285 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Training is not experience. How often did he actually have to use his skills as opposed to just shooting a guy from afar or snapping his neck? Probably pretty rarely. Besides, he doesn't seem the type to bother with improving his skills beyond what he thinks he needs. Compare that to Garrus or Shepard, who seem like people who would fight each other for fun.

Shepard should be the strongest person on the team. If Thane can take Leng, it could very easily come off as contrived when Shepard struggles with him later on.

Nothing beats experience in the field. That said, training as hard as he did for as long as he did is very much going to go a very long way. Live fire training and simulations, especially ones where variables are not controlled by the participating elements do make adequate and reliable facsimile's of training. The purpose is to hone skills and make them second nature. If you have to think about what you're going to do in a combat situation, then you're not doing it right. Be fluid, be adaptable, be moving. It should all be a course of habit, habit built by hours, days, months, years of training. Thane is the type where he's always going to be on the best of his game. He is the best, bar none. Probably the most physically lethal person on the Normandy in ME2. And he's been an assassin for his entire life. You really think he doesn't have the chops to back him up?

Shepard doesn't have to be the best anything, except in leadership. That's just you inflecting an opinion (remember your stick?) There's no question he's a superb marksman, combatant, and master of all combat trades. But him being the absolute best at everything in the universe is very unrealistic. Same goes for the combat trades. He's got the best balance, sure, but he's not the absolute master in every field.

[David7204]

Morlath wrote...

I would say I can't believe I just read this but then this IS BSN...

An assassin trained from early childhood to be the best his body could be would continue to practice and work at his skills regardless of how successful he became. An assassin who was facing an illness that was killing his ability to be active would doubly work on his skills to prolong his life and keep the "I'm still good" feeling going.

Thane at his best would have been able to kill everyone on the Normandy twice over before anyone bar EDI was able to know something was wrong. The only reason the Thane vs Kei Lang fight makes sense is if Thane is literally in his final days and (like some cancer patients) got a second wind that allowed him to be up and moving.

If Thane had taken Kei Lang enough to where the robot ninja ran off with his tail between his legs it still wouldn't have changed the fight between Kei and Shepard. Shepard isn't trained in CQC beyond the normal N7 training and mostly uses weapons, both Kei and Thane are supposed to be expert CQC warriors.

Enthusiam, experience, and improvisation should trump repetition. That's a standard template of heroes - they improvise. And they win. The kind of experiences Shepard and Garrus go through should make them stronger then a guy who kicks a cushion every day.

The best CQC guy on the team? Maybe. (Although the fact that Thane is clearly dependent on certain manuevers should limit his ability to improvise in a fight) But not the best shot as well. And definitely not the best biotic.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mai 2013 - 08:44 .

[PsyrenY]

David7204 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Shepard doesn't struggle with Leng at all. Shepard has to deal with Leng + gunship and Leng + roomful of Phantoms and Guardians, and even then it isn't much of a struggle. I don't have a problem with that.

Shepard should struggle with Leng to make him a nice, satisfying nemisis.

And you do. The fact that he needs daddy's money to be a challenge for Shepard isn't a problem for me.

But I was speaking about Thane, and as the video I linked shows, he is in fact quite experienced in CQC. It isn't just theory, it is honed to the level of instinct.

David7204 wrote...

The best CQC guy on the team? Maybe. (Although the fact that Thane clearly is depependent on certain manuevers should limit his ability to improvise in a fight) But not the best shot as well.  

I would say best shot goes to Garrus and certain Shepards. Thane is up there but not #1.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 mai 2013 - 08:44 .

[Falaxe]

David7204 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Shepard doesn't struggle with Leng at all. Shepard has to deal with Leng + gunship and Leng + roomful of Phantoms and Guardians, and even then it isn't much of a struggle. I don't have a problem with that.

Shepard should struggle with Leng to make him a nice, satisfying nemisis.

I read "snuggle". Please get the image out of my mind. Now.

It was the moderators fault that they had to shut down that sub-forum. Unefficient moderating and "Oh, I`ll let this guy go who wittingly keeps insulting other people" and "I`ll ban this one who posted a pixelated boob in K-18 forum section". Killing and insulting ok, love is not.

Modifié par Falaxe, 21 mai 2013 - 08:45 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Morlath wrote...

I would say I can't believe I just read this but then this IS BSN...

An assassin trained from early childhood to be the best his body could be would continue to practice and work at his skills regardless of how successful he became. An assassin who was facing an illness that was killing his ability to be active would doubly work on his skills to prolong his life and keep the "I'm still good" feeling going.

Thane at his best would have been able to kill everyone on the Normandy twice over before anyone bar EDI was able to know something was wrong. The only reason the Thane vs Kei Lang fight makes sense is if Thane is literally in his final days and (like some cancer patients) got a second wind that allowed him to be up and moving.

If Thane had taken Kei Lang enough to where the robot ninja ran off with his tail between his legs it still wouldn't have changed the fight between Kei and Shepard. Shepard isn't trained in CQC beyond the normal N7 training and mostly uses weapons, both Kei and Thane are supposed to be expert CQC warriors.

Enthusiam, experience, and improvisation should trump repetition. That's a standard template of heroes - they improvise. And they win. The kind of experiences Shepard and Garrus go through should make them stronger then a guy who kicks a cushion every day.

You're getting too much into this idea that Shepard is this big, romantic, herculean hero. 

[Falaxe]

^
Yup, Shepard is a gigolo and Normandy is a 24/7 orgy boat.

Modifié par Falaxe, 21 mai 2013 - 08:50 .

[ObserverStatus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Most of the "Miranda fans" aren't even fans, they're fans of their own headcanon or use her as a Strahovski romance surrogate.

That's a pretty unfair generalization that's meant more to outline your own dislike of the character and her fans than actually say anything intelligent.

And this right here is pretty much why Bioware closed the character and romance section.

[themikefest]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Training is not experience. How often did he actually have to use his skills as opposed to just shooting a guy from afar or snapping his neck? Probably pretty rarely. Besides, he doesn't seem the type to bother with improving his skills beyond what he thinks he needs. Compare that to Garrus or Shepard, who seem like people who would fight each other for fun.

Shepard should be the strongest person on the team. If Thane can take Leng, it could very easily come off as contrived when Shepard struggles with him later on.

Nothing beats experience in the field. That said, training as hard as he did for as long as he did is very much going to go a very long way. Live fire training and simulations, especially ones where variables are not controlled by the participating elements do make adequate and reliable facsimile's of training. The purpose is to hone skills and make them second nature. If you have to think about what you're going to do in a combat situation, then you're not doing it right. Be fluid, be adaptable, be moving. It should all be a course of habit, habit built by hours, days, months, years of training. Thane is the type where he's always going to be on the best of his game. He is the best, bar none. Probably the most physically lethal person on the Normandy in ME2. And he's been an assassin for his entire life. You really think he doesn't have the chops to back him up?

Shepard doesn't have to be the best anything, except in leadership. That's just you inflecting an opinion (remember your stick?) There's no question he's a superb marksman, combatant, and master of all combat trades. But him being the absolute best at everything in the universe is very unrealistic. Same goes for the combat trades. He's got the best balance, sure, but he's not the absolute master in every field.

I agree. When I was in Iraq in 1991, an E7 who was in Vietnam,  told me if you have time to think you have time to die.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

bobobo878 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Most of the "Miranda fans" aren't even fans, they're fans of their own headcanon or use her as a Strahovski romance surrogate.

That's a pretty unfair generalization that's meant more to outline your own dislike of the character and her fans than actually say anything intelligent.

And this right here is pretty much why Bioware closed the character and romance section.

What, because I stated that I didn't like how he was saying fans of a character aren't real fans? 

[David7204]

It's the truth. Thinking on your feet is better than repetition. Even repetition from Age 8.

[PsyrenY]

David7204 wrote...

It's the truth. Thinking on your feet is better than repetition. Even repetition from Age 8.

And Thane clearly is capable of thinking on his feet. Again, see the video.

[Morlath]

David7204 wrote...

Enthusiam, experience, and improvisation should trump repetition. That's a standard template of heroes - they improvise. And they win. The kind of experiences Shepard and Garrus go through should make them stronger then a guy who kicks a cushion every day.

I'm asking an honest and serious question here. Do you know anything about training your body to do physical activities?

Whether it's taking a gun apart, fighting CQC or playing the guitar, the entire concept (as already replied to you by someone else) is to turn a serious of physical acts into instinctive motions that the conscious brain isn't even aware of anymore. It's the entire "wax on, wax off" training. Thane is taught this from a very young age until it becomes all his body knows. As he tells you in ME2 he is able to mentally check out for massive periods of time and still perform any assassination required of him.

Shepard and Garrus are given overal trainings which are then improved upon by the events in ME1-3.

The best CQC guy on the team? Maybe. (Although the fact that Thane is clearly dependent on certain manuevers should limit his ability to improvise in a fight) But not the best shot as well. And definitely not the best biotic.

Dependent on certain manuevers? Whatever are you talking about?

And someone with a gun and a biotic both have the exact same flaw. They need to know someone is coming for them in order to use their weapon. Thane pretty much proves in his ME2 intro scene that he is capable of taking down Asari commandos without making any aware of him being there.

[Falaxe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Most of the "Miranda fans" aren't even fans, they're fans of their own headcanon or use her as a Strahovski romance surrogate.

That's a pretty unfair generalization that's meant more to outline your own dislike of the character and her fans than actually say anything intelligent.

And this right here is pretty much why Bioware closed the character and romance section.

What, because I stated that I didn't like how he was saying fans of a character aren't real fans? 

And also, people in character section weren`t giving proper feedback. I  think that BioWare does not want to read some nerds speculating how  quarian/asari/turian/drell sweat would taste with or without alcohol.  Anyone who tried to criticize that there were something wrong or  bizarre, was shot down and kicked out. That poor guy who asked where all the fat asari were in the ME-series... Dat flame/rage still gives me  fuzzy feelings


Edit: Copy paste y u no fukin work

Modifié par Falaxe, 21 mai 2013 - 08:55 .

[ObserverStatus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
What, because I stated that I didn't like how he was saying fans of a character aren't real fans? 

Because you're too quick to take the flame bait.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

themikefest wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Training is not experience. How often did he actually have to use his skills as opposed to just shooting a guy from afar or snapping his neck? Probably pretty rarely. Besides, he doesn't seem the type to bother with improving his skills beyond what he thinks he needs. Compare that to Garrus or Shepard, who seem like people who would fight each other for fun.

Shepard should be the strongest person on the team. If Thane can take Leng, it could very easily come off as contrived when Shepard struggles with him later on.

Nothing beats experience in the field. That said, training as hard as he did for as long as he did is very much going to go a very long way. Live fire training and simulations, especially ones where variables are not controlled by the participating elements do make adequate and reliable facsimile's of training. The purpose is to hone skills and make them second nature. If you have to think about what you're going to do in a combat situation, then you're not doing it right. Be fluid, be adaptable, be moving. It should all be a course of habit, habit built by hours, days, months, years of training. Thane is the type where he's always going to be on the best of his game. He is the best, bar none. Probably the most physically lethal person on the Normandy in ME2. And he's been an assassin for his entire life. You really think he doesn't have the chops to back him up?

Shepard doesn't have to be the best anything, except in leadership. That's just you inflecting an opinion (remember your stick?) There's no question he's a superb marksman, combatant, and master of all combat trades. But him being the absolute best at everything in the universe is very unrealistic. Same goes for the combat trades. He's got the best balance, sure, but he's not the absolute master in every field.

I agree. When I was in Iraq in 1991, an E7 who was in Vietnam,  told me if you have time to think you have time to die.

You train so much that everything is second nature. In all 4 situations that I was in that would qualify as a combat situation, I bucked down, remembered my training, took a deep breath, and did my job. And everything I had to do was so ingrained in my mind from hours upon hours of drilling and training that I accomplished my job spectacularly. Every other soldier in my squad, platoon, and company did the exact same, with the exact same results.

[David7204]

Optimystic_X wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's the truth. Thinking on your feet is better than repetition. Even repetition from Age 8.

And Thane clearly is capable of thinking on his feet. Again, see the video.

That's exactly the problem. Thane shouldn't be able to do such things.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

bobobo878 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
What, because I stated that I didn't like how he was saying fans of a character aren't real fans? 

Because you're too quick to take the flame bait.

Well, I didn't really say anything that would really count as butthurt.

I said that he was intentionally making a negative generalization towards fans of a certain character (who he has expressed dislike for in the past). I certainly don't meet that generalization. Most other fans of Miranda don't either. I think his comment was pretty unfair to us.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's the truth. Thinking on your feet is better than repetition. Even repetition from Age 8.

And Thane clearly is capable of thinking on his feet. Again, see the video.

That's exactly the problem. Thane shouldn't be able to do such things.

Why not? He's been trained from Age 8, and has been a Master Assassin his entire life, with who knows how many kills and professional hits he's accomplished.

Because he can't be better than Shepard? That's ridiculous.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 21 mai 2013 - 08:56 .

[Ledgend1221]

What's this about?

Training vs experience?
Soldier vs Assassin?
Biscuit vs cake?

[David7204]

Let's call it 'improvisation training vs. repetition training.'

'Rocky' training vs. 'other guy' training.

[PsyrenY]

David7204 wrote...

That's exactly the problem. Thane shouldn't be able to do such things.

Why not? Because you want to be a special snowflake? Do you want to out-thief Kasumi or out-biotic Jack while you're at it?

**** that. "There's always someone better out there." Anderson says this himself in Citadel - his most valuable lesson when he became an N7, one that saved his life more than once.

[Ryzaki]

To be fair Shep gets hit pretty hard with the idiot ball whenever he's within five feet of Kai Leng. So does most everyone for that matter.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Optimystic_X wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's exactly the problem. Thane shouldn't be able to do such things.

Why not? Because you want to be a special snowflake? Do you want to out-thief Kasumi or out-biotic Jack while you're at it?

**** that. "There's always someone better out there." Anderson says this himself in Citadel - his most valuable lesson when he became an N7, one that saved his life more than once.

Hell, America's Ace of Aces, Dick Bong (40 Air-to-Air victories) acknoweldged he wasn't the best pilot. He got the most kills because he used that to his advantage.

Always assume the guy you're facing knows more than you, has more experience than you, and knows exactly what you're going to do.

[David7204]

Thane being better at CQC is fine, although it would be nice to have the dossier focus on that. Being better than everyone else on the team at CQC, stealth, biotics, acrobatics, and marksmanship is not fine at all.

[Morlath]

David7204 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's the truth. Thinking on your feet is better than repetition. Even repetition from Age 8.

And Thane clearly is capable of thinking on his feet. Again, see the video.

That's exactly the problem. Thane shouldn't be able to do such things.

Thane - Assassin trained since he was 8, been killing since he was 11.
Shepard - N7 grunt with combat experience and maybe biotics.

No contest.