553 réponses à ce sujet

[alienatedflea]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't see Synthesis as evil, just boring, great big happy pill for the galaxy with absolutely nothing interesting going for it. 

Or beneficial. Apparently, Synthesis is inevitable anyway, so why would I force transhumanism on the masses when I can kill the Reapers now and let people choose it for themselves later? 

how again is synthesis forced on people?  Do I need to watch the ending again because I do not believe I saw anyone resisting the colorful bubbles in ANY of the endings...expect for the normandy which was probably due to the fact that it was an energy blast that could and did overload the ship and it crashed...effin' destroyers...

Nobody had time to react before it was already done to them.

If I jabbed you in the back with a syringe (contents unknown to both me and you) while you were ahead of me waiting for the subway, would you argue that it wasn't a violation against your person because you never saw it coming and thus didn't resist?

you are bringing violence into the mix...nothing violent happen...in fact, everyone (regardless of the ending) was cheering because the reapers either left or died....your point is invalid...

[jacob taylor416]

alienatedflea wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't see Synthesis as evil, just boring, great big happy pill for the galaxy with absolutely nothing interesting going for it. 

Or beneficial. Apparently, Synthesis is inevitable anyway, so why would I force transhumanism on the masses when I can kill the Reapers now and let people choose it for themselves later? 

how again is synthesis forced on people?  Do I need to watch the ending again because I do not believe I saw anyone resisting the colorful bubbles in ANY of the endings...expect for the normandy which was probably due to the fact that it was an energy blast that could and did overload the ship and it crashed...effin' destroyers...

Nobody had time to react before it was already done to them.

If I jabbed you in the back with a syringe (contents unknown to both me and you) while you were ahead of me waiting for the subway, would you argue that it wasn't a violation against your person because you never saw it coming and thus didn't resist?

you are bringing violence into the mix...nothing violent happen...in fact, everyone (regardless of the ending) was cheering because the reapers either left or died....your point is invalid...

First off there's an entire thread for people asking why no one's cheering in the synthesis ending.  Second, Synthesis effects the brain so it could possible cause you to think differently; in fact your doing the same thing as rewriting the geth heritics in ME2, except it's oganics and synthetics not just geth.

[alienatedflea]

Redbelle wrote...

......... and one more thing. Who died and said Shepard was now the dually elected leader of all life in the galaxy and that he had the agency to decide that everyone should be

Humanity's fate was left in shepard's hands by making sure he made it to the beam
Just by the act, he was the one to carry out an impossible decision...he had all life in the galaxy in his hand and had their consent by that act.

[jacob taylor416]

alienatedflea wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

......... and one more thing. Who died and said Shepard was now the dually elected leader of all life in the galaxy and that he had the agency to decide that everyone should be

Humanity's fate was left in shepard's hands by making sure he made it to the beam
Just by the act, he was the one to carry out an impossible decision...he had all life in the galaxy in his hand and had their consent by that act.

They were trying to get anyone to the beam, not just Shepard, and I'm pretty sure that just because a guy runs into a beam does not mean he has the consent of every living organism in the galaxy.

[alienatedflea]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

First off there's an entire thread for people asking why no one's cheering in the synthesis ending.  Second, Synthesis effects the brain so it could possible cause you to think differently; in fact your doing the same thing as rewriting the geth heritics in ME2, except it's oganics and synthetics not just geth.

so...I was wrong about cheering but I do not see any resentment from anyone after synthesis occurs..if something happened to you without your consent, I would imagine you would be acting differently...

[xlegionx]

alienatedflea wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

......... and one more thing. Who died and said Shepard was now the dually elected leader of all life in the galaxy and that he had the agency to decide that everyone should be

Humanity's fate was left in shepard's hands by making sure he made it to the beam
Just by the act, he was the one to carry out an impossible decision...he had all life in the galaxy in his hand and had their consent by that act.

That's when they thought all the Crucible would do is destroy the Reapers, not when it changged who they were at a genetic level. Two extremely different circumstances that shouldn't be confused

[alienatedflea]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

They were trying to get anyone to the beam, not just Shepard, and I'm pretty sure that just because a guy runs into a beam does not mean he has the consent of every living organism in the galaxy.

he sure does...he or she made it to the beam to stop the reapers which gives them the authority to make your colorful decision...there is no consent needed.

[alienatedflea]

xlegionx wrote...

That's when they thought all the Crucible would do is destroy the Reapers, not when it changged who they were at a genetic level. Two extremely different circumstances that shouldn't be confused

first off, no one KNEW what the crucible did...so it was based on luck that the weapon would do anything at all...

[jacob taylor416]

alienatedflea wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

First off there's an entire thread for people asking why no one's cheering in the synthesis ending.  Second, Synthesis effects the brain so it could possible cause you to think differently; in fact your doing the same thing as rewriting the geth heritics in ME2, except it's oganics and synthetics not just geth.

so...I was wrong about cheering but I do not see any resentment from anyone after synthesis occurs..if something happened to you without your consent, I would imagine you would be acting differently...

You're missing my point, synthesis could literally brainwash you into accepting it and anything else it wishes, so if you're okay with that, than that's your opinion, but it does need to be stated. 

[AresKeith]

alienatedflea wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

They were trying to get anyone to the beam, not just Shepard, and I'm pretty sure that just because a guy runs into a beam does not mean he has the consent of every living organism in the galaxy.

he sure does...he or she made it to the beam to stop the reapers which gives them the authority to make your colorful decision...there is no consent needed.

I'm pretty sure people would want the opinion for something like Synthesis to happen to them

[jacob taylor416]

alienatedflea wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

They were trying to get anyone to the beam, not just Shepard, and I'm pretty sure that just because a guy runs into a beam does not mean he has the consent of every living organism in the galaxy.

he sure does...he or she made it to the beam to stop the reapers which gives them the authority to make your colorful decision...there is no consent needed.

 
Shepard was in a position with limited information and insight, he had no time to call every one in the galaxy to make sure they were okay with synthesis, so you're right that consent wasn't necessarily needed, but there's a difference between consent not being needed and having a person's consent. 

[alienatedflea]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

You're missing my point, synthesis could literally brainwash you into accepting it and anything else it wishes, so if you're okay with that, than that's your opinion, but it does need to be stated. 

synthesis changes your DNA...not your brain...your point is flawed.  Everyone of your team mates were still emotional and themselves when they were at the memorial wall...there brains were not tampered with...
Basically, it made everyone equal by making everyone feel connected to one another....

[jacob taylor416]

alienatedflea wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

You're missing my point, synthesis could literally brainwash you into accepting it and anything else it wishes, so if you're okay with that, than that's your opinion, but it does need to be stated. 

synthesis changes your DNA...not your brain...your point is flawed.  Everyone of your team mates were still emotional and themselves when they were at the memorial wall...there brains were not tampered with...
Basically, it made everyone equal by making everyone feel connected to one another....

I'm done at this point. Do you even know what DNA does? If you can change a person's DNA than you can change thier very being, if I could manipulate your DNA like synthesis does, I could turn you into a fly eating iguana. 

[Asharad Hett]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

synthesis changes your DNA...not your brain..

The brain consists of cells that consists of mitochondria which consists of DNA.   Please tell me how the brain is not affected if the DNA is changed?

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 26 mai 2013 - 06:40 .

[Redbelle]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

......... and one more thing. Who died and said Shepard was now the dually elected leader of all life in the galaxy and that he had the agency to decide that everyone should be

Humanity's fate was left in shepard's hands by making sure he made it to the beam
Just by the act, he was the one to carry out an impossible decision...he had all life in the galaxy in his hand and had their consent by that act.

They were trying to get anyone to the beam, not just Shepard, and I'm pretty sure that just because a guy runs into a beam does not mean he has the consent of every living organism in the galaxy.

Hackett - "Men! And Women..... And the....bumpy faced cat creature's...."

<whisper> "Their called Krogan sir".

Hackett - "Yes Krogan, I...... <cough> knew that. WE are all gathered here today to run you towards a beam of energy and/or light with the express purpose of getting at least one you into it. And I won't lie...... many of the Krogan won't be coming back since I intend to send them in first as expendable canon fodder where....... where are they going? DAMN the plan's gone completely out the window!!!"

<Hackett pull out a brown paper bag and breath's rapidly into it several time before putting it away>

Hackett - "Very well. The new plan is to run down and hope to luck that Harbinger doesn't drop in and kill everyone. And let me make this VERY clear! I only want you to open the Citadel arms and make the Crucible work.... UNLESS!!! It turns out to be a magic dohickey Star Trek trade marked DNA wand like they had in Voyager. You know? The one that allowed The Doctor to magically transform a crewman back into a man in a day. Right after they spent a week transforming into something aweful that bites the Captain and kidnaps her to make babies on some distant planet...... IT.... HAPPENED.... PEOPLE"! 

"Oh, And try not to do anything that will kill our allies...... We just want dead Reapers. No one else. OK? Dead. Reapers. Only. People".

And make sure! If someone walks up to you that you have never met and starts trying to talk you out of killing Reapers to end the war..... DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM!!! Shoot them in the head. Unless it trigger's an event. In fact check your ending version's because sometimes it's safe to shoot a person in the head and sometimes it's..... OK there's the signal. Good luck all"!

"And one last thing! None of you are so special that you have the consent of the galaxy to do something that affect's the entire Galaxy! Dead. Reapers. Only!  Write it down on your hand somewhere if you think you'll forget. We only want to kill The Reapers.......ok?... O.K??? Ok! Good luck again..... I really mean it this time".

Modifié par Redbelle, 26 mai 2013 - 06:55 .

[Redbelle]

Asharad Hett wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

synthesis changes your DNA...not your brain..

The brain consists of cells that consists of mitochondria which consists of DNA.   Please tell me how the brain is not affected if the DNA is changed?

Why does the husk stop attacking the solider in the ECDLC in the synth ending if it's base motivation, or over riding thought to kill has not been altered?

The decision to kill the soldier may have been programmed into it. And it's brain processes that request to move arms and legs to achieve that aim. Yet it stops..... and critically, does not restart once it recover's from the wave.

The husk has been altered to not want to kill.... that implies synthesis has a mental control element to it in that being synthesised alter's motivation's. Motivation's are essentially some sort of decision based sequence to acheive an effect. Therefore, no longer wanting to kill the soldier, we can speculate that synthesis alter's the brain. This from a race who can indoctrinate. So the Reapers have that expertise to affect the brain.

It can be said that synthesis is a mean's of physical transformation and brainwashing to create peole capable of carrying out the Catalyst's Utopia vision. But the way it does is so facist in removing natural life deemed unfit by the Catalyst, into what it think's is the pinncale of evolution....

The Cat does not seem to understand evolution that well if it think's evolution is ever final. Though it can be final if a species goes into an evolutionary dead end and then dies out from being unable to compete.

[Phatose]

I disagree. Behavior modification does not equate with mind control.

Castration, for example, will essentially annihilate the male sex drive. That's a distinct behavioral modification, yet were you to characterize that as mind control or brainwashing, you would simply be wrong.

Changing motivations can be very simple - transfer of information. We see that all the time in every conversation. It may be that husks, through the huskification process, arrive at the conclusion that all organics are evil and must be destroyed, and the wave is simply proof that all organics are not evil.

Sheer speculation, yes, but that's the point. We don't know what the husk's motivation was for attacking in the first place - they're not exactly chatty - and we're not told why it stopped. Jumping directly to mind control is very premature.

[Redbelle]

Phatose wrote...

I disagree. Behavior modification does not equate with mind control.

Castration, for example, will essentially annihilate the male sex drive. That's a distinct behavioral modification, yet were you to characterize that as mind control or brainwashing, you would simply be wrong.

Changing motivations can be very simple - transfer of information. We see that all the time in every conversation. It may be that husks, through the huskification process, arrive at the conclusion that all organics are evil and must be destroyed, and the wave is simply proof that all organics are not evil.

Sheer speculation, yes, but that's the point. We don't know what the husk's motivation was for attacking in the first place - they're not exactly chatty - and we're not told why it stopped. Jumping directly to mind control is very premature.

True. And the castration point holds up. But even so......

Mind control may be overstating it. However, for it to stop so suddenly does imply a degree of mental alteration on top of the physical alteration. Processing new information to the point that you adapt to circumstances takes time. The halt was near as.... immediate. And further to the point. The soldier did not shoot the husk when it was down. Had the transformation been purely physcial then the soldier, seeing what he views as an enemy combatant that was just moment's ago rushing him, falter, he would have taken the opportunity to shoot that one, along with the other he had previously shot on account that he has no reason to doubt it's intent as being any different.

Yet both hold fire? Because they have circuit board skin? There is something in that which does not add up. Unless you add a mental download telling them to accept each other. In which case their motivation's have changed, but not of their own free will.

I don't mean that they will live their live's according to some other's will. Just that in that moment, they were forced to obey the command 'stop fighting' from an external source. Which, if the possibility is accepted, raises further questions. Such as, given comments made in the past that orgs can fight orgs, and synth's can fight synths, and orgs and synth's can fight each other. Is synthesis really a Utopia 'everyone get's along' state. Or is their something working in the background to keep things passive given that politics and the allocation of resources are just two of the thing's that their is still reason to conflict over?

The implication I see as possible is that they are free to live as they please. But if thought's of conflict emerge from their minds they are either suppressed, or no longer have the capacity to see conflict as an option. Therefore making this Utopian peace an enforced state of being.

Modifié par Redbelle, 26 mai 2013 - 08:40 .

[SpamBot2000]

Phatose wrote...

I disagree. Behavior modification does not equate with mind control.

Castration, for example, will essentially annihilate the male sex drive. That's a distinct behavioral modification, yet were you to characterize that as mind control or brainwashing, you would simply be wrong.

Perhaps this just goes to show that we are not just reducible to our cognition, like many here seem to think. 

Oh, and it is pretty novel to argue for a universal procedure based on its similarity to castration, so points for that at least.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 mai 2013 - 09:08 .

[Lavaeolus]

The husk probably stops because it was, beforehand, controlled by the Reapers. Completely indoctrianted, as it were. With that indoctrination gone, it's either just been enterred into a brand new world and is vastly confused or is now a human oncemore -- depending on whether you view the husks as the dead brought back to life, or new life made from their corpses.

As for the soldier, I have no doubt they are also vastly confused, and thus stop to see what happens. There are probably also a whole bunch of off-screen soldiers who simply go on to kill the enemy, but showing that would sort of ruin the flow.

[Dendio1]

mass perfection wrote...

 I see good in Synthesis but the bad in it seems to outweigh it.Convince meto believe otherwise or try to justify it.

Good and evil are subjective. I'd be more open to synthesis if it weren't for shepard dying

[Synergizer]

Many of the themes in mass effect were about diversity, freedom of expression and self-identity. Synthesis basically denies the galaxy these things, forcing everyone to be the same so they will not be in conflict.

As Legion said to Shepard, the Reapers forced an illogical conclusion on the Geth as it was preferable to a continual schism. Reapers see diversity as conflict, Shepard could unite the diverse races and cultures in the Galaxy proving the reapers were wrong - the reapers solution? Synthesis? I don't buy it.
I REFUSE ALL THESE OPTIONS!

[Reorte]

alienatedflea wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

First off there's an entire thread for people asking why no one's cheering in the synthesis ending.  Second, Synthesis effects the brain so it could possible cause you to think differently; in fact your doing the same thing as rewriting the geth heritics in ME2, except it's oganics and synthetics not just geth.

so...I was wrong about cheering but I do not see any resentment from anyone after synthesis occurs..if something happened to you without your consent, I would imagine you would be acting differently...

And that's one thing about it which makes it all the more creepy and disturbing because an awful lot of people would be resentful, even ones who might've chosen for themselves if was optional. The whole EC Synthesis ending has a really strong propaganda vibe about it. It makes about as much sense as if one of the endings had killed everyone under 10 years old and you just saw all the parents looking cheerful and non-resentful.

[Seival]

Synergizer wrote...

Many of the themes in mass effect were about diversity, freedom of expression and self-identity. Synthesis basically denies the galaxy these things, forcing everyone to be the same so they will not be in conflict.

As Legion said to Shepard, the Reapers forced an illogical conclusion on the Geth as it was preferable to a continual schism. Reapers see diversity as conflict, Shepard could unite the diverse races and cultures in the Galaxy proving the reapers were wrong - the reapers solution? Synthesis? I don't buy it.
I REFUSE ALL THESE OPTIONS!

By default those diverse races have tens of reasons to hate and kill each other. Only after they understood (too late of course) they are really on the brink of extinction they agreed to cooperate. The Reapers are the only reason for that cooperation, as they are the very reason why galactic civilization even exists.

Battle for Rannoch proves that too different entities will always end up in full-scale conflict that will devastate the entire worlds. It doesn't matter how hard you try to bring the peace. Memory of that achievement will fade eventually, and a new war will begin. That will happen again and again, while the entities are still alien to each other. Eventually this will end up in few habitable worlds turned into a lifeless rocks, and extinction of one of the entities (or both of them). ...And the habitable worlds' quantity is limited, you know? Only Synthetics can live on lifeless rocks forever.

Synthesis doesn't remove diversity completely. But it ensures that different living beings stop being alien to each other.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Synergizer wrote...

Many of the themes in mass effect were about diversity, freedom of expression and self-identity. Synthesis basically denies the galaxy these things, forcing everyone to be the same so they will not be in conflict.

As Legion said to Shepard, the Reapers forced an illogical conclusion on the Geth as it was preferable to a continual schism. Reapers see diversity as conflict, Shepard could unite the diverse races and cultures in the Galaxy proving the reapers were wrong - the reapers solution? Synthesis? I don't buy it.
I REFUSE ALL THESE OPTIONS!

<snip>

Battle for Rannoch proves that too different entities will always end up in full-scale conflict that will devastate the entire worlds. It doesn't matter how hard you try to bring the peace. Memory of that achievement will fade eventually, and a new war will begin. That will happen again and again, while the entities are still alien to each other. 

So for all intents and purposes, the argument is we're in our own cycle and should be forcibly 'upgraded' past this using a psysical and mental conditioning?

Where does that train of thought end? If all living things does not conform to a indivdual's view of what life ought to be like? What? They'll change it again?

A warning of messing around with the nature of the human condition and all it entails can be found in Joss Whedon's Serenity, where making a planet more passive, and easier to rule, resulted in the inhabitant's of that planet abandoning the will to live because someone made them so passive they lost the will to fight for their own lives. This manifested as a person not giving into the need to eat, drink etc.... they just lost their will to live. Stopped where they were, and.... I want to say waited, but they weren't even waiting for death. They just stopped wanting to be alive. And eventually they did. And all because someone botched the math on rewriting the human condition

Synthesis, if you want to go down that route, may be fine for a little while. Until someone else decides that life needs another little tweak here and there to make life more idealised.

You can argue 'Oh we are already governed by other's and have to live according to rules already'...... but the fact is we are ultimately free to live. And free to be alive according to our terms. We can struggle to live on our terms and make our own choices. Synthesis takes away these base freedom's and removes an individuals responsibiltiy that comes with that freedom.

Or to put it another way. Once you give in to an easy fix and relinquish the freedom to choose how to live, under synthesis, you'll never have the option of fighting to get it back.

Modifié par Redbelle, 26 mai 2013 - 02:39 .