129 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

If so, it'll do no long-term harm.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

If so, it'll do no long-term harm.

Because that's the reasoning of the Qun? It's okay because of no long term harm.  The Tal Vashoth, really whatever floats your boat, they're no longer part of the Qun. But, the Qunari? No. Unless Gaider plans to crap all over the previous lore that's been placed down.

[CaptainBlackGold]

While this thread seems destined to be derailed I think the OP actually has an interesting point and one that could lead to fascinating explorations of the lore. We know that the Qun now has followers from different "races." And we know that the Qunari are pragmatists and utilitarian in their underlying morality. Surely, some experiments have been done in cross-breeding to determine if some new, more utilitarian class might be created?

Furthermore, one supposes that raids and the like might have been conducted on Qunari settlements by various groups. Females might well have been captured. Tevinter seems the kind of society where certain mages might well be interested in conducting various "experiments" on these captives - maybe even creating a "breeding pool" so that they can test various forms of magical attacks. In fact, it might well make an interesting side-quest to uncover such experimentation. It would at least provide a plausible reason why our party might be able to come into contact with horned females.

So the topic has a lot more going for it than merely feeding certain fetishes or fantasies - can "floating cheese wheels" (Mr. G's recommended term for the race of large, horned people) interbreed with humans or elves and what would their offspring be like? Are the horned ones stoic by nature or nurture - could they actually experience romantic love if given the opportunity? Could individuals, once separated from the culture, discover long suppressed emotions or are they biologically incapable of forming the kinds of relationships we think "normal?"

These are all legitimate questions to explore. The writers are to be commended for creating a fantasy race that we want to know more about. And there is nothing inherently wrong with people speculating about this issue.

[Edited for Typos and clarity...]

Modifié par CaptainBlackGold, 20 mai 2013 - 04:14 .

[Sashimi_taco]

billy the squid wrote...



This isn't race mixing, it's species mixing. Hence the genetic pollution and degredation

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

And the Qun doesn't practice "it looks cool" It's eugenics and selective breeding don't work on the basis of "it looks cool"

Are you talking from the point of view of the Qun or of the world as a whole? And even if they had non viable offspring, then that is where the problem would end. 

All the species in the DA universe have different phenotypes at first glance, but overall they are very similar. You have no way of knowing just how different the gentics are (if it even really applies anyway). 

And if they can or cannot, does it matter if someone does end up having a mixed species kid? It really is not going to be the end of any species if a few people end up getting it on. People always have any excuse to why two people can't be together. In the end, it doesn't matter. The Qun are not suddenly going to be making only mixed race kids. 

A cross brand reference i would make is the asari, in which they have pure asari kids. They other species are not dying out because some of them marry asari, they are still extremely well off. 

[billy the squid]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

billy the squid wrote...



This isn't race mixing, it's species mixing. Hence the genetic pollution and degredation

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

And the Qun doesn't practice "it looks cool" It's eugenics and selective breeding don't work on the basis of "it looks cool"

Are you talking from the point of view of the Qun or of the world as a whole? And even if they had non viable offspring, then that is where the problem would end. 

All the species in the DA universe have different phenotypes at first glance, but overall they are very similar. You have no way of knowing just how different the gentics are (if it even really applies anyway). 

And if they can or cannot, does it matter if someone does end up having a mixed species kid? It really is not going to be the end of any species if a few people end up getting it on. People always have any excuse to why two people can't be together. In the end, it doesn't matter. The Qun are not suddenly going to be making only mixed race kids. 

A cross brand reference i would make is the asari, in which they have pure asari kids. They other species are not dying out because some of them marry asari, they are still extremely well off. 

The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding, they don't mix species. The Qun is a pervasive set of values and rules that structures Qunari society. 

The Tal- Vashoth, whatever floats your boat, as I said, they are no longer Qunari and don't adhere to the Qun. 

The whole crossbreeding thing, is a complete misunderstanding of the Qun.

Modifié par billy the squid, 20 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[Blackrising]

While I agree with the people who say that 'breeding' with another species would be going against the Qunari's belief and therefore very unlikely, I think that's what makes it interesting.

To meet that one specific Qunari that harbors doubt about their beliefs. That one Qunari that tells the Qun to screw itself.

After all, aren't the most interesting individuals those that go against tradition?

You can't tell me that there is not one single Qunari who is different.

[Sashimi_taco]

billy the squid wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

billy the squid wrote...



This isn't race mixing, it's species mixing. Hence the genetic pollution and degredation

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

And the Qun doesn't practice "it looks cool" It's eugenics and selective breeding don't work on the basis of "it looks cool"

Are you talking from the point of view of the Qun or of the world as a whole? And even if they had non viable offspring, then that is where the problem would end. 

All the species in the DA universe have different phenotypes at first glance, but overall they are very similar. You have no way of knowing just how different the gentics are (if it even really applies anyway). 

And if they can or cannot, does it matter if someone does end up having a mixed species kid? It really is not going to be the end of any species if a few people end up getting it on. People always have any excuse to why two people can't be together. In the end, it doesn't matter. The Qun are not suddenly going to be making only mixed race kids. 

A cross brand reference i would make is the asari, in which they have pure asari kids. They other species are not dying out because some of them marry asari, they are still extremely well off. 

The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding, they don't mix species. The Qun is a pervasive set of values and rules that structures Qunari society. 

The Tal- Vashoth, whatever floats your boat, as I said, they are no longer Qunari and don't adhere to the Qun. 

The whole crossbreeding thing, is a complete misunderstanding of the Qun.

So you mean people withing the "religion/culture" (as I understand it) would not cross breed, but people within the race/species it is a possibility. 

[billy the squid]

@ Black rising

They would be the Tal-Vashoth or Vashoth then, and not Qunari, even if they are Kossith, as they have abandoned the teachings of the Qun.

Modifié par billy the squid, 20 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding,

Eugenics is selective breeding, but your statement is otherwise true.

they don't mix species.

This you need to provide evidence for. Have any members of the Qunari explicitly stated that they intend to keep the races separate?

"Selective breeding" is just breeding for desirable traits, traits that will strengthen the species. That can mean excluding other races, but it can just as easily mean the exact opposite.

If the Qunari believed that another race possessed a "desirable" trait, they might include that race in their breeding program, specifically in the hopes of spreading that ability among all the Qunari. For instance, dwarves possess several traits that the Qunari might find desirable; a resistance to magic, the ability to handle lyrium safely, an immunity to demonic possession, and they do not produce saarebas.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 mai 2013 - 04:46 .

[billy the squid]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

billy the squid wrote...



This isn't race mixing, it's species mixing. Hence the genetic pollution and degredation

And you should know the issues around genomes, they are often incompatible, while species from the same genetic branch often suffer from sterile offspring.

And the Qun doesn't practice "it looks cool" It's eugenics and selective breeding don't work on the basis of "it looks cool"

Are you talking from the point of view of the Qun or of the world as a whole? And even if they had non viable offspring, then that is where the problem would end. 

All the species in the DA universe have different phenotypes at first glance, but overall they are very similar. You have no way of knowing just how different the gentics are (if it even really applies anyway). 

And if they can or cannot, does it matter if someone does end up having a mixed species kid? It really is not going to be the end of any species if a few people end up getting it on. People always have any excuse to why two people can't be together. In the end, it doesn't matter. The Qun are not suddenly going to be making only mixed race kids. 

A cross brand reference i would make is the asari, in which they have pure asari kids. They other species are not dying out because some of them marry asari, they are still extremely well off. 

The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding, they don't mix species. The Qun is a pervasive set of values and rules that structures Qunari society. 

The Tal- Vashoth, whatever floats your boat, as I said, they are no longer Qunari and don't adhere to the Qun. 

The whole crossbreeding thing, is a complete misunderstanding of the Qun.

So you mean people withing the "religion/culture" (as I understand it) would not cross breed, but people within the race/species it is a possibility. 

Those Kossith ie: the actual species which founded the Qunari state and the Qun as a cultural system of beliefs. Who abandon the Qun become Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth and they are not within the Qun. So, if you wanted to go that way, those would be the options to explore.

Anyone within the Qun or adeheres to is is Qunari, regardless of what species they came from, and there is no indication that inter species, breeding is used, it's stated that they don't as selective breeding is organised and overseen by a branch of the Triumverate. 

[In Exile]

billy the squid wrote...
The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding, they don't mix species. The Qun is a pervasive set of values and rules that structures Qunari society. 

Do we have a source for the not mixing species part of their eugnetics program?

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: While I understand what you mean - there has to be a threshold.

Where does real science not apply? And more importantly "why" does real science not apply to topic X?

Will the kinetic energy of a sword swing heal an opponent?

If you're hungry do you walk through a door?

Without some basis in reality - the story itself is incomprehensible.

The very point of magic is "to meddle with things you're comfortable in your understanding with".

A man throwing a fireball is as ridiculous as being nourished from opening a door - yet it is taken for granted.

Completely ignoring concepts like evolution and genetics is sloppy writing - unless you are creating a fairy tale (take Wonderland, Oz and Neverland as examples - and even they are comprehensible)

[billy the squid]

In Exile wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
The Qunari practice eugenics and selective breeding, they don't mix species. The Qun is a pervasive set of values and rules that structures Qunari society. 

Do we have a source for the not mixing species part of their eugnetics program?

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Tamassrans

From the wiki, the footnote, 4, is from Gaider's discussion on here, lots of interesting info on his explaination of the Qunari.

He's given a fair few details and it would reinforce the whole concept of militant "borg" he came up with, given that they conquer and induct other species into the Qun. Their traits would serve better kept pure, rather than diluted. One species providing a set of advantages the Qunari can use, why dilute it, when you've already incorporated it into Qunari culture.

The whole idea of the Qunari, not as a single species, but as many working as one. "people of the Qun"

Modifié par billy the squid, 20 mai 2013 - 04:57 .

[In Exile]

billy the squid wrote...
http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Tamassrans

From the wiki, the footnote, 4, is from Gaider's discussion on here, lots of interesting info on his explaination of the Qunari.

Thanks! That thread was fascinanting. 

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: While I understand what you mean - there has to be a threshold.

Why?

does real science not apply? And more importantly "why" does real science not apply to topic X?

When approaching a fantasy world, I make no assumptions about what is or is not possible until the narrative tells me.

Will the kinetic energy of a sword swing heal an opponent?

Depends.

If you're hungry do you walk through a door?

Depends.

Without some basis in reality - the story itself is incomprehensible.

Incorrect.

The only thing a story needs in order to be comprehensible is to maintain internal consistency. It need only follow its own rules, not anyone anyone else's.

The very point of magic is "to meddle with things you're comfortable in your understanding with".

"But not any of the things that I arbitrarily decide are 'unbelievable'."

A man throwing a fireball is as ridiculous as being nourished from opening a door - yet it is taken for granted.

Yes. I call that hypocrisy. Also stupidity.

Completely ignoring concepts like evolution and genetics is sloppy writing

Do you realise that virtually all fantasy does this all the time? Tolkien's Middle-Earth, as one prominent example, is the product of intelligent design by a series of powerful beings. Nothing on Middle Earth "evolved" to be that way, it was all created. The exact same goes for the universe of the Chronicles of Narnia. The first book in the series explicitly shows the land of Narnia being created out of nothingness, with the obvious implication (since C.S. Lewis was a devout Christian) that all other worlds, including our own, were created in a similar manner. Terry Pratchett's Discworld series also has a novel that features characters going back in time and meeting the deity who designed and created all living things on their world.

Thedas will likely turn out to be similar. Gaider has already hinted strongly that the reason human/elf pairings create wholly human children is the result of magic. So, at the very least, we know that the possibility exists for magic to tamper with or overrule the 'laws" of genetics in Thedas, and that's generously assuming that genetics have any relevance in Thedas at all.

unless you are creating a fairy tale (take Wonderland, Oz and Neverland as examples - and even they are comprehensible)

Three fantasy worlds created by men who were all born at least a decade prior to Darwin's theories becoming widely accepted scientific fact, and who even then, not being scientists themselves, may have not believed in them at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 mai 2013 - 05:17 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: If your world is intelligently designed - you did not ignore the topics. You answered them.

Saying "magic" to answer everything is just food for dullards.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: If your world is intelligently designed - you did not ignore the topics. You answered them.

Saying "magic" to answer everything is just food for dullards.

Since you clearly don't read fantasy, and don't realise that most fantasy authors devise quite detailed magic systems with rules and limitations, I don't see any point in discussing this topic any further with you.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Qunari/Kossith/whatever we're calling them now

Qunari are followers of the Qun. It's a religious title. The actual race of those bronze skinned giants with horns which are colloquially refered to as "Qunari" are the Kossith.

Vashoth, not kossith. We had an entire thread where basically we debunked the whole kossith thing months ago.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 mai 2013 - 05:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

The only species mixing in Dragon Age should be elves and humans.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 mai 2013 - 05:44 .

[Androme]

Mrhimura wrote...

Androme wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Androme wrote...

What is it with people and this disgusting fascination with race mixing?

Race mixing is an evolutionary advantage, as it weeds out those pesky genetic diseases that almost always reside on recessive genes. And why is this disgusting in any case?

Back to biology class.

Race mixing slows down the evolutionary process and increases the risk for genetic disorder. There is absolutely no advantage for race mixing, and it is disgusting because it's subtle genocide. Every species and race should be preserved.

(Edit, just to clarify, in the DA universe, humans are a ''race'', while in real life, humans are a species, hence why I refer to this as race mixing (qunari + human) instead of mixing species)

My girlfriend's father is black, and her mother is a green eyed blonde. Does that make her a step backwards in evolution?

No, not backward, but it means the evolutionary process that accelerates over times up until the point where evolutionary changes are no longer needed (if such a point even exists, it's currently debated amongst scientists), has halted in its speed, she carries the genes of both her mother and father, and the evolutionary process of their respective races (from their personal genes) are halted because they had a mixed child. English is not my first language so excuse me if I'm not being clear.

Think of it like this (lol):

Generation 5) Evolutionary process has reached 10km/h. Race is pure.
Generation 6) Evolutionary process has reached 11km/h. Race is pure.
Generation 7) Evolutionary process has resetted to 5km/h. Mixed race.

It's not going back, but it's slowing down the evolutionary process, which species can and should go through to survive in the future. Besides this nonsense about people of mixed heritage being more resistant to more diseases is complete bullcrap. And also let's not forget the genocidal aspect of this, which, if you ask me, is the more important one.

Modifié par Androme, 20 mai 2013 - 05:53 .

[Melca36]

filetemo wrote...

 I know we'll probably won't be able to romance a member of the Kossith race in DA3, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened before in the lore. Even maybe regarding famous warriors/personalities in history.

Have this, Bioware writers, happened in the past? Qunari-human? Tal Vashoth-human? or even better: Qunari-human mage?


And in case of breeding, is it even achivable? How does the newborn look like?

P.S. I have not mentioned the possibility of Qunari-Dwarf romance for obvious reasons. But maybe it sounds as ridiculous as a qunari human couple in the ears of the writers.

Maybe you should read World of Thedas Volume One.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Elves and humans produce human looking babies because of how recesive elf traits are.

Dwarf and humans can produce halflings, which humans and dwarves both hate and discriminate against.

Dwarves and elves make sandels and his "enchantment" powers.

So really, the entire lore of dragon age would support that qunari/vashoth and humans could produce children, but what those children would look like, I have no idea. My money's on them coming out like sten and the other bronze skinned hornless qunari.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: And yet, their worlds are remarkably familiar to my own without convoluting every single thing with the word "magic". They decided upon a fantasy threshold that they need not cross to tell a story. Any author who thinks adding more dragons - wizards - or floating castles - or "magic" is what makes a good story - is a hack.

You're correct - I'd never read trash like that.

Not answering questions - and leaving it up to "the mysteries of the world" - is lazy and leads to a forum filled with pointless debates (like this one).  This is not a "detailed magical system".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 mai 2013 - 05:52 .

[Melca36]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Qunari/Kossith/whatever we're calling them now

Qunari are followers of the Qun. It's a religious title. The actual race of those bronze skinned giants with horns which are colloquially refered to as "Qunari" are the Kossith.

Actually David Gaider said awhile back that Kossith are NOT reffered to as Kossith. They are Qunari and they don't even refer to themselves as Kossith

[Androme]

Kossith > ARE < Kossith, they just don't primarily identify themselves with their race first, but their religion, thus they call themselves Qunari and not Kossith, when asked ''what'' or ''who'' they are, but if someone asked a specific question like: ''What race are you?'', then a Kossith would probably answer: Kossith.