285 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I spent some time on the Miranda thread. I was polite, too. They're weren't very happy with me, probably because I tried to argue that Miranda was dishonest at her core. And because I told them their much-lauded idea of having Miranda on Cronos was awful. And pretty much every other 'Miranda-as-a-squadmate' idea they had. They were all bad.

So, you went into a Miranda character support thread and starting telling everyone that their ideas for the character were bad? Mmmk.

Apparently I missed some real gems by staying out of the character section. 

[David7204]

KaiserShep wrote...

Wait, how was Miranda dishonest at her core now? I don't recall all the details of Mass Effect 2, but I'm pretty sure she comes around completely in the end.

Well, my main evidence was that Miranda romanticises 'normality' whenever she talks about her sister, and that carries through to ME 3. She romanticises a normal life as such a great thing for her sister. It's also pretty evident when she speaks to Shepard during Citadel and almost implies she's incapable of normality, that it's some wistful ideal outside her reach. Of course, that's not true at all. Any idiot can go on dates or whatever.

Miranda despises her father, but in the end, she's much more like him that she wants to admit. At the end of the day, as much as she might hate Henry's methods...they worked. They got him what he wanted - a very capable daughter. And Miranda doesn't want to admit that she tremendously values the things he gave her.

But so long as she pretends to herself that 'normal' is some sort of ideal lifestyle, she can pretend that her involvement in Cerberus and the things she's done and the lifestyle she lives have all been forced upon her as some kind of tragic necessity. Which in turn execuses it, and seperates her from her father.

The reality, of course, is far from it. Miranda chose Cerberus, chose her style of work, chose her attitude. Not only does she push that super-practical lifestyle, she shows contempt and impatience towards any kind of 'normality' in her work. She demands perfection, and she's more than willing to use such methods.

I should mention that this was all intentional on the writers' part.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mai 2013 - 05:04 .

[CrutchCricket]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
That is a fair point though. Still, if my volunteer work involved me and my friends having passive aggresive insults thrown at me by some random people I dont know, I probably wouldn't take it very serisously anyways. Especially if I was the only one out of twenty volunteers showing up.

Not that it's happening here, or it's a one-way street, but I have noticed it before.

Except Priestly and the other Bioware employees listed at the bottom do get paid.

Not that it matters. Volunteer or employee this is the job they signed up for. If a mod can't or won't do their job they should be replaced. But no one ever does.

BSN has no moderating. It only has "end of line lockdowns" and bans whenever they feel people have too much fun at their expense.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I spent some time on the Miranda thread. I was polite, too. They're weren't very happy with me, probably because I tried to argue that Miranda was dishonest at her core. And because I told them their much-lauded idea of having Miranda on Cronos was awful. And pretty much every other 'Miranda-as-a-squadmate' idea they had. They were all bad.

So, you went into a Miranda character support thread and starting telling everyone that their ideas for the character were bad? Mmmk.

Apparently I missed some real gems by staying out of the character section. 

You missed some glorious shenanigans.

[David7204]

Miranda being on Cronos is a bad idea because it doesn't do anything. It doesn't accomplish anything. There's no character development, there's no revelations, there's no anything. It's just a character on a mission. And all that's going to do is leave players completely disappointed when they expected a lot more.

Putting Miranda on the mission does not automatically make a great story come out of nowhere! Nearly all the DLC suggestions I've seen in months on this forum boil down to someone who seems to be assuming that if a certain character or certain setting is in a DLC, it will automatically be good. No actual work required.

There were two suggestions I saw again and again concerning possible development. One, Miranda basically has a big emotional breakdown at the end over her supposed shame for ever working with Cerberus. Two, is that Miranda basically takes everything over in a complete re-hash of LotSB, only with much less sense. Needless to say, both awful ideas.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mai 2013 - 05:16 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Wait, how was Miranda dishonest at her core now? I don't recall all the details of Mass Effect 2, but I'm pretty sure she comes around completely in the end.

Well, my main evidence was that Miranda romanticises 'normality' whenever she talks about her sister, and that carries through to ME 3. She romanticises a normal life as such a great thing for her sister. It's also pretty evident when she speaks to Shepard during Citadel and almost implies she's incapable of normality, that it's some wistful ideal outside her reach. Of course, that's not true at all. Any idiot can go on dates or whatever.

Miranda despises her father, but in the end, she's much more like him that she wants to admit. At the end of the day, as much as she might hate Henry's methods...they worked. They got him what he wanted - a very capable daughter. And Miranda doesn't want to admit that she tremendously values the things he gave her.

But so long as she pretends to herself that 'normal' is some sort of ideal lifestyle, she can pretend that her involvement in Cerberus and the things she's done and the lifestyle she lives have all been forced upon her as some kind of tragic necessity. Which in turn execuses it, and seperates her from her father.

The reality, of course, is far from it. Miranda chose Cerberus, chose her style of work, chose her attitude. Not only does she push that super-practical lifestyle, she shows contempt and impatience towards any kind of 'normality' in her work. She demands perfection, and she's more than willing to use such methods.

I should mention that this was all intentional on the writers' part.

That's an interpretation, but not THE interpretation. You're marching around saying that everyone else is wrong with an interpretation, which is pretty insulting, even if I do personally agree with several of your points. And can you tell me where the writers said it was intentional?

Miranda isn't so much inclined towards wanting a totally normal life as she is balancing something she doesn't think she can have with something that she is. She loves what she does with Cerberus. She openly states how much she loves working with people as smart as she is. Her issue isn't "Oh I'm so sad that I can't have a normal life so I settle for working for Cerberus." She's not really cut out for "normal" anyway. She knows what she can do, and she want's to do more. And her insecurities come from a real issue of whether or not her success comes from her, or if it's her fathers for making her perfect. That's why she feels she can only own up to her failures as her own fault.

If that's your interpretation, take it. I can't change it, and I don't feel like putting up the effort to try.

But don't go around swinging the "I'm right and you're wrong and stupid" stick please.

[jtav]

David was...much as he is here.

As for the rest, we had a user who came in and was determined to drown out all other opinions by dint of spam. He also made belittling remarks about other users and cloaked his opinion in semi-intellectual claptrap. It's worth noting that several members who were at each others throats in the forum coexist--if not amicably--in the group without the other poster around.

[David7204]

The point is that she's lying. She doesn't really think a 'normal life' is as great as she makes it sound. The person she's trying to convince is herself.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Miranda being on Cronos is a bad idea because it doesn't do anything. It doesn't accomplish anything. There's no character development, there's no revelations, there's no anything. It's just a character on a mission. And all that's going to do is leave players completely disappointed when they expected a lot more.

Putting Miranda on the mission does not automatically make a great story come out of nowhere! Nearly all the DLC suggestions I've seen in months on this forum boil down to someone who seems to be assuming that if a certain character or certain setting is in a DLC, it will automatically be good. No actual work required.

There were two suggestions I saw again and again concerning possible development. One, Miranda basically has a big emotional breakdown at the end over her supposed shame for ever working with Cerberus. Two, is that Miranda basically takes everything over in a complete re-hash of LotSB, only with much less sense. Needless to say, both awful ideas.

1) I don't know what you're seeing. Once more you're swinging the interpretation stick and hitting people in the head because you don't like their idea's.

2) No it doesn't. I've never seen anyone claim that automatic inclusion = great story. I've seen plenty of great idea's from fans over including characters into DLC for story missions. You're just whining because you don't like people's ideas. Swinging the stick...

3) Once more, you're swinging that stick. 

You don't like idea's. Great. Fine.

But that doesn't make them objectively bad. And it doesn't constitute insults towards people who have idea's.

Go back in your hole.

[KaiserShep]

None of that determines that she's "dishonest to the core". I thought you meant she was outright lying about something that I missed, but apparently not.

[David7204]

Is that all you have to say? My arguments aren't objective? Which can be said of nearly any argument that isn't pure math or something that can be proven step-by-step?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The point is that she's lying. She doesn't really think a 'normal life' is as great as she makes it sound. The person she's trying to convince is herself.

I don't think she's lying at all. A personal life, a sense of normalcy, a family, is something she wants and she does believe in it. That doesn't mean she's ever going to give up on her ambitions, goals, and drive for achievement. It just means that at the end of a long day, she'll want to come home to a husband, a child, a home, and be appreciated and loved. Here she is, put up on some pedestal by her father and shown to be a perfect human specimen, but she was never loved. She was nothing more than a trophy, a showing of status by her father.

[David7204]

KaiserShep wrote...

None of that determines that she's "dishonest to the core". I thought you meant she was outright lying about something that I missed, but apparently not.

She's lying to herself about the value of the 'normal life.' That doesn't count?

Also, this is hardly uncommon. Most people in life are dishonest with themselves about some things.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Is that all you have to say? My arguments aren't objective? Which can be said of nearly any argument that isn't pure math or something that can be proven step-by-step?

I wouldn't even call them arguments. They're opinions. Preferences. Differences in point of view.

And really that is all I have to say. 

You've proven through attitude and delivery that your "argument" and opinion is irrelevant. 

[KaiserShep]

David7204 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

None of that determines that she's "dishonest to the core". I thought you meant she was outright lying about something that I missed, but apparently not.

She's lying to herself about the value of the 'normal life.' That doesn't count?

Also, this is hardly uncommon. Most people in life are dishonest with themselves about some things.

No, it doesn't. When you say "dishonest to the core", that's tantamount to saying she's a pathological liar. Being conflicted does not really mean she's completely dishonest. I think her internal conflict is being played up here to something more than it really is. All in all I'd say it's a minor character flaw, and little more than that. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 21 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

And this has suddenly become a Miranda thread

David7204 wrote...

Miranda being on Cronos is a bad idea because it doesn't do anything. It doesn't accomplish anything. There's no character development, there's no revelations, there's no anything. It's just a character on a mission. And all that's going to do is leave players completely disappointed when they expected a lot more.

Putting Miranda on the mission does not automatically make a great story come out of nowhere! Nearly all the DLC suggestions I've seen in months on this forum boil down to someone who seems to be assuming that if a certain character or certain setting is in a DLC, it will automatically be good. No actual work required.

There were two suggestions I saw again and again concerning possible development. One, Miranda basically has a big emotional breakdown at the end over her supposed shame for ever working with Cerberus. Two, is that Miranda basically takes everything over in a complete re-hash of LotSB, only with much less sense. Needless to say, both awful ideas.

Taking down Cerberus has no potential for the Cerebrus cheerleader's character development? Really? No reflection over her past work with the organization, about the Mission in ME2 when you see the human Reaper again? No reflection on how she first learned to trust TIM, and maybe more insight into the man he was before the Reapers? Nothing? People went nuts for lair of the shadow Broker when all it did was let us read the emails of out team-mates and rehashed a plot that was already in the Vanilla game. People's expectations aren't that exorbitant, they don't need that much to be satisfied, Mass Effect's success is built upon small character driven moments.

There's nothing that objectively makes the suggestion a bad idea. And I don't even particualy care that Miranda wasn't more heavily featured in the game.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 mai 2013 - 05:35 .

[KaiserShep]

As one who took Miranda along to fight the human reaper (her resignation makes it a necessity to me), it would've been awesome to have her accompany Shepard on Cronos and face off with Kai Leng. I wished that she was able to confront the Illusive Man one last time on screen, rather than just the conversation she mentions on the Citadel.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 21 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The point is that she's lying. She doesn't really think a 'normal life' is as great as she makes it sound. The person she's trying to convince is herself.

I don't think she's lying at all. A personal life, a sense of normalcy, a family, is something she wants and she does believe in it. That doesn't mean she's ever going to give up on her ambitions, goals, and drive for achievement. It just means that at the end of a long day, she'll want to come home to a husband, a child, a home, and be appreciated and loved. Here she is, put up on some pedestal by her father and shown to be a perfect human specimen, but she was never loved. She was nothing more than a trophy, a showing of status by her father.

She made the test whether she is fertile or not... she wouldn't have done that if she didn't desire that "normal life"...

I agree that she certainly enjoys the power and excitement she has, but on the other hand she is troubled by the thought that a lot of it what she is as a Cerberus agent is only thanks to the genetics her hated father bought her. Nobody can tell me that her desire to leave all that behind and just be normal is dishonest. 

[dreamgazer]

Oh, lawd.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Indeed. And Miranda taking over Cerberus? She'll be able to turn them into a real group making a real difference, and a real goal towards advancement and protection of the galaxy. She'll turn Cerberus into something that is beneficial for everyone in the galaxy, not just humanity.

TIM had the right idea and he was a visionary (to some) and genuinely wanted to do protect humanity, but somewhere down the line it got muddled in the execution, a loss of his own connection to humanity, and corruption of power and ideals and indoctrination.

[David7204]

KaiserShep wrote...

David7204 wrote...

She's lying to herself about the value of the 'normal life.' That doesn't count?

Also, this is hardly uncommon. Most people in life are dishonest with themselves about some things.

No, it doesn't. When you say "dishonest to the core", that's tantamount to saying she's a pathological liar. Being conflicted does not really mean she's completely dishonest. 

I said dishonest at her core. That's different then saying to her core. And I stand by it. Dishonest doesn't just seem telling lies, it means something much deeper. It means knowing yourself. It means being consistant. It means fully understanding the ideas and values you supposedly stand by without contradiction. It's a...requirement of heroism, you might say. Which is the reason why Miranda is less effective than Shepard and some of the other squadmates despite having more of the easily measureable qualifications. Dishonesty weakens a person.

[KaiserShep]

Internal conflict = dirty stinking liar. She should flagellate herself with a Cerberus cat-o-nine.

[David7204]

Argolas wrote...

She made the test whether she is fertile or not... she wouldn't have done that if she didn't desire that "normal life"...

I agree that she certainly enjoys the power and excitement she has, but on the other hand she is troubled by the thought that a lot of it what she is as a Cerberus agent is only thanks to the genetics her hated father bought her. Nobody can tell me that her desire to leave all that behind and just be normal is dishonest. 

Yes she would have. People do analogous things all the time. They spend a great deal of time, effort, and money trying to convince themselves of one thing or another.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mai 2013 - 05:44 .

[PsyrenY]

Given that the DA2 one is still open and there will likely be one for the DA3 forums, I'd say there's hope that we'll get a new one. But most likely not for ME3.

It's a shame because Citadel gave us so much fodder for character discussions but a few bad apples ruined it for everyone. After the party and Silversun I even started liking Jacob again (though never as a romance, that bastard would never be invited to my party if I had romanced him.)

Mumba1511 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...



Forum's closed.

What even is this?

http://knowyourmeme....es/pools-closed

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 mai 2013 - 05:45 .

[Kel Riever]

Wait! I think we are about to resurrect the Romance sectoin all right here on this thread alone!