553 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

The difference is that Shepard, i.e. the player, does not get to live with that choice. The game is over and instead of seeing and living through the consequences, we are tasked with watching a vid of someone else's perspective. And that someone is alway's sympathetic to the choice. Therein providing a skewed perspective.

If Hackett had narrated the Synthesis ending would he be saying how great it is that his eye's glow and the Reaper's are all buddies now? On the same level, does being synth'd mean an end to all conflict? The key message in synth is that everyone understands each other. Yet....... org's and org's understood each other and still fought each other.

Likewise the Geth had an internal conflict and both side's were synth's.

Therefore, it is not out of the question that in synthesis, the peace the Cat promised Shepard is an illusion until some group decides it want's something and another group decide it want's the same thing for itself. Synthesis did not cure people of a need for government, or natrual resources, or even the petty mindset's of those who joined Cerberus to fight alien's........ or did it?

The husk that stopped attacking the soldier at the end ME3 in the ECDLC, when the wave hit, stopped so suddenly from attempting to rip the soldier's throat out with his teeth that it is not impossible to consider that it's perspective that altered in the time it takes to snap your fingers. This implies that it's priorities have changed in the space of a second. From hissing pitting footsoldier to something else that doesn't want to kill on sight.

For that level of change to take place we have to consider an implanted mental suggestion, or a form of mind control, or even.......a new command sent through indoctrination.

Suddenly, we have to consider if synthesis is set to become a Utopia because it level's the playing field by standardising the physical form and mental reasoning...........

For that husk to stop dead from killing that solider had to be more than the physical alteration of it's body. And since Synth was indiscriminate in how it affected those it touched. It must therefore have altered the soldier's mind and body as well.

[Mcfly616]

evil?

[Redbelle]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So much crazy.

I love it.

Sticking around for a bit?

Did you bring the waffles from the other thread?

[Wayning_Star]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I was just thinking a bit about this.

Here's the thing, you have the initial "a new... DNA" explanation. I'm still not sure if that's meant to be taken at its face, as just a dumbed-down explanation, or both. If you press him about the details, he explains it as "organics will be able to integrate with technology, synthetics will gain understanding."

So, it's a no-change for synthetics -- "understanding" is not a tangible substance. Organics gain some sort of new innate ability (which seems to match the "alter the matrix of organic life" line).

So I basically asked myself, "Self, if I change a man to grant him a new ability, which he doesn't like and proceeds to shun it completely -- have I even changed that person at all?"

I tend to think "no" to that one. So in the end, it comes down to giving people funny tattoos to stop the Reapers.


Not what I'd call "evil" ... just "unorthodox!"

I'd suspect it'd be necessary to understand the principals of DNA in advanced alien computer systems. I'm thinking they're all organic computers anyway. Makes more sense when interacting as to understand the frustrations of both when talking 'linking' between organic life forms and synthetic life forms. The Geth and Legion really announce that with their loyalty to their maker Quarians. Fight to survive, yet keep the Quarian home world in good repair. A "kind" of synthesis.


To stop the reapers is to stop chaos. Anyone actually KNOW what chaos is? (in reference to the catalyst/intelligence/Leviathan level of communication. Less than Geth/Quarians for sure...)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 *edit* -- nvm, nothing to see here/move along.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 24 mai 2013 - 12:13 .

[Redbelle]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I was just thinking a bit about this.

Here's the thing, you have the initial "a new... DNA" explanation. I'm still not sure if that's meant to be taken at its face, as just a dumbed-down explanation, or both. If you press him about the details, he explains it as "organics will be able to integrate with technology, synthetics will gain understanding."

So, it's a no-change for synthetics -- "understanding" is not a tangible substance. Organics gain some sort of new innate ability (which seems to match the "alter the matrix of organic life" line).

So I basically asked myself, "Self, if I change a man to grant him a new ability, which he doesn't like and proceeds to shun it completely -- have I even changed that person at all?"

I tend to think "no" to that one. So in the end, it comes down to giving people funny tattoos to stop the Reapers.


Not what I'd call "evil" ... just "unorthodox!"

I'm just sorry there will be no ME spin off of Synthesis where you get to play the spiritual successor of Inspector Gadget. Integrate with technology? Where's the particle canon for a hand?

*edit

lol I saw it! Don't worry. I gotcha!

*edit *edit Stop Editing your posts! Now I look like a crazy person:O

Modifié par Redbelle, 24 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Redbelle wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So much crazy.

I love it.

Sticking around for a bit?

Did you bring the waffles from the other thread?

The waffles are sadly not my gimmick.

But yes we I will be sticking around.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Redbelle wrote...

I'm just sorry there will be no ME spin off of Synthesis where you get to play the spiritual successor of Inspector Gadget. Integrate with technology? Where's the particle canon for a hand?

I understand "integrate with technology" as being some sort of naturally compatability with external tech, not a change where organics are ingrained with robotic hardware.

Think back to the scene in Citadel DLC where Maya Brooks says she'll need a minute to decrypt info off of Elijah Khan's terminal, and Joker says "EDI can do that in seconds," but EDI says she wanted to allow Brooks a little practice.

I think, post-Sync, organics would adapt such that that disparity would be closed.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 24 mai 2013 - 12:21 .

[mass perfection]

Sovereign: "...a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it."

EDI: "....reach a level of existence I can not even imagine."

[bowboski]

mass perfection wrote...

 I see good in Synthesis but the bad in it seems to outweigh it.Convince meto believe otherwise or try to justify it.

If synthesis is so bad, then why does everyone look so happy in the ending? I don't know which synthesis ending you saw, but the one I saw looked like it worked out pretty well for the galaxy.

Galactic peace, the knowledge from past civilizations obtained, the reapers helping the galaxy rebuild, yeah I could see how that would be considered bad...

Modifié par bowboski, 24 mai 2013 - 12:46 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[Clayless]

By this stage I'm sure we've all realised morality is subjective.

[Auld Wulf]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Yup. What more needs be said?

[Caldari Ghost]

jstme wrote...

Evolution is constant adaptation to changing environment. Survival of the fittest. 
AI rewriting genome is as far as it can be from the evolution. It is reprogramming.
Also, there is no final stage of evolution as long as environment is not static which is clearly the case in an infinite universe of ours.
"Whatever", "try harder" and even allpowerfull "alleles" do not change the fact that sythesis in ME3 is immoral. All 3 choices are immoral - by stupid speculations for everyone design,you just choose what immoral option speaks to you more. Or install MEHEM .

stubborn ignorance at it's finest.

[Caldari Ghost]

jstme wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

jstme wrote...

 objectively immoral.

now i know i disagree with you.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 24 mai 2013 - 10:32 .

[Caldari Ghost]

jstme wrote...

Phatose wrote...

If evolution is adaptation to a changing environment, then synthesis is evolution.
The AI and it's green wave are the environment, and the rewrite is the adaptation to that environment.

Sigh.
Phatose, i always respected that you never troll but speak civil and use rational arguements. In this case i find myself actually hoping that you are trolling because otherwise Kirk Lazarus might have a word with you.
In any case:
Green wave is the thing that rewrites the genes. It is no more an adaptation by genes to changing environment then this:
http://en.wikipedia....i/Vacanti_mouse 

how the F*** do you think organisms "adapt"?!? do they just "adapt"?!?!?!

[Caldari Ghost]

Phatose wrote...

jstme wrote...

Phatose wrote...

If evolution is adaptation to a changing environment, then synthesis is evolution.
The AI and it's green wave are the environment, and the rewrite is the adaptation to that environment.

Sigh.
Phatose, i always respected that you never troll but speak civil and use rational arguements. In this case i find myself actually hoping that you are trolling because otherwise Kirk Lazarus might have a word with you.
In any case:
Green wave is the thing that rewrites the genes. It is no more an adaptation by genes to changing environment then this:
http://en.wikipedia....i/Vacanti_mouse 

The thing is, that actually is evolution too.  And when the thing dies because it's not well adapted, that's evolution as well.  Or when the scientist decides that's enough of that, and euthanizes.

That's true whether it's predators adapting to their prey building shells, or moths in London growing darker to fit in with the smog,  cattle being selectively bred for being tasty, or green waves.

Environment is all encompassing.  It's nature, and  like "Natural", it's gotten some fairly odd connotations attached, where man and machine are somehow separate from it.  But they're not.  A man behaves in way way prescribed by the same physics as everything else, as does his inventions, or the reapers.  These words still get used in a way where man is not just another animal, a holdover from Religion - but that's outdated.

But just to be clear here, the fact that it's evolution does not make it good, right, or acceptable.  Evolution is completely amoral - it's a description of what happens, not a plan. 

exactly. morality is a subjective concept.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 24 mai 2013 - 11:54 .

[Caldari Ghost]

jstme wrote...

Phatose wrote...

jstme wrote...

Phatose wrote...

If evolution is adaptation to a changing environment, then synthesis is evolution.
The AI and it's green wave are the environment, and the rewrite is the adaptation to that environment.

Sigh.
Phatose, i always respected that you never troll but speak civil and use rational arguements. In this case i find myself actually hoping that you are trolling because otherwise Kirk Lazarus might have a word with you.
In any case:
Green wave is the thing that rewrites the genes. It is no more an adaptation by genes to changing environment then this:
http://en.wikipedia....i/Vacanti_mouse 

The thing is, that actually is evolution too.  And when the thing dies because it's not well adapted, that's evolution as well.  Or when the scientist decides that's enough of that, and euthanizes.

That's true whether it's predators adapting to their prey building shells, or moths in London growing darker to fit in with the smog,  cattle being selectively bred for being tasty, or green waves.

Environment is all encompassing.  It's nature, and  like "Natural", it's gotten some fairly odd connotations attached, where man and machine are somehow separate from it.  But they're not.  A man behaves in way way prescribed by the same physics as everything else, as does his inventions, or the reapers.  These words still get used in a way where man is not just another animal, a holdover from Religion - but that's outdated.

But just to be clear here, the fact that it's evolution does not make it good, right, or acceptable.  Evolution is completely amoral - it's a description of what happens, not a plan. 

Evolution is most surely amoral.Simply it popped up in thread after someone compared evolving to ****** Sapiens to synthesis and it evolved from there.
But you are still wrong. Creature living in post-synthesis universe will indeed be part of evolution process that would not stop after green magic. Green wave however is the force that actually physically rewrites the genes. It has nothing to do with being part of evolution , organisms do not adapt - they are changed. Whatever those are after synthesis - they are green not because they were fittest,but because they were rewritten by that wave.
To clarify - creatures adapting to sudden ice age  - this is evolution. Breeding sheep with long fur - this is evolution. Releasing cold-resistance-gene wave without any nessesity for such - this is artificial change. Creatures affected will live according to natural selection laws, but the change was not part of those laws, it was artificial.
 

are you defining it as "artificial" objectively? tell me what "artificial" means, then tell me it does not apply to evolutiion.

and tell me the gap between a type II civilization and a type III. then tell me it does not scale to the gap between a type III and a type IV. than tell me if your conservatism will be of any use to us in the case of a type IV-Reaper scenario.

[Caldari Ghost]

Phatose wrote...

jstme wrote...

Evolution is most surely amoral.Simply it popped up in thread after someone compared evolving to ****** Sapiens to synthesis and it evolved from there.
But you are still wrong. Creature living in post-synthesis universe will indeed be part of evolution process that would not stop after green magic. Green wave however is the force that actually physically rewrites the genes. It has nothing to do with being part of evolution , organisms do not adapt - they are changed. Whatever those are after synthesis - they are green not because they were fittest,but because they were rewritten by that wave.
To clarify - creatures adapting to sudden ice age  - this is evolution. Breeding sheep with long fur - this is evolution. Releasing cold-resistance-gene wave without any nessesity for such - this is artificial change. Creatures affected will live according to natural selection laws, but the change was not part of those laws, it was artificial.
 

I'm not really sure I understand the thrust of your arguement.  If it's that the green wave is synthetic and therefore not part of nature, I simply disagree.  I see it as as much part of nature as everythign else.

If it's that living organisms are changed, instead of mutations between generations causing difference, you may have a point.  I'm not sure though - I'd need to check how the evolution treats existing examples, like plasmid exchanging DNA in bacteria to see whether that's something considered outside of the theory. 

anything that affects the diversity of life is part of evolution.

[Caldari Ghost]

Auld Wulf wrote...

What I don't get is why they keep pushing the Synthesis-as-evil thing when it's their problem that they don't get it. Clearly it can be perceived in another way, because many other people do, and there's a mountain of information regarding that in the Synthesis compendium. As I've said before, to see anything evil in Synthesis reflects upon the person, not upon the story.

I think to see evil you have to want to see evil, in which case you tend to see evil with abortion clinics, or smartphones, or computers, or the Internet, or any other technology which has uplifted us above base animals. I mean, the very infrastructure we've created as a society has uplifted us beyond what an animal is capable of -- as I've pointed out, we can phone for medics to come and save a life, we are far above animals because of what we can create.

One day we'll be able to create Synthesis. As I've said, I just see Synthesis as a positive, optimistic, poetic look at what humanity can be if we just stop all the fighting and killing long enough to create a strong infrastructure of understanding. For some people, that's unimaginable, because they might revel in the conflict, and the evils, and the horrors, but I don't. I actually like where our advancements are taking us. I want to think we have the capacity to become something better.

Synthesis is showing us the 'something better,' but some people see Synthesis as a horror because people aren't running around and killing each other. Personally, I see that as kind of screwed up.

where is that " yeeeaahhhhhh" soundclip when you need it?

[Caldari Ghost]

Mcfly616 wrote...

evil?

[Caldari Ghost]

mass perfection wrote...

Sovereign: "...a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it."

EDI: "....reach a level of existence I can not even imagine."

a meaningless observation.

[Caldari Ghost]

Robosexual wrote...

By this stage I'm sure we've all realised morality is subjective.

this post deserves some attention.

[FlamingBoy]

Just because morality is subjective, that is not the "be all and end all" excuse to get out of the argument. Its nothing more than a cop-out to get out of the work of actually having to defend your argument with logic and your own personal take (aka subjectiveness) on the issue at hand.

Discussion is the whole point of Mass Effect, Mass Effect was created to explore complex issues, most notably "how to define a life" . The game exists to make you question your self, your morality, and how you define others. If you played Mass Effect and all you can muster from the experience is that its "subjective", then the experience has been a waste of time.

This whole subjective argument... Its a roadblock to intelligent discussion. The word "idiot" comes from the classical Greek "idoites" which essentially means a person who could not part of the public society (they considered this to be very important), the Ancient Greeks (the origins of most of Western Civilization thought) saw debate and arguing in their government as the highest form of intelligence hence if you were an idoites , it essentially means you have no opinion and you are not worth knowing.

If a question is put to you and the only think you can put forth is that "my opinion is subjective" with out finding the root reason of yours or my "subjectiveness" in the first place, From what cultural, political, personal reasons it comes from..... Well... It is better not to post.

[Caldari Ghost]

......bump