174 réponses à ce sujet

[xlegionx]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

Condescension at its finest.

And as I've said before, you're making the assumption that the mind of a Reaper is the same as the mind of the harvested species. But that isn't the case. the organics were liquified, then that material/goo was used as the base component for a machine/AI with the programming to harvest organic life. So really they are not victims. They are artificial constructs of the Catalyst, who uses them to implement its solution.

There is no mind to control, because they aren't organic

Modifié par xlegionx, 21 mai 2013 - 02:06 .

[KingZayd]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Well, it's not just the Geth you're killing, but the Reapers too. The Reapers are just slaves of the Catalyst, and as such innocent of all crimes committed. Then you're killing EDI, who's been completely loyal to you for two games. Oh! And Joker, Joker's likely going to suicide.

See? I can't be responsible for that. So I'd choose Control or Synthesis.

The Reapers were never nice people. It's not just mind control. They are that way because they were made that way. The personalities that are there of those of unrepentant killers. There is no underlying nice personality underneath  as there may have been with someone who was mindcontrolled after they'd been around for a while.  The nice guy never existed in the first place. 

OK. Maybe if we're lucky, and the other options not only remove the Starchild's control but also delete the existing personalities (which would mean you are effectively killing those Reapers anyway), then given time new nicer personalities MIGHT arise. But there are no guarantees, and I don't see the point in risking a galaxy for either people as horrible as the Reapers we know, or those people that don't even exist yet, and may never exist anyway.

As for Joker "probably" killing himself, I'm not convinced. What makes you think he can't possibly live without EDI? 
Anyway, his life does not outweigh all the lives in the galaxy, never mind his love-life.

Also, it's interesting that you're against killing the Reapers,  but you don't object to enslaving them?

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2013 - 02:14 .

[Galbrant]

There is no evidence to support that the Reapers are victims. It's like saying the T-800's are slaves to Skynet. They are not. They are build to kill. They are program to harvest the moment they are activated. The people who were harvested to make those monsters are dead the moment they were melted. The Reapers are genocidal monstrosities only to serve some twisted misguided purpose of harvesting all organic life and bending other synthetics to their will to save organics.

The only real victims in Destroy are the Geth, and EDI. The ones who actually show they can be reason with and actually go out their way to show Shepard time and again that they can co-exist with organics.

Now I don't blame those who killed Legion and the Geth since Legion suddenly contradict himself at Rannoch wanting to use the Reaper code when it was blatantly against his belief in ME2.

Me I just handwave it as garbage writing and Legion was in a pickle so he took the desperate action.

[Stormcutter]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

And let me be even more clear.

A. Reaper. No. Longer. Has. Any. Real. Connection. To. What. It. Was.

Paragon Shepard says it best: The species that compose the Reapers are long dead. The Reapers are glorified husks.

They aren't rape victims. They're corpses, raised to harvest and kill. The organic material of their previous species reshaped into a new and terrible sentience. Destruction is a mark of respect to the species they were.

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Stormcutter

The point you're missing here is that those Geth could be post-Reaper code upgrade. And the way they speak strongly implies they are. They say 'this one,' implying individuality, rather than using the plural 'we' as Legion did.

Uh, what? The only Geth you hear speak pre-code upload is Legion or the VI. Both of whom have already been upgraded. Killing the rest of them pre-code upgrade has them dying as the not quite complete beings they were since their creation.

Modifié par Stormcutter, 21 mai 2013 - 02:56 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Wow, and I thought your "people who kill the geth are all real-life Nazis" speech was bad.

And here I thought it impossible for Auld Wulf to get more condescending. Silly me.

[Stormcutter]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Wow, and I thought your "people who kill the geth are all real-life Nazis" speech was bad.

And here I thought it impossible for Auld Wulf to get more condescending. Silly me.

Is he always this bad?

[Gewehr_fr]

Taking down a zombie / husk / tranquil is an act of mercy.

I don't know about you but if members of my family / friends were turned into husks reaper ground units, I wouldn't want to keep them around on a leash (control), nor leave them in this state (synthesis), they would have to be put down (destroy). Unlike rape victims since you're using this example, there's no possible recovery.

I do feel bad for the Geth and EDI who are innocent victims, though arguable for the Geths who choosed to join the reapers, but destroying the reapers is really doing them a favor.

[Seboist]

is Auld Wulf serious or is he somebody's joke alt?

[Dunabar]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

Then why do you keep going on about it? I think you actually like having the argument.

So since you think you can do it to everyone else, lets give you a little taste of your own poison.

I...PROUDLY...DESTROY...THE...REAPERS.
GET...THE...HELL...OVER...YOURSELF...AND...JUST...ACCEPT...THAT...NOT...EVERYONE...AGREES...WITH...YOU.

Now if you will pardon me, I will go destroy the Reapers again, and this time I think I will do it to the song "For whom the bells toll".

PS: If destroying the reapers causes anyone to lose sleep, sorry (not really) zero f***s to be given out.

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

is Auld Wulf serious or is he somebody's joke alt?

It's more amusing to assume that it's a real account, so I go with that.

[AresKeith]

Did Wulf drink all of Seival's Blue and Green kool-aid

[dreamgazer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

While we're on the subject of Auld Wulf, I think he and David7204 would make a great couple.

A debate between them?

[Ravensword]

I think Auld Wolf, Seival, and David make a great threesome. All you fanfic writers out there should start shipping those three right now.

[KaiserShep]

The reapers are only victims in head-canon. It jiggers the imagination that one would even go so far as to use the phrase rape victim to describe them. Moral gymnastics should be an Olympic sport.

[Dunabar]

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers are only victims in head-canon. It jiggers the imagination that one would even go so far as to use the phrase rape victim to describe them. Moral gymnastics should be an Olympic sport.

With Auld Wulf, anything is possible.

[Kataphrut94]

In all fairness to Mr Wulf (the apparent Michael Moore of the pro-synthetics argument), he does raise the point that people's eagerness to Destroy and rejection of the alternatives has created a lot of unnecessary resentment towards the geth, and EDI to a lesser extent. It's the classic case of attempting to distance one's self to avoid emotional connection, made easy in this case by the recipients being emotionally distant synthetics themselves.

What I find objectionable is how some of the arguments people have used to justify their resentment have fallen on the far side of grudging bias. The obvious example is the notion that the geth accepting the Reaper code at the end somehow makes them evil or irredeemable. I'd like to see a basis for that which goes beyond 'Reaper tech = baaad'. Certainly when we see them after the upgrade they have not undergone any dramatic degradation. They will vow to oppose the Old Machines in full, and either express eagerness to restore the quarians on Rannoch or express regret over being forced to kill them. This is not evidence that suggests what they did has made them wrong, and to argue otherwise is much like that individual who insisted my ControlShepard will go back to genocide because reasons- baseless paranoia, mired in wishful thinking.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Auld Wulf wrote...
*snip*

Your poor analogy not withstanding, you do realize some people have equated synthesis to rape over the past year, do you really want to risk opening that door?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 mai 2013 - 03:51 .

[S.A.K]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

What are you smoking mate? Seems like some powerful sh!t.

[dreamgazer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...
*snip*

Your poor analogy not withstanding, you do realize some people have equated synthesis to rape over the past year, do you really want to risk opening that door?

That's Ethics 201. Might be a little high-level.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

Didn't read. Come back when you learned the proper use of punctuation.

[Seboist]

Ravensword wrote...

I think Auld Wolf, Seival, and David make a great threesome. All you fanfic writers out there should start shipping those three right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're the same person.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ravensword wrote...

I think Auld Wolf, Seival, and David make a great threesome. All you fanfic writers out there should start shipping those three right now.

Did the thought of it inspire you to choose that avatar?