360 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

It was added in because that is what people wanted. Unfortunately bioware writers also wrote that you failed if you chose that option because then everyone would choose it because everyone hates all the other options given.

A lot of people thought it was a passive agressive jab, and it is hard to take it any other way. But if you write an option that is clearly way better than the others, i guess you have to make it the one that fails.

What would be the alternative in the refuse scenario?

Conventional victory? A logic loop? For the Catalyst to say "okay" and scurry away?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Samtheman63 wrote...

to try and make him pick synthesis

Why does the catalyst want shepard to pick synthesis?

[dreamgazer]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

to try and make him pick synthesis

Why does the catalyst want shepard to pick synthesis?

Speculations.

Is it to make our worlds their laboratories? Or, because they have organic life's best interest in mind?

[Samtheman63]

because he is warped and thinks that is the best solution to the "conflict"

i'm not convinced the catalyst is lying, i'm convinced is he wrong

Modifié par Samtheman63, 19 mai 2013 - 09:14 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

to try and make him pick synthesis

Why does the catalyst want shepard to pick synthesis?

Because it's the "ideal solution"

[Cainhurst Crow]

dreamgazer wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

to try and make him pick synthesis

Why does the catalyst want shepard to pick synthesis?

Speculations.

Is it to make our worlds their laboratories? Or, because they have organic life's best interest in mind?

Why would they change the way they are making the worlds laboratories already? Why alter it so that all the worlds become exactly the same and no longer suited for experimentation? Why change their definition of what they feel is best for organic life? Why need shepard at all if you could just use TIM and his cybernetic upgrades as well?

[Cainhurst Crow]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

to try and make him pick synthesis

Why does the catalyst want shepard to pick synthesis?

Because it's the "ideal solution"

But what makes it the ideal solution to the catalyst?

Why need shepard to pick it?

Why fight the crucible's docking if it wanted to have it this whole time?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 mai 2013 - 09:18 .

[Eryri]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Eain wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

I've never gotten this logic. The Catalyst stands to gain everything. Reapers lie. Whenever they're not busy turning their victims into grey goo or huskifying them, they lie and manipulate and scheme. For Shepard to believe a word the Reaper Overlord tells her is to go against everything she knows about Reapers.

+∞

But why have shepard come to the chamber at all?

So as to watch and laugh as Shepard immolates himself on a giant bug-zapper for all he knows. Shepard has no reason to believe that the chamber is even the right place to be in to activate the Crucible. 

[AlexMBrennan]

Why fight the crucible's docking if it wanted to have it this whole time?

You are assuming that Godchild has direct control over the Reaper forces which is not necessarily true

[Isaidlunch]

The Catalyst is clearly not in control of the situation. Why else would it allow Shepard to pick Destroy and/or Control if Synthesis is its main goal? If the Catalyst wasn't being controlled by the Crucible it could easily say "Synthesis or die!" or not even appear if the Crucible is too damaged.

[David7204]

Nonsense. The Catalyst is absolutely in control of the situation, and it offers Shepard Destroy freely and willingly. The whole purpose of the exchange is that the Catalyst is handing the choice over to Shepar, because he realizes Shepard knows or understands something he doesn't. 

Modifié par David7204, 19 mai 2013 - 09:32 .

[KaiserShep]

Eain wrote...

Picking a colour is an accidental mission success by a Shepard who believes the Reaper Overlord on a whim and not only commits suicide because he tells her its a good idea but also has no problem potentially sabotaging parts of the Crucible in the process.

 To be fair, the destroy option is actually discouraged by the catalyst. Only synthesis is labeled ideal. I wouldn't say that any of this is accidental though. It's a gamble, but its not the same. 

[KaiserShep]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Why fight the crucible's docking if it wanted to have it this whole time?

You are assuming that Godchild has direct control over the Reaper forces which is not necessarily true

The catalyst claims that the crucible changed it. It seems reasonable to assume that it tried to resist with the reapers, but failed, and now that it was joined with it, was effectively overridden. At least this is my take on it. Look at the keepers. They were designed to work against everyone, but were overridden by the protheans. The crucible was basically made to turn the reapers technology against them. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 mai 2013 - 09:39 .

[TheProtheans]

David7204 wrote...

Nonsense. The Catalyst is absolutely in control of the situation, and it offers Shepard Destroy freely and willingly. The whole purpose of the exchange is that the Catalyst is handing the choice over to Shepar, because he realizes Shepard knows or understands something he doesn't. 

That is a lot of assumptions. 

[Astartes Marine]

The speech was the best part of it in my opinion.  It was a good speech, and sounded exactly like something Shepard would actually say instead of going with the flow.

iakus wrote...
It's Bioware trolling the players:

"Don't like our endings? Frak you! Rocks fall! Everyone dies!"

Oh holy hell it all makes sense now!  Hudson and/or Walters, damn whichever of you did it.

Ryzaki wrote...
You getting it if you dare shoot at their starbrat is pretty telling.

Indeed...I sense that some butthurt from the creator of the catalyst character.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 19 mai 2013 - 09:40 .

[Isaidlunch]

David7204 wrote...

Nonsense. The Catalyst is absolutely in control of the situation, and it offers Shepard Destroy freely and willingly. The whole purpose of the exchange is that the Catalyst is handing the choice over to Shepar, because he realizes Shepard knows or understands something he doesn't. 

I'm sorry, but what on earth would Shepard know that the Catalyst doesn't? And why would an AI that is programmed to end conflict between organics and synthetics not force him/her to pick an option that does exactly that?

I seriously doubt an all-mighty AI would let a human choose the fate of the galaxy just because he/she is "special" and "knows something he doesn't".

[In Exile]

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

Shepard's death would be an obvious thing to gain. 

[Sashimi_taco]

dreamgazer wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

It was added in because that is what people wanted. Unfortunately bioware writers also wrote that you failed if you chose that option because then everyone would choose it because everyone hates all the other options given.

A lot of people thought it was a passive agressive jab, and it is hard to take it any other way. But if you write an option that is clearly way better than the others, i guess you have to make it the one that fails.

What would be the alternative in the refuse scenario?

Conventional victory? A logic loop? For the Catalyst to say "okay" and scurry away?

I would have personally liked refuse to be something along the lines of a devistating loss in the galaxy, but still just barely winning. I hate that i have to sacrifice humanity/what makes sentient being who they are in order to win a war. You don't always have to do that in order to win a war, and the people who do do that are war criminals. If the message of the ME3 endinds is that being a war criminal is the only way to win, then that is pretty gross. 

Personally I would have liked it if the reapers themselves somehow were able to speak up for themselves for a moment rather than have the star kid be controlling them. If i were the reapers (past cycles that had being tortured, murdered, and enslaved) I would have found a way to speak up at that moment and beg for whatever relief they could get. If i was an eternal being having their free will taken away and had the memories of the species I once was, it would be unending agony. Sitting in dark space, forced to murder and bring nothing but pain to the galaxy. My only solice is the brainwashing/mind control that is forced upon me. 

Part of the reason I pick destroy. If i was a reaper, I would beg for death. I like to imagine in my head canon that when the star child is trying to convince you to either become the new slave master, or force the whole galaxy to be like the reapers, the reapers have a moment of rebellion and are able to speak for themselves. They give the option for destroy, begging for the release of death. The star kid argues and the reapers argue their points. Paragon is destroy and renegade is control. Both end the war and they represent both types of shepards. 

[Eain]

David7204 wrote...

Eain wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

I've never gotten this logic. The Catalyst stands to gain everything. Reapers lie. Whenever they're not busy turning their victims into grey goo or huskifying them, they lie and manipulate and scheme. For Shepard to believe a word the Reaper Overlord tells her is to go against everything she knows about Reapers.

So what do you propose the Catalyst stands to gain?

Survival. Better yet, imminent victory. Fulfilling the mission it was made for. I would be highly suspicious of activating any weapon that the Reaper Overlord appears to know better than I do. The Crucible was constructed without anyone knowing what exactly it was supposed to do, and throughout the process it kept missing one key component. Turns out that component is the Reaper Overlord himself.

Really?

You're going to try to defeat the Reapers with a weapon that requires the Reaper Overlord to function? If we had any way of subjugating it then... perhaps. But the Catalyst appears quite eager to explain every little detail, each of them conveniently involving your death + sabotage.

I mean, this situation calls for corporate manager guy. "Yeeeaaah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you not to use that weapon."

Modifié par Eain, 19 mai 2013 - 09:53 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

TheProtheans wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Nonsense. The Catalyst is absolutely in control of the situation, and it offers Shepard Destroy freely and willingly. The whole purpose of the exchange is that the Catalyst is handing the choice over to Shepar, because he realizes Shepard knows or understands something he doesn't. 

That is a lot of assumptions. 

It really is, though to be completely honest, the game doesn't leave us with a lot of other options.

I don't think the Catalyst wants you to choose Destroy. I think he wants you to choose Synthesis. The option is there because I believe the Catalyst was not designed to omit the truth or lie. It's telling you that you can destroy, since the Crucible has made the option possible. Same with control. 

I think the destroy option is the option that the Crucible was designed for, though I believe the Catalyst is capable of altering or adapting the Citadel to activate the Crucible in a different manner, which is how Synthesis and Control are possible. I think the real key to the options of Synthesis and Control come from the Citadel, rather than the Crucible.

I think he wants you to choose synthesis because from his perspective, it's the best option and he believes that an organic such as Shepard would understand. The problem is, he never explains to you his perspective or his formula for the supposed problem that he gives you. I don't trust his perspective on synthesis or control, since they don't sound logical or possible. Not that I'd choose those options anyway. 

I also don't see him as terribly sophisticated of a machine. He's not able to override the core logic error or inflect outer perspectives that are different to his own in his calculations and judgement. I think he's even less intelligent or sophisticated than the Reapers. But as the master control unit for them, he doesn't have to be. 

Destroy is the only thing I trust him with since it's kind of hard to mess up the explanation for the intended purpose of the Crucible.

All of this is of course an assumption on my part. My idea for explaining it.

Plus, since he is who he is, I'm not going to completely trust him.

It's not hard to see where people are coming from with their distrust of him: How do I know that shooting a pipe will activate the Crucible? That seems like a pretty odd way to activate something. How do I know he isn't just trying to get me to commit suicide in some elaborate manner? 

BW didn't really build up too much for the Catalyst to really allow me to engender much trust for it. I can understand how people would see how this being is trustworthy, a being who is the leader of the race of machines that have, from your perspective, only tried to annihilate, harvest, or control you and show you nothing but hostility up to this point. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 19 mai 2013 - 10:00 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Eain wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Eain wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

I've never gotten this logic. The Catalyst stands to gain everything. Reapers lie. Whenever they're not busy turning their victims into grey goo or huskifying them, they lie and manipulate and scheme. For Shepard to believe a word the Reaper Overlord tells her is to go against everything she knows about Reapers.

So what do you propose the Catalyst stands to gain?

Survival. Better yet, imminent victory. Fulfilling the mission it was made for. I would be highly suspicious of activating any weapon that the Reaper Overlord appears to know better than I do. The Crucible was constructed without anyone knowing what exactly it was supposed to do, and throughout the process it kept missing one key component. Turns out that component is the Reaper Overlord himself.

Really?

You're going to try to defeat the Reapers with a weapon that requires the Reaper Overlord to function? If we had any way of subjugating it then... perhaps. But the Catalyst appears quite eager to explain every little detail, each of them conveniently involving your death + sabotage.

I mean, this situation calls for corporate manager guy. "Yeeeaaah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you not to use that weapon."

Shepard can even call into question the safety of using is earlier in the game. "The reapers have forced our hand."  It makes no sense for it to need the Reaper leader to function, because there is literally no way the protheans (or any othe race) would have been able to build the device to function with something they didn't know existed.

[GHNR]

In Exile wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

Shepard's death would be an obvious thing to gain. 

Then he would've just left him to bleed out in the chamber he was in with Harper and Anderson.

[Eain]

GHNR wrote...

In Exile wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

Shepard's death would be an obvious thing to gain. 

Then he would've just left him to bleed out in the chamber he was in with Harper and Anderson.

Not necessarily. Vendetta already explained on Thessia how the cycle is more than just a 50.000 year routine of annihilation. Many elements also overlap, such as each cycle having a Cerberus of its own.

What if each cycle (or each cycle that proceeds outside the standard invasion plan, if you prefer) also has a Shepard of its own, and each cycle that Shepard fights their way up to meet the Reaper Overlord and there is conned into suicide and self sacrifice to not only power the Crucible (surprise surprise, the missing component is actually a human life) but also deliver the Reapers instant victory?

"But why would the Reapers go to such lengths when they have the power to win anyway?" I hear you ask.

The answer to that is simple: they don't -need- the Crucible's activation. It's just convenient. Easy. They're machines. They've calculated all the possibilities. Covered each angle. Even if one doesn't play out, the others do.

[BansheeOwnage]

Eain wrote...

GHNR wrote...

In Exile wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There's nothing the Catalyst stands to gain by lying.

Shepard's death would be an obvious thing to gain. 

Then he would've just left him to bleed out in the chamber he was in with Harper and Anderson.

Not necessarily. Vendetta already explained on Thessia how the cycle is more than just a 50.000 year routine of annihilation. Many elements also overlap, such as each cycle having a Cerberus of its own.

What if each cycle (or each cycle that proceeds outside the standard invasion plan, if you prefer) also has a Shepard of its own, and each cycle that Shepard fights their way up to meet the Reaper Overlord and there is conned into suicide and self sacrifice to not only power the Crucible (surprise surprise, the missing component is actually a human life) but also deliver the Reapers instant victory?

"But why would the Reapers go to such lengths when they have the power to win anyway?" I hear you ask.

The answer to that is simple: they don't -need- the Crucible's activation. It's just convenient. Easy. They're machines. They've calculated all the possibilities. Covered each angle. Even if one doesn't play out, the others do.

Interesting, I like it. I've toyed with the idea of each cycle having a "Shepard" and using that as the governing consciousness of each reaper. Javik was the Shepard of his cycle, but they never got him, so the prothean reaper failed.

[Eain]

Oh that's actually very nice, haha. I like it.

To support that theory: the moment Shepard arrives at the Citadel she discovers its been turned into a body processing facility. What if all the Reapers now need is a mind to govern the Reaper about to be made from them? And what if the Crucible's the way to translate that mind into Reaper code while simultaneously synthesising it with the biomass of the processed and storing it to be put into a Reaper frame? After all, that's sort of the very definition of the word crucible.

Modifié par Eain, 19 mai 2013 - 10:29 .