4196 réponses à ce sujet

[Foxhound2121]

AresKeith wrote...

They're probably hoping that non-gamers and people who don't care out weigh the others

The gaming market is so broad today that most people buy buy buy with no information. The vast majority of these buyers will get home and only then realize that they have to have a camera installed in their livingroom that needs to phone home to corporate and has data-mining management controls in order to operate.

For most people and parents, this would be an instant deal breaker for them before the purchase, but now they are stuck with something that they might not be able to return for kid-crying reasons, or more tangible ones.

Honestly, I think it should be illegal to even sell a product in this fashion. Just like there should be a warning label on a pack of cigarettes, there should also be a large warning label on the xbone box fulling explaining its privacy concerns and data-mining camera for children and teens.

Unfortunately, the government is bought and paid for nowadays when it comes to consumer friendly privacy laws unlike 10 or 20 years ago.

[billy the squid]

Cyonan wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I think it's true in so far, if gamers don't have options, other than the option to not buy it, which is where MS' arrogance comes into it. As there is no backwards compatibility and there don't seem to be any really big exclusives beyond Gears of War and Halo, which have been knocking about for over a decade now, is there anything to stop people just walking away? 

There's the PS4 and the PC. Beyond brand loyalty, which MS has shat all over, there's not much to keep people with Xbox if they choose not to put up with it, and decide that the other two options offer a better deal. 

Well the people in group 1 will still buy it anyway because they don't care about the DRM or used games issues.

Sony is in a great position to grab up a lot of people in group 2, though since as you said they have an alternative that isn't "don't buy anything at all".

It depends on how their DRM works which according to the link in this thread they've taken the stance of "We're not adding DRM, we're just adding DRM that the developers can turn on". I gotta imagine that means a lot of cross platform titles will have that DRM turned on, because it's already on for the X1.

I think you will always have loyalists, with I want to say more money than sense, but some don't even have that, so I'll just say no sense and others who just aren't concerned by any of the restrictions.

If there was only the "don't buy anything at all" option, which I agree gamers are bad at generally, then Xbox would have less of an issue, but yes there are other options.

PS4 have been fairly quiet. They have said they would leave it up to publishers whether implimnet the DRM, which makes me think they may have the same system as this gen in place. They've effectively put the ball in the publisher's court by doing that. The PS4 doesn't have to be online, so I'm not sure how they would use the same authentification proceedure that MS uses to block the sale of games outside a select retailer, which is what makes me think they will use the online pass system for the online elements, leaving the single player off line games open. 

As I tend to split my time between PC and consoles, (PC being for games like Rome II and Crusader KingsII) I'm waiting until more info and I probably won't pick up the PS4, if I think it meets my expectations, until several months after it's released. Snag it when the price drops after the Christmas rush.

Modifié par billy the squid, 08 juin 2013 - 10:34 .

[ShepnTali]

Time for a meme..

[Cyonan]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

The gaming market is so broad today that most people buy buy buy with no information. The vast majority of these buyers will get home and only then realize that they have to have a camera installed in their livingroom that needs to phone home to corporate and has data-mining management controls in order to operate.

For most people and parents, this would be an instant deal breaker for them before the purchase, but now they are stuck with something that they might not be able to return for kid-crying reasons, or more tangible ones.

Honestly, I think it should be illegal to even sell a product in this fashion. Just like there should be a warning label on a pack of cigarettes, there should also be a large warning label on the xbone box fulling explaining its privacy concerns and data-mining camera for children and teens.

Unfortunately, the government is bought and paid for nowadays when it comes to consumer friendly privacy laws unlike 10 or 20 years ago.

If they did this then they would also need to slap the label on the PS4, WiiU, PC, and most devices these days.

If it can connect to the internet, it can be used to datamine your information.

[TheRealJayDee]

My PS3 can connect to the internet.

It doesn't need to do so in order for me to play my games.

It also doesn't come with a microphone that always needs to be on in some fashion.

Or a camera that might or might not count how many of my friends watch a movie with me.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 08 juin 2013 - 10:57 .

[Cyonan]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Or a camera that might or might not count how many of my friends watch a movie with me.

If we're going off patents, then both Sony and Microsoft are bad and should feel bad.

Microsoft may or may not count how many people want to watch a movie with you.

Sony may or may not pause your gameplay to show you advertisements.

[Foxhound2121]

Cyonan wrote...

If they did this then they would also need to slap the label on the PS4, WiiU, PC, and most devices these days.

If it can connect to the internet, it can be used to datamine your information.

None of those things forcably require an always connected camera in order to turn on.

[MegaSovereign]

Well Sony's situation isn't quite clear. Technically, Publishers are free to implement online DRM policies on PS3 and 360. PS4 will not be different in this regard. Unless Sony has actually made it easier for publishers to implement a similar DRM system as the Xbox One then I don't think we have too much to worry about.

[Doctoglethorpe]

I don't think consumers are that oblivious about what they are buying. I just think they don't really care. They don't worry about circumstances, don't care about drm or whatever. They want a service that looks good, gimme. Sour after taste? If that's the cost.

Microsoft is clearly shifting gears though. Their target is no longer core gamers, at least not solely. Instead of focusing on us, they want to try to include everyone, not just casuals but even people who don't even play games. Thats not to say they don't want gamers, but xbox is no longer about just us, we will only be a portion of its user base. Games will only be a division of xbox, not the entire point of it. Just look at things like Xbox Music. Nothign to do with gaming at all, they even put it on tablets. Its abundantly clear they no longer consider xbox a gaming brand.

Sony sees this opening wide and clear. They will win the gamer market by simply giving it more attention. That doesn't mean they will be more successful overall though. I can easily see a scenario where Xbox One sells more units and has more users, but PS4 has a stronger install base of actual core gamers and thus developers find more success on it. We're going to be seeing this debate a lot in the coming generation where both sides "win" depending on what your definition of winning is.

Its kind of nice though finally having a clear choice. 360 and PS3 were barely different at all on the consumers end, like comparing a red apple to a green apple. The difference was mostly cosmetic. Now we can compare an apple to an orange, as the entire purpose of the devices will be different.

[MerinTB]

Rental is starting to test the waters on how much they can react to this, I think.

Anyone get this e-mail from Redbox?






Bigger, readable versions here http://i1232.photobu...zpsb2b7b69b.png and here http://i1232.photobu...zpsaf2183d9.png

[ShepnTali]

^ Redbox diplomatically saying... Let them know this sucks! They know full well what the vibe is out there.

Modifié par ShepnTali, 08 juin 2013 - 11:28 .

[Cyonan]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

If they did this then they would also need to slap the label on the PS4, WiiU, PC, and most devices these days.

If it can connect to the internet, it can be used to datamine your information.

None of those things forcably require an always connected camera in order to turn on.

Which technically the X1 doesn't either because it's not going to be officially considered as being always-on. Law isn't really all that straight forward when it comes to doing stuff like this.

I'm all for consumers being educated on their purchases, but you can't just slap a warning label on one product because the company did something you don't like, even if not liking it is justified.

[ShepnTali]

Maybe it's a lost cause and most people don't care about privacy anymore, with all the social media these days, but I just want to play games on my TV, and this is just creepy to imagine...


http://dailycaller.c...-watch-you-247/


coupled with this...


http://news.cnet.com...ases/?ttag=fbwp 

Modifié par ShepnTali, 09 juin 2013 - 12:18 .

[Cyonan]

ShepnTali wrote...

Maybe it's a lost cause and most people don't care about privacy anymore, with all the social media these days, but I just want to play games on my TV, and this is just creepy to imagine...


http://dailycaller.c...-watch-you-247/


coupled with this...


http://news.cnet.com...ases/?ttag=fbwp 

I'm more of the opinion that it's not that we shouldn't care about privacy but rather that when it comes to organizations like the NSA then we shouldn't worry that they might steal our personal data because they already stole it. The second article confirms that this is exactly what they've been doing for years.

From a business standpoint, I would need to see the logic in Microsoft datamining Kinect footage. There might be profit to be had in knowing how many people are in a room or if you are in fact you, but there's no real profit to be had in any sort of personal data that you can get out of the Kinect. Microsoft can't profit off of knowing what you and your living room looks like.

Your gaming, browsing, and TV watching habits(none of which they need Kinect to know) on the other hand...

[slimgrin]

MerinTB wrote...

Rental is starting to test the waters on how much they can react to this, I think.

Anyone get this e-mail from Redbox?

It's a done deal. Redbox or any other retailer doesn't mean sh*t unless they partner with MS now. Too many people will buy this thing no matter what. They could spit in the customer's face and they'll still buy it cause it's XBAUX!

[Weskerr]

Cyonan wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

The gaming market is so broad today that most people buy buy buy with no information. The vast majority of these buyers will get home and only then realize that they have to have a camera installed in their livingroom that needs to phone home to corporate and has data-mining management controls in order to operate.

For most people and parents, this would be an instant deal breaker for them before the purchase, but now they are stuck with something that they might not be able to return for kid-crying reasons, or more tangible ones.

Honestly, I think it should be illegal to even sell a product in this fashion. Just like there should be a warning label on a pack of cigarettes, there should also be a large warning label on the xbone box fulling explaining its privacy concerns and data-mining camera for children and teens.

Unfortunately, the government is bought and paid for nowadays when it comes to consumer friendly privacy laws unlike 10 or 20 years ago.

If they did this then they would also need to slap the label on the PS4, WiiU, PC, and most devices these days.

If it can connect to the internet, it can be used to datamine your information.

Yep, the constitution forbids congress to pass laws tailored to specific individuals only.

[Mystical_Gaming]

yep not buying the Xbox One and if PS4 has same 24 hour DRM no dice on that either. I will stick to PC on steam where I can buy games and still play them offline.

I've already been called an idiot/dumb several times on other gaming forums like bungie.net because out of principle I won't buy a console with such aggressive DRM. I guess some people like to borrow games they buy but I like to own them and continue playing them offline well after servers get pulled.

[MerinTB]

slimgrin wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Rental is starting to test the waters on how much they can react to this, I think.

Anyone get this e-mail from Redbox?

It's a done deal. Redbox or any other retailer doesn't mean sh*t unless they partner with MS now. Too many people will buy this thing no matter what. They could spit in the customer's face and they'll still buy it cause it's XBAUX!

Redbox has survived without studios that won't play ball.  So has Netflix.  Redbox will live without Xbone games.  MS will miss all those Redbox purchases, however.

[Foxhound2121]

Cyonan wrote...


Which technically the X1 doesn't either because it's not going to be officially considered as being always-on. Law isn't really all that straight forward when it comes to doing stuff like this.

I'm all for consumers being educated on their purchases, but you can't just slap a warning label on one product because the company did something you don't like, even if not liking it is justified.

That's why I said it something that should be looked into aggressively. Putting data collection with video in the common livingroom is an entirely different ballpark of worrisome than todays standards.

Cyonan wrote...

From a business standpoint, I would
need to see the logic in Microsoft datamining Kinect footage. There
might be profit to be had in knowing how many people are in a room or if
you are in fact you, but there's no real profit to be had in any sort
of personal data that you can get out of the Kinect. Microsoft can't
profit off of knowing what you and your living room looks like.

Your gaming, browsing, and TV watching habits(none of which they need Kinect to know) on the other hand...

Why has microsoft stated that there are management controls for turning off such data collections then. Furthermore, if you visit their website, they clearly state that they do use the camera video for data collection but there is an option to turn it off. Problem is many people and parents don't even know it happens let alone know there is a option to turn it off as they avoid the press for E3 and dodge around it apparently so well that you weren't even aware.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Cyonan wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

Maybe it's a lost cause and most people don't care about privacy anymore, with all the social media these days, but I just want to play games on my TV, and this is just creepy to imagine...


http://dailycaller.c...-watch-you-247/


coupled with this...


http://news.cnet.com...ases/?ttag=fbwp 

I'm more of the opinion that it's not that we shouldn't care about privacy but rather that when it comes to organizations like the NSA then we shouldn't worry that they might steal our personal data because they already stole it. The second article confirms that this is exactly what they've been doing for years.

From a business standpoint, I would need to see the logic in Microsoft datamining Kinect footage. There might be profit to be had in knowing how many people are in a room or if you are in fact you, but there's no real profit to be had in any sort of personal data that you can get out of the Kinect. Microsoft can't profit off of knowing what you and your living room looks like.

Your gaming, browsing, and TV watching habits(none of which they need Kinect to know) on the other hand...

I think you missed the point Shepn was making, or at least the point I got from it.  It doesn't really even matter what they do themselves with the footage and data (although their goals look pretty messed up, making sure your a good little advertisement gobbler, heres your feed drip girble, fancy a hop on your wheel?) now that we know the government pretty much has free reign to take all of it and use it to whatever ends they have.  And their ends are not for that of profit, its not of random meta-data gathering.  Its surveillance.  Idc if the likelyhood of being singled out is a million to one, idc if I don't really do anything that would even warrent suspicion (I bet just by frequeting Al Jazeera I'm in that 51% likelihood to be a forigner), I don't want that capability to be there in the first place.  I don't want a ****ing orwellian eye in my bedroom, even if its "probably" just a sleeping instrument.  Its bad enough I know all my emails and internet usage is open season, this is just ****ing insanity.

This Prism **** has pretty much sealed the deal on me NOT buying an Xbox One.  Idc what games they make for it anymore, I don't want this **** in my room.  Call me paranoid, idc.  I was worried to begin with but this recent revelation has just pushed me over the edge. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 09 juin 2013 - 05:09 .

[Homebound]

so nexgen winners r ps4 and lagging behind is nintendo.

as long as xbox doesnt win im happy.

[Salamander Soup]

IGN Xbox One/ PS4 versus results are in. It was brutal.

Modifié par Salamander Soup, 09 juin 2013 - 05:54 .

[Gatt9]

Homebound wrote...

so nexgen winners r ps4 and lagging behind is nintendo.

as long as xbox doesnt win im happy.

Not necessarily,  there's a lot of ways this can go,  that scenario is just one of them.  First,  establishing the basis of my argument...

-The video game market has been in steep decline for at least two years,  and quite possibly more (Rockband/Guitar Hero may have disguised contractions in general gaming).  It's so bad that today the NPD is including mobile games as gaming revenue,  and doesn't appear to be announcing to the public how year-over-year revenues are going with consoles,  leading me to believe that the market is continuing to shrink from even 2012's abysmal numbers.

-There are currently 7 to 10 platforms that will be in play by the end of 2014.  360, PS3, Xbox One, PS4, PC, Wii-U, Ouya, Shield, Madcatz newly announced Android console,  and possibly the Steambox.

So what we have is a market that's largely rejecting games in this current generation,  for whatever reason,  most likely because they're all nearly the same games,  and a unprecedented number of platforms in play.  It's entirely possible that the large number of platforms will cause a significant number of people to stay on the sidelines out of uncertainty,  as no one wants to buy a console and have it be a paperweight.  Especialy for dedicated but not hardcore X-box fans.

If Sony comes out with a release list that's largely Doom-clone, Call of Duty-clone,  Gears of War-clone, Uncharted-clone,  it's *extremely* likely that all but the most hardcore will decide to wait to buy a new system.  Waiting for new IP's and a larger library,  and for the dust to settle.

That'll be catastrophic.  That'll wipe out the Game Industry in a year.  If people aren't buying games on today's platforms,  aren't migrating to tomorrows or migrating very slowly,  and publishers are dumping hundreds of millions into new game development hoping that it will shore up flagging revenues,  they're not going to survive.  They *need* people to migrate quickly and to buy a large number of games apiece.

I can't really make a prediction at this point,  E3 will shed some light on things,  but I'd say there's a very good chance that this is going to end badly and quickly.  Given that right now,  Publishers require a market base of ~140 million just to squeak buy with unimpressive profits,  and that console launches have never been know to sell anything remotely close to 140 million,  there's an enourmous amount of risk right now.  The tepid reception to both machines is concerning too,  especially since I don't believe either one has shown anything but pre-renders yet.

Modifié par Gatt9, 09 juin 2013 - 06:15 .

[MerinTB]

Salamander Soup wrote...
IGN Xbox One/ PS4 versus results are in. It was brutal.

If that is even partially represenative of gamers as a whole...

Microsoft cannot be happy.