360 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I know we agreed earlier in the thread about what we're willing to do, but I disagree here.

I'm not willing to fundamentally change everything (without knowing what the Catalyst is even meaning or saying) based on what he says he likes.

I actually kind of get that part. I, too, would have liked a little more info than we're given there. However, that's an issue that I treat the same way whenever I encounter it elsewhere -- just play the game. If I feel good enough with the information given, I'll go for it. If not, I don't. Simply put, I know enough to choose it for where I am -- a fictional setting.

If the choice was between refuse and synthesis, or even control, I'd refuse.

... but this I don't.

You can't go lower than Refuse: you die, then you're either husk'd or reap'd (the Reapers used dead bodies too).

Ya can't sell me there's any option that can possibly go any lower than that. I suppose maybe you could do a little worse yet, but nothing so significantly worse so as to prevent me from rolling the dice at all. That, IMO, is crazy-talk.

[Ryzaki]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Trying to do a smart thing in a dumb way versus just trying to do something dumb? Tough call.

Yes because suicide is such a wonderful way to activate a machine.

Yep. OTOH, it's either die fast or die slow.

Fair enough my preferences for the endings usually goes

Good Destroy > Normal Destroy > Control (since there's no difference between low and high) > Refuse > Bad Destroy> dying on SM > Synthesis.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 mai 2013 - 05:47 .

[masster blaster]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I know we agreed earlier in the thread about what we're willing to do, but I disagree here.

I'm not willing to fundamentally change everything (without knowing what the Catalyst is even meaning or saying) based on what he says he likes.

I actually kind of get that part. I, too, would have liked a little more info than we're given there. However, that's an issue that I treat the same way whenever I encounter it elsewhere -- just play the game. If I feel good enough with the information given, I'll go for it. If not, I don't. Simply put, I know enough to choose it for where I am -- a fictional setting.

If the choice was between refuse and synthesis, or even control, I'd refuse.

... but this I don't.

You can't go lower than Refuse: you die, then you're either husk'd or reap'd (the Reapers used dead bodies too).

Ya can't sell me there's any option that can possibly go any lower than that. I suppose maybe you could do a little worse yet, but nothing so significantly worse so as to prevent me from rolling the dice at all. That, IMO, is crazy-talk.

Yet who influenced you to pick synthesis? The Intellegence. Who said there would be peace in synthesisl The intellegence. Who is the one that wanted synthesis? The Intellegence. Nobody else, except Saren, yet he only wanted synthesis to save his assets, Archer, yet later said it was a bad idea that he should have never started, and that Krogan who joked around saying why can't the galaxy be equal. Only wanted synthesis. You the player, and Shepard were talked into picking synthesis. It worked since you didn't use comman sense, and ask your self " The intellegence has always wanted synthesis. Why should I grant him this wish. He's made countless cycles suffer, and has killed to many organics, and synthetics, yet why should I pick synthesis? Will everyone be the same person they once were? Do we need synthesis to atain peace, or can we figure peace on our own terms? What would my squad mates say? What would Anderson say? What about the husk? Must they live like that forever? Do the organics inside the Reaper need to be here longer? Over all that's what stopped me from picking synthesis. I asked my self all of that, and more, but those are the main things that i thought about.

Now to make it fair I did the same thing for control. What if Shepard slowly starts to loose him, or herself. Shepard is no longer an organic if I pick this. He ,or she would be ruled by logic. That's not what Shepard would do. Why would I pick control? TIM, and the Indoctrinated Protheans wanted to control the Reapers, yet they were Indoctrinated in the end. Only they wanted to control the Reapers, and not Shepard, or the player. Never once would I consider Shepard being the galaxy's protecter because if Shepard used the Reapers as a police force, then the galaxy's free will is gone. Shepard would dictate what the organics, and synthetics should, and should not do. Does the galaxy need to suffer if Shepard forces this on everyone? What would Hackett say? What would my squad members sau? What would Anderson say?

And now for Refuse? If Destroy was not present, then I would pick it. I will not let the galaxy suffer in Control, nor will I let the galaxy be rewritin because the intellegence wanted synthesis. I won't sacrifice everyone's personalitys, their freewill, nor would i just have everyone husk, and Reaper live. Yes I am letting the whole galaxy die, but if I really talked to everyone then they would understand. They all die free men, and woman. Yes more could have turned into husk, and. Maybe a human Reaper was created, but I will not tamper with everyones DNA, and everything they are, nor will I have them subjugated towards Shepard AI's troops. I would rather everyone die, including my Shepard if it ment that the intellegence doesn't get what he want's, nor let my Shepard play god in Control.

Modifié par masster blaster, 22 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[masster blaster]

Now in Destroy the reason why I picked it was because the galaxy choices it's own fate. Yes Shepard is forceing Destroy on the synthetics, but it's not because ya " the player want's to kill all synthetics, and be labled a genocide person", but I already decided if it requiered all organics, and synthetics to die, then I was going to have my Shepard make the ultimate sacrifice to make sure the Intellegence, the husk, and the Reapers are destroyed. I asked myself. If the cycle starts over, then it would be on the galaxy's terms. If war breaks out again, then it's on the galaxy. I must respect the fallen's wishes, and I can't let the Reapers live. Innocent, or not the Reapers do not need to be here anymore. I don't care if they can improve the galaxy, nor do I care if they can rebuild the galaxy faster. Again like I said there is no need for the Reapers. They were created by a flaud logic, forced, or willingly to harvest the galaxy, and make more Reapers. They should have died a long time ago, and they should not live longer. Moreover the husk. My gosh what about them. Their familys either lie dead, harvested, or alive. Dear god the mere thought of them being alive again, or used as a police force is sick, and crazy. They need to die. Not because I hate them, not because I want to, but I have to. If Liara, or anyone Shepard ever cared and loved was turned into a husk I would not want them to live like that forever, nor let them be used by AI Shepard for it's own gain.

Furthermore I asked my self again what would the galaxy say? What would EDI, and the Geth say? When I thought about EDI, and the Geth I know they would understand. EDI would give her life to defend the Normandy crew. She is wiling to stop the Reapers at all cost. The Geth have a chance to that once again they are going to protect the organics. Legion would give his life for Tali. Yes I know Legion would kill Shepard if he was going to let the Quarians kill his people, but after I let the Geth live, and made peace between their creators. I saw that the Geth wanted to help save the galaxy, and build a future for their home planet. The Geth Prime at the FOB said " There would be no futher comprimise with the Reapers..." We gave the Geth a second chance, and now their lives can win the galaxy a future. It's not right, but it happens. You had to make that call to either save the council, the Asendction, and sacrifice them men, and woman of the Alliance, or let the council, and the ascention die, focues all Alliance fleets on Nazara, and take more loses. In ME1. You sent people to their deaths by your order, so it's not much diffrent from killing the Geth and EDI.

Also Hackett is pointing out the fallen. Hackett knows what was required to win this war, and he pays respects towards the dead. EDI is show, as is Legion, so it's not like the organics just forgot about the synthetics, it's just going to take time to build new ones, and move on. The galaxy is free to choice it's own path. To learn, or repeat their past mistakes. I am giving the galaxy a second chance to redeem theirselves.

Modifié par masster blaster, 22 mai 2013 - 01:39 .

[Chashan]

CronoDragoon wrote...

IIRC that tweet was by Gamble who has no input into the story. That's what he believes happens in Refuse.

And this, frankly, puts the lid on that 'comment's' validity/invalidity as serious authorial input. Not to mention the questionable value of a third party-medium used to further tell a video-game's story. They want to let it speak for itself? Then let it.

If 'speculations from everyone' was a objective of their fabulous finale, Refuse is superior in that regard to the other finales 'updated' in the EC: little details given as to what happens next - a 'recording of Liara' she mentioned she'd set up well before the finale, a 'terrible war' with the definition of 'terrible' still being quite flexible.

EC was by and large a step back in that regard - something particularly regrettable regarding the more 'fantastic' Blue and Green, the latter of which I would have hoped they stay the hell away from 'techno-babbling' their way out of it. Only Refusal was an improvement on that front.

Modifié par Chashan, 22 mai 2013 - 02:00 .

[AlanC9]

Chashan wrote...

If 'speculations from everyone' was a objective of their fabulous finale, Refuse is superior in that regard to the other finales 'updated' in the EC: little details given as to what happens next - a 'recording of Liara' she mentioned she'd set up well before the finale, a 'terrible war' with the definition of 'terrible' still being quite flexible.

It's not so much the nature of  our "terrible war" that's important; we know that already.  It's the lack of such a terrible war in the next cycle.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dr. Liara T'soni. Hero of the galaxy.

If you kill her off on the beam run and choose refuse you should get the Critical Mission Failure screen. No stargazer screen. She needs to survive for the next cycle to have a chance.

[xlegionx]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dr. Liara T'soni. Hero of the galaxy.

If you kill her off on the beam run and choose refuse you should get the Critical Mission Failure screen. No stargazer screen. She needs to survive for the next cycle to have a chance.

Wait, don't you already get a Critical Mission Failure screen in Refuse anyway? oh wait, that's just Shep standing around like a ******

[teh DRUMPf!!]

masster blaster wrote...

Yet who influenced you to pick synthesis? The Intellegence. Who said there would be peace in synthesisl The intellegence. Who is the one that wanted synthesis? The Intellegence. Nobody else, except Saren, yet he only wanted synthesis to save his assets, Archer, yet later said it was a bad idea that he should have never started, and that Krogan who joked around saying why can't the galaxy be equal. Only wanted synthesis. You the player, and Shepard were talked into picking synthesis. It worked since you didn't use comman sense, and ask your self " The intellegence has always wanted synthesis. Why should I grant him this wish.

So? I don't "shoot the messenger." That the Intelligence was giving me the information was purely incidental.

Substitue him with anyone else telling me what my final options are and my decision would still stay the same.

In fact, I did a poll on this, asking people if they would change their decision if it were not the Intelligence giving them the information at the end of the game. Guess what? Over 90% said they'd make the same decision regardless.

Here it is, BTW: http://social.biowar...02/polls/37239/.

He's made countless cycles suffer, and has killed to many organics, and synthetics, yet why should I pick synthesis?

If he tells you not to jump off the Citadel and fall to your death, will you do it just to spite him?

Because that's exactly what's going on here -- he's telling you what you can do to save yourself.

He didn't build the Crucible either. Your allies did. You don't have to trust anyone you don't already trust.

Do we need synthesis to atain peace, or can we figure peace on our own terms?

Yes. 

What would my squad mates say? What would Anderson say?

I'm a football guy. I once heard someone say, of sports management: "if you (the team owner and/or manager) start listening to the fans, pretty soon you'll be sitting in the stands with them." That means, they'll eventually be running the team, not you (and you'll likely be fired after letting unqualified opinions dominate the way you do things).

Same is true of your squad's opinions. They may raise good ideas and concerns from time to time and are worth listening to, but that's where it starts and ends. There's a reason why you're in charge, and they are not!

The only people on my squad I see being qualified at all are Garrus and *maybe* Kaidan. I could respect their opinions, but still I am my own man. Also, I'm not sold on Anderson being someone I should follow. He's a good friend, but leadership means a hell of a lot more than friendship. You can be a callous a-hole and still be a good leader.

What about the husk? Must they live like that forever? Do the organics inside the Reaper need to be here longer?

I reject the interpretation that husks are living on in Sync, not past that one cutscene. They're just too damaged to live for very long without continued Reaper control of them. None of the Sync slides show husks around, either, even though they do show Reapers around. I think there's no real use for them, and they all get discarded over time -- JMO.

I don't think everyone uploaded to the Reaper is indivudally conscious, either. I think it is one mind based on all of them combined -- a new "person" if you will. I used to think the opposite, but people on here have made me rethink that.

And now for Refuse? If Destroy was not present, then I would pick it. I will not let the galaxy suffer in Control,

Dude, really, that makes 0 logical sense.

If you choose Control, there is a non-zero chance that the galaxy will never see the cycle or anything like it again.

In Refuse, you start from continuing the cycle without any good backup plan to end it. You also cannot know without metagaming that the next cycle is going to break free -- Liara's plan isn't remotely fool-proof.

If Refuse goes bad (which it obviously is going to) then everyone you know gets screwed. If Control goes bad, at least you bought the galaxy a little time before it did, and maybe they secretly will have found a way to destroy the Reapers before it does. Hell, they built the Crucible, so an attempt at destroying the Reapers would not be farfetched.

Yes I am letting the whole galaxy die, but if I really talked to everyone then they would understand. They all die free men, and woman.

I would not call being husk'd or destructively-uploaded "dying free."

If I Sync'd everyone, and people decided they didn't like it and would rather commit suicide than live ... THAT would be closer to "dying free" than how they die in Refuse.

Yes more could have turned into husk, and. Maybe a human Reaper was created, but I will not tamper with everyones DNA, and everything they are, nor will I have them subjugated towards Shepard AI's troops.

Instead, it's better to let the Reapers tamper with their entire bodies and subjugate them as zombie/AI minions?


Oh, and BTW, to address your earlier post...

masster blaster wrote...

Freedom is gone. 
Everyone is rewritin, and no longer the people they once were.
Husk are alive, which is not good because cannibals, and brutes can no longer be who they once were, nor is all the husk armys.
The Reapers are free. If Harbinger is free. A Leviathan race inside Harbinger.....bad things.
You destroyed the laws of evolution.
You kept the dead alive who should have died a long time ago.
You basically gave the intellegence what it always wanted, despite all the worngs not to trust the reapers, and understand them from so many organics, and synthetics alike.
You played god, and created new life which should not be forced on everyone. Yes i know endings are forced, but this...hell no. This crosses the line of force.

This analysis is exaggerated, BUT, even if it were all 100% true... it would still be a better ending than Refuse!! 

[Chashan]

AlanC9 wrote...

Chashan wrote...

If 'speculations from everyone' was a objective of their fabulous finale, Refuse is superior in that regard to the other finales 'updated' in the EC: little details given as to what happens next - a 'recording of Liara' she mentioned she'd set up well before the finale, a 'terrible war' with the definition of 'terrible' still being quite flexible.

It's not so much the nature of  our "terrible war" that's important; we know that already.  It's the lack of such a terrible war in the next cycle.

Problem being? One is at liberty to think the next cycle has enough to go on to prepare for the Reapers' return well in advance. By which means? Conventional? Repurposing the Crucible to power up a shoop-da-whoop cannon of doom - hey, it is merely a power-source after all, right?

The civilizations of the current cycle may come to an end - despite the thing's assurances that this, as part of its 'final solution', does not work any longer - but that in no way means the next has to put up with its antics again.

[AlanC9]

If it makes you feel better, why not? Bio wisely let people headcanon that sort of thing. I thought that tweet was a mistake. Even if that's what actually happened, why make people feel bad?