174 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

Let me say this very slowly.

Reapers:

Made.... from.... metal.... computer.... parts.... and.... dead.... people. Emphasis.... on.... dead. 

Designed.... to..... kill.... and.... mutilate.... organic.... life.

Built.... to.... kill.... and.... mutilate.... organic.... life.

Programmed.... to.... kill.... indoctrinate..... and.... mutilate.... organic.... life.

Comparing.... them.... to.... rape.... victims.... is.... an.... insult.... to.... women.

This is grow a brain 101.

[Iakus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

What? The races the Reapers were built from are innocent victims. The Reapers themselves are monsters [...]

Let ... me ... say ... this ... very ... slowly.

Yes ... the ... Reapers ... exist ... because ... the ... Catalyst ... made ... them.

The ... Catalyst ... also ... controls ... their ... minds.

Anything ... a ... Reaper ... does ... is ... not ... of ... free ... will.

A ... mind ... controlled ... entity ... is ... a ... victim.

Just ... because ... you ... don't ... find ... the ... victim ... visually ... attractive ... that ... doesn't ... mean ... they're ... not ... victims.

The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

That ... would ... be ... like ... killing ... a ... rape ... victim ... because ... they ... were ... raped.

Read. Think carefully. Then respond. I'm tired of having this argument. If the victim was more familiar, more human, then I'm sure you'd be white knighting it up.

This is basic ethics. Seriously, this is ethics 101.

I think paragon SHep says it best:

[Megaton_Hope]

Auld Wulf wrote...
The ... Reapers ... are ... still ... victims ... of ... what ... was ... done ... to ... them.

They ... deserve ... the  ... right ... to ... choose ... for ... themselves.

It's ... not ... fair ... to ... kill ... them ... simply ... because ... you ... find ... their ... current ... state ... unappealilng.

I'm not killing them because their current state is unappealing, I'm killing them because their current state is busily committing the mass murder of trillions of lives, and I have no better alternatives to protect galactic civilization from their destructive rampage.

If I had the option to merely destroy the Catalyst, free the minds-who-became-Reapers (assuming there is such a thing, it never really came up in the games), and spare the rest of life that way, I'd think about it. Although the simultaneous genocide makes it relatively undesirable, with all the unknowns Shepard has to account for in making this decision.

[Dunabar]

iakus wrote...

I think paragon SHep says it best:

I see your paragon and raise you a renegade.

[Stormcutter]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

In all fairness to Mr Wulf (the apparent Michael Moore of the pro-synthetics argument), he does raise the point that people's eagerness to Destroy and rejection of the alternatives has created a lot of unnecessary resentment towards the geth, and EDI to a lesser extent. It's the classic case of attempting to distance one's self to avoid emotional connection, made easy in this case by the recipients being emotionally distant synthetics themselves.

What I find objectionable is how some of the arguments people have used to justify their resentment have fallen on the far side of grudging bias. The obvious example is the notion that the geth accepting the Reaper code at the end somehow makes them evil or irredeemable. I'd like to see a basis for that which goes beyond 'Reaper tech = baaad'. Certainly when we see them after the upgrade they have not undergone any dramatic degradation. They will vow to oppose the Old Machines in full, and either express eagerness to restore the quarians on Rannoch or express regret over being forced to kill them. This is not evidence that suggests what they did has made them wrong, and to argue otherwise is much like that individual who insisted my ControlShepard will go back to genocide because reasons- baseless paranoia, mired in wishful thinking.

From a meta-perspective, I can agree with this. The Geth aren't deserving of death. My main moral objection to them is that they let the Heretics go free. They had to have known that would not work out well for any organic life and they still let millions of programs go to unleash Reaper party time. But that still doesn't justify their destruction right off the bat, even when combined with the fact that they sold out their own free will for survival, when push came to shove.

It's just that Destroy is the ending that pretty much all other life in the galaxy wants. It's an end to the cycle, once and for all and a clear win. Synthesis is just too much, too soon and setting myself up as a dictator of the galaxy, even a benevolent one, is not something I'm willing to do.

So the Geth's destruction is a sacrifice. An unpleasant one. That's why I took them out on Rannoch, despite having the option ot make peace. End it there. A clean break.

In-universe, there's tons of reasons not to entirely trust the Geth. Legion suddenly developing the ability to lie, right after eating Reaper code. Legion's lack of hesitation in saving the Consensus over the Quarians (note that Tali doesn't try to physically stop Legion and sounds more desperate then aggressive when Legion uploads the code). The fact that the Geth were willing to enslave themselves for survival.

And most importantly, the risk that they might fall back under Reaper control. Even their AI growth, while indicative of life, is indicative of life developing down the Reapers path. That could throw a lot of doubt on them. That's how I roleplayed it. Shepard started letting the Geth upload the code, but when the Quarian's didn't stop by their own will and Legion kept going, all the doubts about the Geth bubbled to the surface.

Either way, best to just end it on Rannoch if you're going for the Destroy ending.

Modifié par Stormcutter, 21 mai 2013 - 03:45 .

[Wayning_Star]

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

[dreamgazer]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

[Wayning_Star]

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2013 - 01:36 .

[Wayning_Star]

Just because you are an organic being of sorts, doesn't necessarily mean that you can 'rape' the synthetic/organic construct reaperships because that is what they are. Besides, what actual 'good' would come of punished reaper constructs? What 'value' do they apply to their world view? It would appear that many want their cake(destroyed reaps) and eat it too (reaper technology finely controlled of course, at prescribed beck and call of the 'select' few.)

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Just because you are an organic being of sorts, doesn't necessarily mean that you can 'rape' the synthetic/organic construct reaperships because that is what they are. Besides, what actual 'good' would come of punished reaper constructs? What 'value' do they apply to their world view? It would appear that many want their cake(destroyed reaps) and eat it too (reaper technology finely controlled of course, at prescribed beck and call of the 'select' few.)

Just destroy them. The Reapers don't add any value. We can salvage tech from their corpses anyway.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Just because you are an organic being of sorts, doesn't necessarily mean that you can 'rape' the synthetic/organic construct reaperships because that is what they are. Besides, what actual 'good' would come of punished reaper constructs? What 'value' do they apply to their world view? It would appear that many want their cake(destroyed reaps) and eat it too (reaper technology finely controlled of course, at prescribed beck and call of the 'select' few.)

Just destroy them. The Reapers don't add any value. We can salvage tech from their corpses anyway.

mmmmmm, reaper tech.. (why would the catalyst even build a citadel anyway? oh wait...never mind)

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

But you can eliminate the Reapers.. there's this magic tube on the Citadel.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

But you can eliminate the Reapers.. there's this magic tube on the Citadel.

Yes, fact is the catalyst is rather wordy about what that actually does in reference to chaos, it's(cats) perspective on evolution, technology and synthetics with their intelligent life forms. So what good is done by punishing machines set about by organic intelligence?

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

But you can eliminate the Reapers.. there's this magic tube on the Citadel.

Yes, fact is the catalyst is rather wordy about what that actually does in reference to chaos, it's(cats) perspective on evolution, technology and synthetics with their intelligent life forms. So what good is done by punishing machines set about by organic intelligence?

What good? We don't get killed. people stop dying for the Leviathan's stupidty.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

But you can eliminate the Reapers.. there's this magic tube on the Citadel.

Yes, fact is the catalyst is rather wordy about what that actually does in reference to chaos, it's(cats) perspective on evolution, technology and synthetics with their intelligent life forms. So what good is done by punishing machines set about by organic intelligence?

What good? We don't get killed. people stop dying for the Leviathan's stupidty.

all we have are the star gazer reports of how things works out, they could even be thralls.

[Wayning_Star]

besides, if you destroy, you've used the very evil stuff (so claimed) to do so. Just like the catalyst warns of and the geth quarian dispute reflects the 'ignorance' of why such synthetic intelligent life is created. By organic intelligent life forms that don't actually know why they were created either.

Eventually some beings will have to spiral 'up' that evolutionary ladder. It's inevitable.. or the MEU as is couldn't exist. Bummer?!?

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wonder why organic beings would be concerned about synthetic beings that just learned how to "lie"?

Second nature to organics as far as I know...

Point being ...

the reapers are monsters!!

rofl...


stupid robots taken aback by silly organics wishing to live for ever/make a difference..(then in the endgame, complain about it... You cannot make this stuff up..lol)

complain about what?

I didn't see where we were allowed to live forever. I saw the making  a difference part though. The one where we eliminate the Reapers. Not seen that many people complaining about that aspect of the ending at least,

Shepard being resurrected is OK if it's OK with those who might need stuff like that..

Note: cannot actually eliminated reapers in the MEU, their technology is a trap, with life giving qualities. Only takes a few hundred years for synthetic life to appear, a lot faster than what organics hit the scene with their intellectual goal posts...

But you can eliminate the Reapers.. there's this magic tube on the Citadel.

Yes, fact is the catalyst is rather wordy about what that actually does in reference to chaos, it's(cats) perspective on evolution, technology and synthetics with their intelligent life forms. So what good is done by punishing machines set about by organic intelligence?

What good? We don't get killed. people stop dying for the Leviathan's stupidty.

all we have are the star gazer reports of how things works out, they could even be thralls.

So we MIGHT become thralls vs. we get killed.

Leviathans are weaker than the Reaeper. Still an easy choice.

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2013 - 02:16 .

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

besides, if you destroy, you've used the very evil stuff (so claimed) to do so. Just like the catalyst warns of and the geth quarian dispute reflects the 'ignorance' of why such synthetic intelligent life is created. By organic intelligent life forms that don't actually know why they were created either.

Eventually some beings will have to spiral 'up' that evolutionary ladder. It's inevitable.. or the MEU as is couldn't exist. Bummer?!?

what evil stuff?

[dreamgazer]

Wayning_Star wrote...

all we have are the star gazer reports of how things works out, they could even be thralls.

They could not be human.  

They could be on a planet in another galaxy, who had records of "the Shepard" communicated to them.

They could be in the afterlife, discussing a major event in existence's history before some form of reincarnation.

Blah blah blah. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 21 mai 2013 - 02:37 .

[Stormcutter]

Wayning_Star wrote...

besides, if you destroy, you've used the very evil stuff (so claimed) to do so. Just like the catalyst warns of and the geth quarian dispute reflects the 'ignorance' of why such synthetic intelligent life is created. By organic intelligent life forms that don't actually know why they were created either.

Eventually some beings will have to spiral 'up' that evolutionary ladder. It's inevitable.. or the MEU as is couldn't exist. Bummer?!?

What is your actual point? In every ending, you're forced to use Reaper tech to actually make a difference. Destroy simply allows you to ensure that no-one will suffer the Reapers again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wayning_Star is a synthesis fan, but he's also a troll. Not a totally bad one, but one you really shouldn't take seriously.

[Stormcutter]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Wayning_Star is a synthesis fan, but he's also a troll. Not a totally bad one, but one you really shouldn't take seriously.

Ah, I thought so. It was almost impossible to extract any actual coherent, consistent message from his writing, so I figured he was either trolling, or twelve years old.

[Wayning_Star]

dreamgazer wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

all we have are the star gazer reports of how things works out, they could even be thralls.

They could not be human.  

They could be on a planet in another galaxy, who had records of "the Shepard" communicated to them.

They could be in Heaven, discussing a major event in existence's history.

Blah blah blah. 

they're talking about some mythical person, a legend of sorts staving off the end of the MEU, or at the very least contributing to that end. But if we actually 'listen' to the catalysts observations regarding destruction of intelligent life forms in the MEU, that IS the basis of chaos. This is some kind of game story absolute, as the MEU is founded with and ON this.

The ONLY way to know that you're not permitting the MEU being subjected to the Leviathan again is?  (that being without indoctrination permitted within the MEU by "anyone" or any 'thing'.)

Stop blaming the techs for being techs/technological, even if sentient/sapient, would probably be the best bet. Just say'n