they could control Reaper tech and turn it against them. I think that in is of itself a sign of indoctrination. 

Really everything bad about Cerberus in ME3 comes down to indoctrination.

And on the point of innocent civilians, yes my Shepard too, like TIM, believes that they are a resource to be exploited. If I can prevent the Reapers from destroying all life in the Galaxy by doing vicious, cruel, and inhumane experiments on civilians, then I will do them with no second thoughts or remorse.

Those civilians won't serve the war effort in any other way. They can't. Past reaching an equilibrium of output and resources to the maximum labor I can utilize with the minimum amount of resources spent to maintain that labor force, I have an excess population of civilians. Are you suggesting I spend further resources - resources that would be better served for the war effort - should go to them? 

I can make those civilians a resource of my own. Mindless fodder to throw at the Reapers so that I don't have to waste valuable military resources holding the line, or bait to lure the Reapers into a city where a 20 megaton surprise is waiting for them.

The civilians are something I can't afford to save, but I can't afford to let the Reapers have them either. They're going to die no matter what you do, so I might as well make them useful in death. That's why I'm perfectly accepting of what Cerberus does to fight the Reapers. I'm just opposed to why they're doing what they do: whatever they may say they're doing, it's for the Reapers. Because that's what the Reapers want them to do, because Cerberus is indoctrinated. 

It's a bloody shame. I wish I had them on our side. They might have been able to find other ways to combat the Reapers. To give us more of an edge, so that I didn't have to resort to using heinous things on my civilians to win the war.

I will say I blame the alliance and council for that though.

Their inaction, and subsequent lack of readiness in the face of the Reaper threat has forced me to adopt more untoward methods and a much more ruthless, cruel, and brutal mindset and strategy.

I'm ignoring the argument about Anderson. I'm personally not a huge fan of the guy. That's really all that needs to be said from my end.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 mai 2013 - 08:31 .

[Erez Kristal]

I hardly believe the reaper would want them to make a a reapers control device, kill grayson, destroy the collectors, defeat the shadow brooker and help the galaxy get access to important information.

Tim was in a constant struggle against indoctrinatation ever since he came in contact with the artifact in shanxi. however everything he done since then was to prepare for fighting the reapers and other galactic threats for humanity. he only fully was indoctrinated when he finnaly installed himself with reaper tech implants. we do not know when this occured we can assume it was after he recieved the data from horizon and desperately tried to use it in order to control the reapers and save humanity.

Wolva dont get me wrong i appriceate it a lot whenever someone remind people of the holocaust and uses it as en example for wrong human behaviour. as it support the causes of my people. however we too often get muddled in the past we fail to notice what is happening right before our eyes...

I also think we should use as few reallife examples as possibile, remember humanity never faced global annihilation and no matter what example you try to fill this vaccum with. you will fail.

Nightwriter talked about the burning building. and attack the firefighters, its not how this happened in game. what happened is the cerberus attacked the firefighters, took over their station and equipment in order to save a bigger fire down the road since those firefighters didnt listen. it was crude but they did it in order to save more lives at the end. not to finish them.

The man who really only attack firefighters for the sake of it was anderson who initiated the attack on cerberus prior to me3

[Wolfva2]

Well Mass, I may disagree with you often but I do respect your position. You don't try justifying it with crass platonics, you just say it out straight.

The curious thing about TIM, is it seems to be insinuated in the game that he may have known about the Reapers far longer then anyone else. That, plus the comments about Cerberus once being a spec ops unit in the alliance, makes me wonder if he was originally tasked with finding out about, and solving, the Reaper question but decided to splinter from the Alliance to go his own way, realizing that he would have to do things the Alliance would not stomach, or allow him to do. Which, of course, doesn't make him right. Just means he was to myopic to see another way.

Erezike. I'd ask you to stop this passively aggressive attempt at insulting me, but I'd just be wasting my time. I didn't speak about the Holocaust. I pointed out many of the things that Hitler did that could be considered positive. Such as making the trains run on time; I then pointed out he used those trains to attempt genocide. And continued to make my point that INTENTIONS MATTER. You, however, keep insisting that I'm 'reminding' people about the Holocaust as if I'm quoting Anne Frank's diary or something. But hey, if it allows you to completely dismiss my entire premiss with no attempt at all whatsoever to actually address it, go for it! I can understand that you lack the ability to stick to the topic.

Anderson initiated an attack on a terrorist organization which was guilty of many crimes against Humanity (and other races). To you, that's a bad thing. It shows how evil he was. So, why did he do it? For wanton slaughter? To gain power? No. He did it because it is part of his job to PROTECT THE PEOPLE CERBERUS WAS ATTACKING, KILLING, TORTURING, and EXPERIMENTING UPON. They had been doing this since before ME1. It was alluded even in the first game that they were terrorists; we found scientists of theirs conducting experiments that can only be called evil. In ME2 we're shown that apx 20 years earlier they had been kidnapping and experimenting on children. But, according to you, that's ok. That's great. It's completely and perfectly acceptable to tell a young woman that her daughter died, then whisk said daughter to a private lab where she is tortured and experimented on and forced to kill other children. Not only is it acceptable...it is LAUDABLE! We should pin a medal on TIM's chest for it! But Anderson, the man trying to STOP this type of activity...which had been going on before we even knew about the reaper menace, HE'S the bad guy?

[Caldari Ghost]

and that's why the geth are superior. they, really, are superior.

[andy6915]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

and that's why the geth are superior. they, really, are superior.

Nice jump in logic.

"my sister ate tons of apples when she was young, therefor she is now pregnant with an octopus."

Just... Wut?

[Caldari Ghost]

andy69156915 wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

and that's why the geth are superior. they, really, are superior.

Nice jump in logic.

"my sister ate tons of apples when she was young, therefor she is now pregnant with an octopus."

Just... Wut?

i was alluding to the OP.

and it was a joke.
also your anology did not correctly reflect the logic of my post.

[andy6915]

...I make a post like that, and you miss the joke while telling me I can't catch a joke? Fail. Point still stands, that logic was just weird. "Cerberus was actually the heroes all along, therefor the Geth are superior" isn't actually that different from the apple-easting-sister-has-an-octopus joke.

[Caldari Ghost]

andy69156915 wrote...

...I make a post like that, and you miss the joke while telling me I can't catch a joke? Fail. Point still stands, that logic was just weird. "Cerberus was actually the heroes all along, therefor the Geth are superior" isn't actually that different from the apple-easting-sister-has-an-octopus joke.

sorry man. i'm still trying to figure out the people on this part of BSN. i hail from the MP section. i was referring to the part of the OP where the geth kick the quarian's ass.

[andy6915]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

...I make a post like that, and you miss the joke while telling me I can't catch a joke? Fail. Point still stands, that logic was just weird. "Cerberus was actually the heroes all along, therefor the Geth are superior" isn't actually that different from the apple-easting-sister-has-an-octopus joke.

sorry man. i'm still trying to figure out the people on this part of BSN. i hail from the MP section. i was referring to the part of the OP where the geth kick the quarian's ass.

Then you needed to quote that specific part of the post instead of leaving it vague about what exactly you're referring to, a statement without context is never easy to follow.

[Erez Kristal]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Well Mass, I may disagree with you often but I do respect your position. You don't try justifying it with crass platonics, you just say it out straight.

The curious thing about TIM, is it seems to be insinuated in the game that he may have known about the Reapers far longer then anyone else. That, plus the comments about Cerberus once being a spec ops unit in the alliance, makes me wonder if he was originally tasked with finding out about, and solving, the Reaper question but decided to splinter from the Alliance to go his own way, realizing that he would have to do things the Alliance would not stomach, or allow him to do. Which, of course, doesn't make him right. Just means he was to myopic to see another way.

Erezike. I'd ask you to stop this passively aggressive attempt at insulting me, but I'd just be wasting my time. I didn't speak about the Holocaust. I pointed out many of the things that Hitler did that could be considered positive. Such as making the trains run on time; I then pointed out he used those trains to attempt genocide. And continued to make my point that INTENTIONS MATTER. You, however, keep insisting that I'm 'reminding' people about the Holocaust as if I'm quoting Anne Frank's diary or something. But hey, if it allows you to completely dismiss my entire premiss with no attempt at all whatsoever to actually address it, go for it! I can understand that you lack the ability to stick to the topic.

Anderson initiated an attack on a terrorist organization which was guilty of many crimes against Humanity (and other races). To you, that's a bad thing. It shows how evil he was. So, why did he do it? For wanton slaughter? To gain power? No. He did it because it is part of his job to PROTECT THE PEOPLE CERBERUS WAS ATTACKING, KILLING, TORTURING, and EXPERIMENTING UPON. They had been doing this since before ME1. It was alluded even in the first game that they were terrorists; we found scientists of theirs conducting experiments that can only be called evil. In ME2 we're shown that apx 20 years earlier they had been kidnapping and experimenting on children. But, according to you, that's ok. That's great. It's completely and perfectly acceptable to tell a young woman that her daughter died, then whisk said daughter to a private lab where she is tortured and experimented on and forced to kill other children. Not only is it acceptable...it is LAUDABLE! We should pin a medal on TIM's chest for it! But Anderson, the man trying to STOP this type of activity...which had been going on before we even knew about the reaper menace, HE'S the bad guy?

As you mentioned later in your posts there are many examples you could have choosen from yet you decided to voccaly use the holocaust and hitler as an examples for your point, while there is simply no need to use real life examples in order for you to make your point. it all falls back to "does the end justify the means". while we would all want it to be black and white and say loudly that the end doesnt justify the means. in practice we all start calculating how many we will be willing to kill in order to save a vastly greater number. soon after we start to calculate which ways are ok to kill people and which ways are wrong to kill people while in that discussion people forget that those people who are being killed would rather have lived than died and for them death is still death. for them being killed by a reaper isnt better than being killed by cerberus in order to save more lives later on.

You pointed that cerberus was part of the alliance. many suggested that they were still part of the alliance until maybe me3 and that they simply distant themself further in order to have a greater degree of freedom. one part of the military doesnt know most of the other units. blackops units work best when they are under the radar and the person who is directing them cannot be linked to.assassinations are a very common human way to push forward decisions you couldnt be doing through different means. i dont mean they are right, because right and wrong are slippery and people who say otherwise are blind to many things which are wrong in every society. right and wrong(law) are merely convienent means for control they are a necessity for a functional society. but when faced with annihilation  it is more important to save with whatever means possibile. you see the purpose of right and wrong and others laws is to protect the society but if everyone are dead there is just no use for it.

Cerberus was rightly named a terrorist organization it would simply no beא possible to keep society in a functional order if they were officialy named to be part of the alliance. Anderson was following the law when he chased down cerberus he thought he was doing the right thing but great leaders do more than that. they see ahead, this is why not all armies intervene when there is conflict in another country, they may want to make one regime fall but the leaders know that sometimes the evil you know is better, or that the evil you know is preventing from a greater evil from overcoming you.

You see wolfva, im not trying to insult you in any way. Im merely trying to show a different way of view to this debate and as to the majority viewpoint of the bsn community it is good you see life this way. if everyone would see right and wrong as they are. we will all be living in a much grimer universe.

Modifié par erezike, 24 mai 2013 - 04:12 .

[Caldari Ghost]

andy69156915 wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

...I make a post like that, and you miss the joke while telling me I can't catch a joke? Fail. Point still stands, that logic was just weird. "Cerberus was actually the heroes all along, therefor the Geth are superior" isn't actually that different from the apple-easting-sister-has-an-octopus joke.

sorry man. i'm still trying to figure out the people on this part of BSN. i hail from the MP section. i was referring to the part of the OP where the geth kick the quarian's ass.

Then you needed to quote that specific part of the post instead of leaving it vague about what exactly you're referring to, a statement without context is never easy to follow.

how about the part where i mention geth?

and you are mean. i take back my sorry. *****

[essarr71]

Caldari Ghost wrote...
how about the part where i mention geth?

and you are mean. i take back my sorry. *****

The OP is a fww days old. No ones talking about the Geth. Chill, dude. Some context would have helped. 

[Erez Kristal]

andy69156915 wrote...

...I make a post like that, and you miss the joke while telling me I can't catch a joke? Fail. Point still stands, that logic was just weird. "Cerberus was actually the heroes all along, therefor the Geth are superior" isn't actually that different from the apple-easting-sister-has-an-octopus joke.

Many times the biggest hero is the slient one who is in the background.
We can use that leap of logic in many places. the big difference is the intention of the person behind the action.

The intention of cerberus was to save humanity and if they can then also other races. they planned and worked to make this happen. nothing was random or of coincidence. you may question some of the things i posted that would have happened such as the heretics taking over the geth and the quarrian being annihilated but you are forgetting one important and very big thing.

Cerberus didnt bring shepard back just for the collectors. they first scouted him to help them fight the reapers. they planned to help him unite the galaxy, they gave him every resource they could muster in order to succeed. it was the biggest egg in the basket. as for the geth, they had other plans in motion for the geth that would have helped in case the galaxy would need to face the geth again on a larger scale.

Modifié par erezike, 24 mai 2013 - 04:16 .

[essarr71]

Where arr you getting the "unite the galaxy" and Cerbs intentions to help other races?

Youre just making more stuff up now.

[Erez Kristal]

essarr71 wrote...

Where arr you getting the "unite the galaxy" and Cerbs intentions to help other races?

Youre just making more stuff up now.

Tim, miri and two steps from hell say it better than me.

[essarr71]

erezike wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Where arr you getting the "unite the galaxy" and Cerbs intentions to help other races?

Youre just making more stuff up now.

Tim, miri and two steps from hell say it better than me.

why am I not shocked your source is a piece of propaganda..

Cerb actions, please.  Show me where they united and helped all races.  Tag lines are for tshirts. 

Modifié par essarr71, 23 mai 2013 - 11:47 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Anderscum is a ****** who did the dumbest things in Mass Effect Retribution simply to impress his waifu.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 23 mai 2013 - 09:22 .

[tanisha__unknown]

You, erezike, are immune to ingame facts as well as the application of common definitions of terrorism and crime.

As Shepard said to the council in ME1: You've made your decision. I am not wasting my breath on you.

[Erez Kristal]

Jinx1720 wrote...

You, erezike, are immune to ingame facts as well as the application of common definitions of terrorism and crime.

As Shepard said to the council in ME1: You've made your decision. I am not wasting my breath on you.

I thank you for your dedicated service.

[Ahms]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Apologies to Godwin's law.

For.