Honestly, the only reason why I even beat the d*mn game is to get the flashback sequence that shows: Joker (lol, why him?), Anderson, and [insert LI]. I also like the song at the end and it makes me terribly sad, but it is the conclusion of Shepard's journey, They could have done SO much more with the time that they took to produce the extended cut; heck, I would have even paid for it if the extended cut actually did anything other than those absurd slides (terrible IMO, since BW claims that their games have a 'cinematic focus') and that scene with the KIA wall. It wasn't just the ending that made me mad; it was almost everything about the final mission. It felt so hasty for an ending, and I'm so confused why Rannoch and Tuchanka had way more effort in it than the conclusion of the game. If anything, the ending should have been the greater focus; it is the culmination of all of our actions. Refuse was like a finger to the fans. $>passion for video game quality nowadays, especially for EAWare...
The refuse option is a joke
Débuté par
Faust1979
, mai 19 2013 06:51
Retour en haut
#327
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 04:19
tanisha__unknown
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An interesting turn these forums take recently.
All the arguments in favor of refuse have been stated already, all those in favor of the other endings as well.
synthesis:
+ best ending
+ technological advancement
+ peaceful solution, everybody survives
+ the 'central conflict' (I never perceived it as THE major theme of ME) is resolved (frankly speaking, I don't see that the synthetic-organic conflict is inevitable, I don't understand the concept of this ending, so even if the synthetic-organic conflict was inevitably there, I don't really get how that is resolved)
+ Reaper's advanced knowledge and that of the harvested civilizations is commonly accessible
- it is poorly written and makes no sense - how does it even work? You jump into a beam, your energy, whatever this may be, is added to the crucible and we suddenly have circuits on our skin? How many drugs do you have to take to think of this stuff?
- it comes the hell out of nowhere
- you force a fundamental change of everyone's very nature on everybody
control
+ Shepard lives somehow
+ Shepard becomes the new Reaper overlord - how cool is that, a great option for power hungry renegades
+ the Reapers use their advanced tech to help the galaxy rebuild, their tech is not wasted as in destroy
+ the Reaper fleet will protect the galaxy from foes
- Shepard becomes the new Reaper overlord - who says he's going to stay benign, especially since he is somehow different
- it does not precisely come out of nowhere, it was insinuated as a solution, still it would have worked better if Shepard had not refused it flat out through the game, no matter wether he's renegade or paragon
- it is very poorly reasoned. basically Shepard supplants the current catalyst. the catalyst's task was to find a solution for the ever occuring synthetic-organic conflict. He never stated that he is fed up with his mission, so that he wants Shepard to do the job for him. Why does he offer that option? Why is the problem solved when Shepard takes over?
- And why the hell does it require Shepard to touch two highly charged electrodes? I mean, if some probes were drilled into his head like in modern medicine or at least something attached to it, I would get it. But just touching those thingies looks like a splendid way to electrocute yourself.
destroy
+ Shepard lives
+ you achieve what you tried to do since ME1
+ the thread by the Reapers is ceased once and for all since they are all dead. Probably their carcasses may still indoctrinate people, as with the one destroyed Reaper you get the IFF from
- Synthetics are, what? Still destroyed with high EMS? Somebody confirm it please, as far as I got it from the original ending, EDI and the geth, provided you saved them, will die, as will any other synthetic lifeform, with EC I am not so sure anymore
- relays are damaged or destroyed, they may be rebuilt, but it might pose quite some challenge for a galaxy who never constructed one in the 1st place and is now largely destroyed
- the ending is still unmotivated. As stated, the catalyst's task was to find a solution for blablabla. The catalyst states very clearly that our descendants will construct synthetics and and the conflict will arise again. So destroying the Reapers and the catalyst solves the conflict how exactly? Please, I am really open for input here, I could never figure that one out.
- it is presented poorly. You shoot at some tube, which is going to blow up into your face, and then the Reapers are history? Right...
- I just figured out something. He calls the cycle his solution, but after all, according to Leviathan, it is not a solution itself, but a mean to find a solution to the problem, right? A bit sloppy...
refuse
+ Shepard stays true to his/her ideals
+ that speech...
+ it makes sense to assume that the Reaper overlord is lying to you. Reapers rely on deception, that has been proven throughout the trilogy. The subtle way indoctrination works, luring the government officials into Reapers to "negotiate", while attempting to indoctrinate, stuff like that tells a lot about an enemy about which we generally know very little. The catalyst basically proposes that you either shoot at some tube, which is goint ot explode into your face, jump into an energy beam or touch two highly charged electrodes to achieve something no sane man or woman would ever have thought to achieve in exactly that way. Any sane man or woman would assume that this little guy is trying to kill you, because otherwise you will work his mainframe with your pistol...
+ the next cycle wins the war with the information passed down in Liara's time capsule
+ it's not out of character for Shepard to refuse
+ failure should be an option. It was promised before release that you might not be able to stop the Reapers. I like the idea that based on your actions, you could actually loose,in this context I would like another ending which is plain out loosing, where the harvest would go on for many many cycles and not be stopped due to the information in the time capsule
- this cycle is sacrificed
(- it was stated on twitter that the next cycle uses the crucible, the reason people choose this option was partly that the current solutions were unsatisfying. I don't use twitter and plain out refuse to accept anything as lore that is not in the game, so it's up to you. I will not count this as a disadavantage)
- this cycle is sacrificed
- this cycle is sacrificed
- did I say this cycle is sacrificed? All you ever fought for, the galaxy, the different specuies, your comrades and friends are dead. Everything was pretty much futile
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse. If you like to roleplay, assuming that Sheard does not know, refuse might be a viable option for you.
This has all been stated over and over and in much more elaborate fassions. Which is probably the reason why people are so eager to insult each other so quickly now...
All the arguments in favor of refuse have been stated already, all those in favor of the other endings as well.
synthesis:
+ best ending
+ technological advancement
+ peaceful solution, everybody survives
+ the 'central conflict' (I never perceived it as THE major theme of ME) is resolved (frankly speaking, I don't see that the synthetic-organic conflict is inevitable, I don't understand the concept of this ending, so even if the synthetic-organic conflict was inevitably there, I don't really get how that is resolved)
+ Reaper's advanced knowledge and that of the harvested civilizations is commonly accessible
- it is poorly written and makes no sense - how does it even work? You jump into a beam, your energy, whatever this may be, is added to the crucible and we suddenly have circuits on our skin? How many drugs do you have to take to think of this stuff?
- it comes the hell out of nowhere
- you force a fundamental change of everyone's very nature on everybody
control
+ Shepard lives somehow
+ Shepard becomes the new Reaper overlord - how cool is that, a great option for power hungry renegades
+ the Reapers use their advanced tech to help the galaxy rebuild, their tech is not wasted as in destroy
+ the Reaper fleet will protect the galaxy from foes
- Shepard becomes the new Reaper overlord - who says he's going to stay benign, especially since he is somehow different
- it does not precisely come out of nowhere, it was insinuated as a solution, still it would have worked better if Shepard had not refused it flat out through the game, no matter wether he's renegade or paragon
- it is very poorly reasoned. basically Shepard supplants the current catalyst. the catalyst's task was to find a solution for the ever occuring synthetic-organic conflict. He never stated that he is fed up with his mission, so that he wants Shepard to do the job for him. Why does he offer that option? Why is the problem solved when Shepard takes over?
- And why the hell does it require Shepard to touch two highly charged electrodes? I mean, if some probes were drilled into his head like in modern medicine or at least something attached to it, I would get it. But just touching those thingies looks like a splendid way to electrocute yourself.
destroy
+ Shepard lives
+ you achieve what you tried to do since ME1
+ the thread by the Reapers is ceased once and for all since they are all dead. Probably their carcasses may still indoctrinate people, as with the one destroyed Reaper you get the IFF from
- Synthetics are, what? Still destroyed with high EMS? Somebody confirm it please, as far as I got it from the original ending, EDI and the geth, provided you saved them, will die, as will any other synthetic lifeform, with EC I am not so sure anymore
- relays are damaged or destroyed, they may be rebuilt, but it might pose quite some challenge for a galaxy who never constructed one in the 1st place and is now largely destroyed
- the ending is still unmotivated. As stated, the catalyst's task was to find a solution for blablabla. The catalyst states very clearly that our descendants will construct synthetics and and the conflict will arise again. So destroying the Reapers and the catalyst solves the conflict how exactly? Please, I am really open for input here, I could never figure that one out.
- it is presented poorly. You shoot at some tube, which is going to blow up into your face, and then the Reapers are history? Right...
- I just figured out something. He calls the cycle his solution, but after all, according to Leviathan, it is not a solution itself, but a mean to find a solution to the problem, right? A bit sloppy...
refuse
+ Shepard stays true to his/her ideals
+ that speech...
+ it makes sense to assume that the Reaper overlord is lying to you. Reapers rely on deception, that has been proven throughout the trilogy. The subtle way indoctrination works, luring the government officials into Reapers to "negotiate", while attempting to indoctrinate, stuff like that tells a lot about an enemy about which we generally know very little. The catalyst basically proposes that you either shoot at some tube, which is goint ot explode into your face, jump into an energy beam or touch two highly charged electrodes to achieve something no sane man or woman would ever have thought to achieve in exactly that way. Any sane man or woman would assume that this little guy is trying to kill you, because otherwise you will work his mainframe with your pistol...
+ the next cycle wins the war with the information passed down in Liara's time capsule
+ it's not out of character for Shepard to refuse
+ failure should be an option. It was promised before release that you might not be able to stop the Reapers. I like the idea that based on your actions, you could actually loose,in this context I would like another ending which is plain out loosing, where the harvest would go on for many many cycles and not be stopped due to the information in the time capsule
- this cycle is sacrificed
(- it was stated on twitter that the next cycle uses the crucible, the reason people choose this option was partly that the current solutions were unsatisfying. I don't use twitter and plain out refuse to accept anything as lore that is not in the game, so it's up to you. I will not count this as a disadavantage)
- this cycle is sacrificed
- this cycle is sacrificed
- did I say this cycle is sacrificed? All you ever fought for, the galaxy, the different specuies, your comrades and friends are dead. Everything was pretty much futile
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse. If you like to roleplay, assuming that Sheard does not know, refuse might be a viable option for you.
This has all been stated over and over and in much more elaborate fassions. Which is probably the reason why people are so eager to insult each other so quickly now...
Modifié par Jinx1720, 21 mai 2013 - 05:57 .
#328
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 04:57
Ryzaki
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AlanC9 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Legbiter wrote...
I loved Bioware for trolling the hell out of players who failed the Intelligence Test and picked Refuse.
Yes chosing to blow up part of the device you worked so hard to build while walking towards the explosion, electrocute yourself to death, or jump into a giant laser and incinerating yourself are so much more intelligent.
Clearly.
Trying to do a smart thing in a dumb way versus just trying to do something dumb? Tough call.
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Yes because suicide is such a wonderful way to activate a machine.
#329
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:31
AlanC9
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Jinx1720 wrote...
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse. If you like to roleplay, refuse might be a viable option for you.
Nitpick: it's possible to know the consequences and still support Refuse. For instance, if you subscribe to a non-consequentialist morality and believe that you should do the "right thing" regardless of the consequences. Or if you believe that Shepard's cycle is so stupid it deserves to die.
I've seen both positions argued here. Whether the posters actually believed what they were saying is debatable.
#330
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:32
AlanC9
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Ryzaki wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Trying to do a smart thing in a dumb way versus just trying to do something dumb? Tough call.
Yes because suicide is such a wonderful way to activate a machine.
Yep. OTOH, it's either die fast or die slow.
#331
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:40
tanisha__unknown
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AlanC9 wrote...
Jinx1720 wrote...
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse. If you like to roleplay, refuse might be a viable option for you.
Nitpick: it's possible to know the consequences and still support Refuse. For instance, if you subscribe to a non-consequentialist morality and believe that you should do the "right thing" regardless of the consequences. Or if you believe that Shepard's cycle is so stupid it deserves to die.
I've seen both positions argued here. Whether the posters actually believed what they were saying is debatable.
Ah, somebody I can connect too:P
#332
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:41
Megaton_Hope
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It seems unlikely that Shepard would believe that about Shepard, and all the people Shepard knows. (Maybe specific people.)AlanC9 wrote...
Or if you believe that Shepard's cycle is so stupid it deserves to die.
#333
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:43
teh DRUMPf!!
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As I said in Cosmic's thread, anyone thinking Refuse should be chosen over any Crucible option simply doesn't get it.
I can just marginally accept someone not having the conscience to Destroy or Sync, but then you have Control, and the worst fear with that is that it ends up restarting the cycle, yet there's at least a very real possibility it won't restart at all whereas Refuse starts from letting it continue w/o any favorable plan to end it.
Open your eyes, kids.
I can just marginally accept someone not having the conscience to Destroy or Sync, but then you have Control, and the worst fear with that is that it ends up restarting the cycle, yet there's at least a very real possibility it won't restart at all whereas Refuse starts from letting it continue w/o any favorable plan to end it.
Open your eyes, kids.
Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 mai 2013 - 05:44 .
#334
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:45
KaiserShep
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S: Your options are crappy, and I'd rather we resolve this on our terms, not yours.
C: If you say so, but you know everyone's going to die, right?
S: So you say.
C: Seriously dude. Look up. It's like...happening right now.
S: No.
C: I SAID LOOK UP.
S: F*** off
C: [Harbinger voice] So be it. Later fool.
C: If you say so, but you know everyone's going to die, right?
S: So you say.
C: Seriously dude. Look up. It's like...happening right now.
S: No.
C: I SAID LOOK UP.
S: F*** off
C: [Harbinger voice] So be it. Later fool.
Modifié par KaiserShep, 21 mai 2013 - 05:46 .
#335
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 05:53
tanisha__unknown
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That distuingishes you from Seival:devil:HYR 2.0 wrote...
As I said in Cosmic's thread, anyone thinking Refuse should be chosen over any Crucible option simply doesn't get it.
I can just marginally accept someone not having the conscience to Destroy or Sync, but then you have Control, and the worst fear with that is that it ends up restarting the cycle, yet there's at least a very real possibility it won't restart at all whereas Refuse starts from letting it continue w/o any favorable plan to end it.
Open your eyes, kids.
Modifié par Jinx1720, 21 mai 2013 - 05:54 .
#336
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 09:01
TheProtheans
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KaiserShep wrote...
S: Your options are crappy, and I'd rather we resolve this on our terms, not yours.
C: If you say so, but you know everyone's going to die, right?
S: So you say.
C: Seriously dude. Look up. It's like...happening right now.
S: No.
C: I SAID LOOK UP.
S: F*** off
C: [Harbinger voice] So be it. Later fool.
S:This story sucks, I'm making my own ending
#337
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 10:15
Jadebaby
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Well I refused to play by BioWare's rules and destroyed their endings to make way for something far greater than you could ever hope to imagine.
#338
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 10:34
AlanC9
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Megaton_Hope wrote...
It seems unlikely that Shepard would believe that about Shepard, and all the people Shepard knows. (Maybe specific people.)AlanC9 wrote...
Or if you believe that Shepard's cycle is so stupid it deserves to die.
Something like that happened on Blake's 7, actually. But yeah, it's not very likely.
#339
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 02:13
FlamingBoy
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that ending was a poor inclusion by bioware, they probably had the best intentions with that ending. But the tone of what they tried to do with it was a complete failure and came off as an insult.
More antagonistic behavior was the last thing bioware needed, and further fueled anti-bioware feelings.
More antagonistic behavior was the last thing bioware needed, and further fueled anti-bioware feelings.
#341
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 03:52
DullahansXMark
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Yes, it literally is a joke.
People said they wanted to shoot the Starbrat. So BioWare let you do so. They also made doing so an act of suicide.
I swear, you people are dense.
People said they wanted to shoot the Starbrat. So BioWare let you do so. They also made doing so an act of suicide.
I swear, you people are dense.
#342
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:00
FlamingBoy
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DullahansXMark wrote...
Yes, it literally is a joke.
People said they wanted to shoot the Starbrat. So BioWare let you do so. They also made doing so an act of suicide.
I swear, you people are dense.
The thing about jokes, their supposed to be funny (the tone of the game was never really comedic).
The refuse ending was taken extremely seriously by bioware. Unfortunetly for them (and us) it was too short and it didn't make much sense.
#343
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:28
Bill Casey
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Synthesis is worse...Jinx1720 wrote...
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse.
If you pick refuse, at least the next cycle still has a chance...
Modifié par Bill Casey, 22 mai 2013 - 04:28 .
#344
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:30
Bill Casey
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DullahansXMark wrote...
Yes, it literally is a joke.
People said they wanted to shoot the Starbrat. So BioWare let you do so. They also made doing so an act of suicide.
I swear, you people are dense.
I want to be able to shoot the Starbrat again...
I used to do that for minutes on end; it was the best part of the god damn ending...
You could shoot him over and over on the way to your choice as well...
They removed the best part of the ending...
And that's bull****...
Modifié par Bill Casey, 22 mai 2013 - 04:32 .
#345
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:35
teh DRUMPf!!
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Bill Casey wrote...
Synthesis is worse...Jinx1720 wrote...
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse.
If you pick refuse, at least the next cycle still has a chance...
If by "worse" you mean "saving you from being a husk or uploaded into Reaper unlike Refuse" then YES, it is worse.
#346
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:44
masster blaster
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At least in Refuse the galaxy dies free, and is not changed in synthesis. Free will over a rewriting of your DNA, ya to hell that should happen, nor should it. Every organic, and synthetic can die. I won't have this cycle loose their humanity for the brat's own gain. Also if you believe that synthesis is going to magicaly change everyones understaning the Reapers are just miss understood, ya i doubt many would except it. Javik, leviathans, hackett, hell all the orphans, and our squad mates, and well the whole galaxy would not.
#347
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:53
masster blaster
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HYR 2.0 wrote...
Bill Casey wrote...
Synthesis is worse...Jinx1720 wrote...
If you know the outcome of your solutions, than any ending is better than refuse.
If you pick refuse, at least the next cycle still has a chance...
If by "worse" you mean "saving you from being a husk or uploaded into Reaper unlike Refuse" then YES, it is worse.
Freedom is gone.
Everyone is rewritin, and no longer the people they once were.
Husk are alive, which is not good because cannibals, and brutes can no longer be who they once were, nor is all the husk armys.
The Reapers are free. If Harbinger is free. A Leviathan race inside Harbinger.....bad things.
You destroyed the laws of evolution.
You kept the dead alive who should have died a long time ago.
You basically gave the intellegence what it always wanted, despite all the worngs not to trust the reapers, and understand them from so many organics, and synthetics alike.
You played god, and created new life which should not be forced on everyone. Yes i know endings are forced, but this...hell no. This crosses the line of force.
#348
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 04:57
Iakus
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Jadebaby wrote...
Well I refused to play by BioWare's rules and destroyed their endings to make way for something far greater than you could ever hope to imagine.
I don't believe in the no-win scenerio
#349
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 05:09
teh DRUMPf!!
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masster blaster wrote...
At least in Refuse the galaxy dies free, and is not changed in synthesis. Free will over a rewriting of your DNA, ya to hell that should happen, nor should it.
I'll respond to this instead of that.
... yyyeahno. Let's not kid ourselves. Change >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Death.
And DNA rewrite is commonplace in Mass Effect anyway -- through gene-therapy. Humans get it in utero to correct potential health issues. Ashley had it and is not "scarred" by it. Traynor couldn't afford it and suffers various illnesses for it.
If I remember right, one of the upgrades in Liara's cabin utilizes gene-therapy to upgrade Shep's power damage or recharge. It's not something anyone rationally complains about if it's only beneficial to them.
#350
Posté 22 mai 2013 - 05:17
MassivelyEffective0730
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HYR 2.0 wrote...
masster blaster wrote...
At least in Refuse the galaxy dies free, and is not changed in synthesis. Free will over a rewriting of your DNA, ya to hell that should happen, nor should it.
I'll respond to this instead of that.
... yyyeahno. Let's not kid ourselves. Change >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Death.
And DNA rewrite is commonplace in Mass Effect anyway -- through gene-therapy. Humans get it in utero to correct potential health issues. Ashley had it and is not "scarred" by it. Traynor couldn't afford it and suffers various illnesses for it.
If I remember right, one of the upgrades in Liara's cabin utilizes gene-therapy to upgrade Shep's power damage or recharge. It's not something anyone rationally complains about if it's only beneficial to them.
I know we agreed earlier in the thread about what we're willing to do, but I disagree here.
I'm not willing to fundamentally change everything (without knowing what the Catalyst is even meaning or saying) based on what he says he likes.
If the choice was between refuse and synthesis, or even control, I'd refuse.
