48 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

FateNeverEnds wrote...

So a ragdolled enemy is floating by defenseless. Can Geth Rocket Troopers be ragdolled?

"Any" unarmored target can be ragdolled.

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

FateNeverEnds wrote...

So a ragdolled enemy is floating by defenseless. Can Geth Rocket Troopers be ragdolled?

"Any" unarmored target can be ragdolled.

Biotic hammer doesn't care about armour.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

FateNeverEnds wrote...

So a ragdolled enemy is floating by defenseless. Can Geth Rocket Troopers be ragdolled?

"Any" unarmored target can be ragdolled.

Biotic hammer doesn't care about armour.

Well, I do look at ragdolling as different from knocking something down, so we do differ in what we mean by ragdolling something, I guess.

[Reizo Ryuu]

Ragdolling means that the "ragdoll" kicks in, as in the physics system; a knockdown that isn't part of a scripted animation sequence is a ragdoll.
And the third hit of the warlord light melee combo also activates biotic hammer if you didn't know, which knocks enemies away.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Ragdolling means that the "ragdoll" kicks in, as in the physics system; a knockdown that isn't part of a scripted animation sequence is a ragdoll.
And the third hit of the warlord light melee combo also activates biotic hammer if you didn't know, which knocks enemies away.

The key difference for me is whether the character affected appears weightless - that is it collapses to the floor (as if it is suddenly devoid of structure, as in all the bones in its body suddenly vanished), or it appears as if gravity ceases to exist for it, so that it floats. These are what I look at as ragdolling.

A knockdown (in my opinion) doesn't fit into either of these descriptions. It is as though the character has been struck with enough "force" for it be knocked off its feet (if the force were any lesser, it'd have been simply staggered). The "force" component appears to be the key difference here.

EDIT: A small clarification: Force could also affect something that is ragdolled. Meaning that let's say something has been pulled, then if someone uses a throw, the character would still be affected by force. But pull causes a ragdoll and not a knockdown.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 20 mai 2013 - 04:43 .

[FateNeverEnds]

If they can be ragdolled why on earth do they keep on firing their dem rockets to my face when skyhigh?

[MichaelFinnegan]

FateNeverEnds wrote...

If they can be ragdolled why on earth do they keep on firing their dem rockets to my face when skyhigh?

Well, the Geth are simply different. They are trigger happy and also, uhm, "space magic," quite literally in this case...

[panda5onix]

FateNeverEnds wrote...

If they can be ragdolled why on earth do they keep on firing their dem rockets to my face when skyhigh?

Working as intended..? 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Well it's great that you found it necessary to conjure up your own definition, but that alone is still not what a ragdoll is.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Well it's great that you found it necessary to conjure up your own definition, but that alone is still not what a ragdoll is.

We all work with our own assumptions. You have stated yours and I've stated mine. Unless you provide me a more definitive answer as to why I should accept yours, I'll stick with mine.

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Well it's great that you found it necessary to conjure up your own definition, but that alone is still not what a ragdoll is.

We all work with our own assumptions. You have stated yours and I've stated mine. Unless you provide me a more definitive answer as to why I should accept yours, I'll stick with mine.

Assumptions? I work in the games industry, I'm not assuming anything, but if you really want this silly  "proof", here is what a simple google search got me:
"The term ragdoll
comes from the problem that the articulated systems, due to the limits of the
solvers used, tend to have little or zero joint/skeletal muscle
stiffness, leading to a character collapsing much like a toy rag doll, often into comically improbable or
compromising positions."

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Assumptions? I work in the games industry, I'm not assuming anything, but if you really want this silly  "proof", here is what a simple google search got me:

And yet all I'm trying to do is differentiate definitions. Anyone can actually do this.

"The term ragdoll
comes from the problem that the articulated systems, due to the limits of the
solvers used, tend to have little or zero joint/skeletal muscle
stiffness, leading to a character collapsing much like a toy rag doll, often into comically improbable or
compromising positions."

And how does that dispute anything I've said before?

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Assumptions? I work in the games industry, I'm not assuming anything, but if you really want this silly  "proof", here is what a simple google search got me:

And yet all I'm trying to do is differentiate definitions. Anyone can actually do this.

"The term ragdoll
comes from the problem that the articulated systems, due to the limits of the
solvers used, tend to have little or zero joint/skeletal muscle
stiffness, leading to a character collapsing much like a toy rag doll, often into comically improbable or
compromising positions."

And how does that dispute anything I've said before?

It disputes that you don't consider a knockdown a ragdoll, even though when a character is knocked down in this game the very obvious ragdoll physics kick in and they just collapse to the floor.

[OniGanon]

Every enemy except maybe Seekers, Swarmers and Prime pets can be staggered (brief animation of hit reaction, also includes knockdowns and overload shocks) if you apply enough force (1500N for Gold, 2000N for Platinum).

Only unarmoured infantry can be ragdolled (thrown, pulled, frozen, stasised, paralysed, lashed).

Stunlock is keeping a target constantly unable to act through some form of crowd control. Staggerlock is a specific kind of stunlock.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

It disputes that you don't consider a knockdown a ragdoll, even though when a character is knocked down in this game the very obvious ragdoll physics kick in and they just collapse to the floor.

Yet that is at the heart of the dispute, which what you pasted above doesn't clarify. As I said before, ragdolling implies to me something different from what a knockdown does. An object (NPC) could be knocked down, as opposed to being staggered, if the force threshold kicks in.

Here's something from your own example about the Power Hammer: "Increase the force of impacts by 100%. Impact passes through armor shields or barriers to knock down humanoid targets."

I'm sure that that happens because of the force on objects that still retain their "skeletal structure." Pretty sure that is different from saying, "tend to have little or zero joint/skeletal muscle stiffness, leading to a character collapsing much like a toy rag doll, often into comically improbable or compromising positions"

Anyway, enough with these semantic games.

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

It disputes that you don't consider a knockdown a ragdoll, even though when a character is knocked down in this game the very obvious ragdoll physics kick in and they just collapse to the floor.

Yet that is at the heart of the dispute, which what you pasted above doesn't clarify. As I said before, ragdolling implies to me something different from what a knockdown does. An object (NPC) could be knocked down, as opposed to being staggered, if the force threshold kicks in.

Here's something from your own example about the Power Hammer: "Increase the force of impacts by 100%. Impact passes through armor shields or barriers to knock down humanoid targets."

I'm sure that that happens because of the force on objects that still retain their "skeletal structure." Pretty sure that is different from saying, "tend to have little or zero joint/skeletal muscle stiffness, leading to a character collapsing much like a toy rag doll, often into comically improbable or compromising positions"

Anyway, enough with these semantic games.

...what? Are you playing a different game than I am? There are no animations for knockdowns, none; a character that gets knocked down falls down completely unrealistically because it's all procedurally generated by the physics engine.
It also has nothing to do with force, the increased force on the evolution is seperate from the knockdown trait (obviously), even at 1300 newtons it will knockdown, whereas throw won't knock down anything that's armoured/shielded even at 2000+ newtons.
Same with lash at 1200 newtons, without the shield penetration evo it does nothing to shielded enemies.
The Biotic hammer evo simply tells the game that whatever it hits should active ragdoll physics.

And lol at the semantic games, it's you who's playing them not me, I gave you the definition of what a rag doll is, yet you find it necessary to dance around that definition simply because you believe there is a difference .

Knockdown = ragdoll
Tossing them around = ragdoll
Anything that doesn't have a premade animation = ragdoll.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

...what? Are you playing a different game than I am? There are no animations for knockdowns, none; a character that gets knocked down falls down completely unrealistically because it's all procedurally generated by the physics engine.

Ok. I'd not observed the animations before. I checked the Biotic Hammer and some of the melee animations again and I guess they do rag doll in this game. My bad.

It also has nothing to do with force, the increased force on the evolution is seperate from the knockdown trait (obviously), even at 1300 newtons it will knockdown, whereas throw won't knock down anything that's armoured/shielded even at 2000+ newtons.

Same with lash at 1200 newtons, without the shield penetration evo it does nothing to shielded enemies.
The Biotic hammer evo simply tells the game that whatever it hits should active ragdoll physics.

And lol at the semantic games, it's you who's playing them not me, I gave you the definition of what a rag doll is, yet you find it necessary to dance around that definition simply because you believe there is a difference .

Knockdown = ragdoll
Tossing them around = ragdoll
Anything that doesn't have a premade animation = ragdoll.

So what you're saying is that there is no game where something associated with knockdown doesn't trigger a rag doll animation? Is that because these animations tend to be costly? I'd implement it differently if I were designing it; it makes no sense to me to rag doll something that ought to be just thrown in the general direction of impact and still retain its rigidity. Or is there simply no difference?

EDIT: Formatting fix.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 20 mai 2013 - 06:13 .

[Tallgeese_VII]

Staggered enemies are still standing on their both feet.

Rag-dolled enemies are victim of physics-engine.

[MGW7]

The only time an entity gets knocked down* but not ragdolled is when a husk finishes its sync grab and knocks the player to the ground WITH a falling animation,
*can almost be called just a stagger

Ragdoll = uncontroled movment
knock down = not standing on their feet
--- With the above exeption any knock down simultaniusly ragdolls,

stagger = no control over deciding actions
---when hit by an attack that immobilizes you and prevents you from attacking, atlas melee, brute charges, any attack that stops enemy movement

stun = patial control
--- when you cannot fire, but still have some ability to move, prime shots do this, enemies are staggered not stunned because they can't move either

Modifié par MGW7, 20 mai 2013 - 06:17 .

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

So what you're saying is that there is no game where something associated with knockdown doesn't trigger a rag doll animation? Is that because these animations tend to be costly? I'd implement it differently if I were designing it; it makes no sense to me to rag doll something that ought to be just thrown in the general direction of impact and still retain its rigidity. Or is there simply no difference?

EDIT: Formatting fix.

Animations are costly yes, because someone has to make them, and simply making 1 animation for every kind of knockdown doesn't look good, that's why there are at least 5 animations to show various degrees of enemy "stun"; a knockdown/toss however needs to be more...organic and thus would require a lot of different animations to look good in various situations, ragdoll physics is easy because it's handled by the game and it looks different every time.

[MichaelFinnegan]

MGW7 wrote...

The only time an entity gets knocked down* but not ragdolled is when a husk finishes its sync grab and knocks the player to the ground WITH a falling animation,
*can almost be called just a stagger

Ragdoll = uncontroled movment
knock down = not standing on their feet
--- With the above exeption any knock down simultaniusly ragdolls,

stagger = no control over deciding actions
---when hit by an attack that immobilizes you and prevents you from attacking, atlas melee, brute charges, any attack that stops enemy movement

stun = patial control
--- when you cannot fire, but still have some ability to move, prime shots do this, enemies are staggered not stunned because they can't move either

Interesting. The things I didn't notice before.

There are other knockdown effects. This happens if you use Concussive Shot or some evolution of Phase Disruptor, I believe. What is the animation for that? I'm unable to find it at the moment. I think these might simply rag doll.

[Reizo Ryuu]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Interesting. The things I didn't notice before.

There are other knockdown effects. This happens if you use Concussive Shot or some evolution of Phase Disruptor, I believe. What is the animation for that? I'm unable to find it at the moment. I think these might simply rag doll.

ccs, pd, carnage, neural shock etc.. are all ragdolls yes.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Animations are costly yes, because someone has to make them, and simply making 1 animation for every kind of knockdown doesn't look good, that's why there are at least 5 animations to show various degrees of enemy "stun"; a knockdown/toss however needs to be more...organic and thus would require a lot of different animations to look good in various situations, ragdoll physics is easy because it's handled by the game and it looks different every time.

I see. Thanks.

[adamBIOTIC]

Modifié par adamBIOTIC, 20 mai 2013 - 07:42 .