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Could a Synthesis supporter justify the evil of Synthesis?


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#51
Auld Wulf

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xlegionx wrote...

It does matter if there's no explanation.

Oh you kids and your fetishism with current day reality and the inability to look beyond the very moment we're in right now. Even Star Trek didn't explain much, it just had technobabble hokum that anyone with a modicum of physics education wholly recognised as such. Technobabble hokum isn't an explanation, it's filler. Whether there's technobabble hokum as filler or not is a matter of taste.

Want an example? Star Trek transporters work because of Heisenberg Compensators. That's the explanation, that's a fine example of technobabble hokum right there. I mean, their lead technical director got a call once from someone asking them how those Heisenberg Compensators work. His reply was to say 'very nicely, thank you' before hanging up the phone. He found that amusing.

Most Star Trek fans are able to recognise what technobabble hokum is. Mass Effect fields are technobabble hokum, biotics is all technobabble hokum. It's all "space magic" at the end of the day, because that's the very definition of something we've imagined that doesn't exist yet. That's what both fantasy and sci-fi are about: something we've imagined that doesn't exist yet. That's the crux.

You may be too young to remember, but "fantasy" as called such is actually a fairly new genre. It used to just be sci-fi. Everything was sci-fi. Dragons, spaceships, laser rifles, and magic could exist within the same space, because it was all sci-fi. That's how things were back then, before things got stratified into much less interesting sub-genres. (Less imaginative ones, at that, since ideas used to be bigger than they are now and fiction used to be wilder and less segmented.)

Fiction is, essentially, to say it: Something that hasn't happened, yet.

So, sci-fi is... deep breath... Things we've imagined that don't exist, happening in scenarios we've imaginedt hat haven't happened. It's sad that I have to teach people this, because this is basically storytelling 101, and I'd like to think that schools should be teaching this sort of thing. This is the cornerstone of fiction, right here. If it's not fiction then it's a documentary of some sort, that's what separates the two. Things that happen in fiction are things that haven't occurred in reality.

As such, if you set something far enough in the future, you cannot explain it. You can fake the explanation, but people educated in the correct fields are going to see right through that and it's going to be embarrassing. Or you can just say "to heck with it" and not explain how things work. You can just throw the odd bit of hokum out and say you're done with it -- and that's exactly how Star Trek is. How much hokum you have is just a matter of taste, but at the end of the day, it is still just hokum.

Look at Doctor Who -- how does a TARDIS work? A TARDIS in and of itself is what you BSN kids would call "space magic" because it can't be explained yet. It's something that we desire in that we'd like to know, and we'd one day like to be able to create it. But you can't explain it according to modern day science. You can't explain it because if you could we'd be building them. So all you can do is put it there as an ideal that one day we might be able to create.

And if anyone asks? All you can do is throw in the hokum. The technobabble. The utter nonsense. And hope that no one is looking too closely. Project Lazarus is no different than Warp Drives, Synthesis is no different than Transporters. And none of this is ever explained. Show me something from Star Trek that stands as an explanation and... well, I'm sorry, I'd just have to laugh at you. It's technobabble hokum, not an explanation.

Again, some people like technobabble hokum, but that is not an explanation. There are no valid explanations in sci-fi. So what, pray tell, do you want? If it's bad for there to be no explanation, then all sci-fi ever written must be awful by your standards.

Sigh.

#52
DarkNova50

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Astartes Marine wrote...

Sentient husks doesn't sound beautiful to me, rather it sounds like something out of the minds of John Carpenter or Clive Barker. Nightmarish.


Indeed. Like in Doctor Who, when the Cybermen get their emotions back, and die from the sheer horror of what's happened to them. I think sentient husks is probably a surefire recipe for a dramatic jump in suicide rates. And remember what Mordin said about the Collectors and Husks. They're not really alive anymore, everything's been 'replaced by tech.'

Plus, it's possible to get the Quarians and Geth to cooperate, negating the need for synthesis to begin with. Even if you kill all the synthetics, it's been proven that they can work together, and that the Catalyst's logic is faulty.

#53
Clayless

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DarkNova50 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

Sentient husks doesn't sound beautiful to me, rather it sounds like something out of the minds of John Carpenter or Clive Barker. Nightmarish.


Indeed. Like in Doctor Who, when the Cybermen get their emotions back, and die from the sheer horror of what's happened to them. I think sentient husks is probably a surefire recipe for a dramatic jump in suicide rates. And remember what Mordin said about the Collectors and Husks. They're not really alive anymore, everything's been 'replaced by tech.'

Plus, it's possible to get the Quarians and Geth to cooperate, negating the need for synthesis to begin with. Even if you kill all the synthetics, it's been proven that they can work together, and that the Catalyst's logic is faulty.


We shouldn't avoid things because they make us uncomfortable. A husk gaining life isn't inherently bad, in fact I see that as a good thing. If I could give life or take it, I would give it.

Catalyst said the peace wont last, unfortunately all outcomes of the Geth-Quarian conflict don't disprove that.

#54
GipsyDangeresque

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The Doctor is a known supporter of the Destroy option when he's faced with no other choice. (The Last Great Time War, the Parting of the Ways, the Star Whale)

He refuses to allow himself or anyone else to be unto a god because it becomes too dangerous in the long run (no Control) and he believes desperately in free will and not making decisions for other people, and believing in the spirit of Humanity (and the rest of the galaxy) to do good for good's own sake, even when he knows they'll make mistakes before the end (he won't perform Synthesis... well, in this case the decision is made for a different reason. He's a time lord and we don't need a galaxy full of every living being having time lord dna, I don't think the multiverse could take it.)

Then again, the Doctor would have taken a fourth option, he would refuse and then immediately achieve a conventional victory by throwing a satsuma at the Catalyst and Sonic-ing the main control system on the Reapers or something.

He'd probably find a way to release the Reapers from the cycle and being controlled by the Catalyst without altering anyone's DNA, and then just try to negotiate and hope for peace.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 12:46 .


#55
The Night Mammoth

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What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?

#56
Stormcutter

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DarkNova50 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

Sentient husks doesn't sound beautiful to me, rather it sounds like something out of the minds of John Carpenter or Clive Barker. Nightmarish.


Indeed. Like in Doctor Who, when the Cybermen get their emotions back, and die from the sheer horror of what's happened to them. I think sentient husks is probably a surefire recipe for a dramatic jump in suicide rates. And remember what Mordin said about the Collectors and Husks. They're not really alive anymore, everything's been 'replaced by tech.'

Plus, it's possible to get the Quarians and Geth to cooperate, negating the need for synthesis to begin with. Even if you kill all the synthetics, it's been proven that they can work together, and that the Catalyst's logic is faulty.


The Catalyst's logic is faulty as long as the Quarians survive Rannoch. Its belief is that the Created will always destroy their Creators. Whether you destroyed the Geth or made peace, you showed that the Creators can handle their own creations.

Remember that the Catalyst doesn't care for synthetic life at all. That's not in it's programming. It only cares about so far as to ensure that they don't wipe out organics.

#57
spirosz

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Seival wrote...

Good and bad are just words. Each person understands them in his/her/its own way.


Oh god, what happened to your avatar. 

#58
Stormcutter

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My opposition to Synthesis lies in the fact that it denies every single being in the galaxy the right of self-determination from the instant it is used. No one is consulted. Shepard simply decides, because the creator of his mortal enemies tells him so, that it is the perfect solution and damn everyone else's opinion.

Many would oppose it and not just Luddites. As an example, Mordin would have opposed it, and he's one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the galaxy. Shepard has no right to force that on billions or even trillions of unwilling people.

#59
GipsyDangeresque

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Has anyone approached the concept of war between organics and synthetics from a different angle? One that doesn't discriminate between the two?

Basically, if organics and synthetics should be treated equally and fairly, then the Catalyst's problem boils down to conflict between sentient beings is inevitable.

I agree, and see no reason to change this or observe any problem able to be solved. You can't magic away free will and create world peace. People will always kill people for something stupid, or something important. You can't change that, it's free will. It's what makes the world what it is.

Synthetics will always fight Organics? Are you kidding me? ORGANICS will always fight and kill Organics. And even when you blend them all together, war will break out someday anyway- be it 1,000 or 10,000 years later. You're trying to fight the nature of individuality, and that's stupid.

#60
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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spirosz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Good and bad are just words. Each person understands them in his/her/its own way.


Oh god, what happened to your avatar. 

Irony.

#61
Clayless

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.

#62
AresKeith

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Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


Awakened Collectors aren't canon

#63
xlegionx

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@ Auld Wulf:

I recognize that Element Zero is in all likelihood a bunch of garbage. But I still prefer "Technobabble hokum" to absolutely no explanation at all. It gives the universe a slightly greater sense of plausibility. in the case of these husks, there's nothing, just "oh, these husks that were basically marionette corpses a few seconds ago are now self-aware and alive. This makes perfect sense"

So, no all sci-fi is not bad by my standards. but when some explanation (not necessarily valid by today's science) is given, it allows me to imagine, as you like to point out what sci-fi is. Because, hey, maybe element zero is a real thing and we just haven't found it yet. imagination is a good thing, and I appreciate it.

Modifié par xlegionx, 23 mai 2013 - 06:55 .


#64
Clayless

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Stormcutter wrote...

My opposition to Synthesis lies in the fact that it denies every single being in the galaxy the right of self-determination from the instant it is used. No one is consulted. Shepard simply decides, because the creator of his mortal enemies tells him so, that it is the perfect solution and damn everyone else's opinion.

Many would oppose it and not just Luddites. As an example, Mordin would have opposed it, and he's one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the galaxy. Shepard has no right to force that on billions or even trillions of unwilling people.


It can't soley be that though. Destroy changes the universe on a dramatic scale and straight up comits genocide, removing choice completely.

Control doesn't remove individual choice, but does have this whole police state angle to it.

Synthesis grants more choice and allows everyone to decide how they want to deal with the situation themselves.

AresKeith wrote...

Awakened Collectors aren't canon


Source?

Modifié par Robosexual, 23 mai 2013 - 12:56 .


#65
The Night Mammoth

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Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


That wouldn't inspire much confidence, personally. The Awakened Collectors were driven entirely by their need for vengence against the Reapers. 

#66
DarkNova50

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Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


"Shoot the tube, Shepard! Shoot the tube!"

#67
GipsyDangeresque

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Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


Inevitabely, most will remember the horror of their transformation and go insane. Not to say that there isn't some hope for a portion of the people to start new lives.

The new life isn't where the most ammoral part of Synthesis comes into play, although it's got more unpleasant represcussions then the accidentally beautiful ones.

#68
justafan

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jstme wrote...

Synthesis is vague with no real explanation as far as ME universe laws and lore is concerned, everyone sees in it different things.
It is like green Rorschach blob.


That is probably the most accurate thing I've read about the whole synthesis controversy to date.

#69
sharkboy421

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Auld Wulf wrote...

-snipping to save space-


You raise a fair point about random, very technical sounding words just thrown together to make an explanation.  And that is true for works like Star Trek and Mass Effect.  But they do have an explanation.

Mass Effect fields for instance, I know are not real.  They do not currently exist today.  However Bioware did give us an explanation as to how they work and what they are.  Its made up and sort of based on physics but not really and that is ok.  As you said, it is fiction. 

What is upsetting to me is that Mass Effect in particular has set a very strong precedent of giving an explanation for everything.  Unlike the original Star Wars where the precedent was just that things are the way they are, Mass Effect told us how things worked.  Synthesis however has no explanation beyond some vague, very non-technical sounding phrases.

For me this is where the dissonance occurs.  Synthesis is supposed to be one of the most important things to happen, yet it does not receive the usual, in-depth explanation that other technologies receive.  It feels inconsistent with the rest of universe. 

Mass Effect doesn't necessarily give correct, real or even good explanation for its technologies, but it does give explanations that are internally coherent.  That is where synthesis feels out of place for me. 

#70
Clayless

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DarkNova50 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


"Shoot the tube, Shepard! Shoot the tube!"


What you're saying is you think it's better to remove choice, to take life, based on uh..?

Maybe some of the Husks would want to die, maybe some of them wouldn't, but it would be their choice.

#71
AresKeith

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Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Awakened Collectors aren't canon


Source?


The fact that the MP is not entirely canon is the source

#72
Clayless

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AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Awakened Collectors aren't canon


Source?


The fact that the MP is not entirely canon is the source


So none, in other words.

#73
GipsyDangeresque

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Robosexual wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?


I'd assume they'd be like the Awakened Collectors. Perhaps a new individual but with "foggy" memories of their past? Like a combination of both then.


"Shoot the tube, Shepard! Shoot the tube!"


What you're saying is you think it's better to remove choice, to take life, based on uh..?

Maybe some of the Husks would want to die, maybe some of them wouldn't, but it would be their choice.


No, you missed the point. It could be morally objectional to force such a choice on beings that have already passed on and died. Their lives aren't there to be taken. You are the one that gives birth, you initiate the whole exchange at your volition. Husks are portrayed as completely dead until you Synthesis Wave them.

In case you didn't know, something you object to on moral grounds is how I define "Evil."

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 01:04 .


#74
DarkNova50

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sharkboy421 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

-snipping to save space-


You raise a fair point about random, very technical sounding words just thrown together to make an explanation.  And that is true for works like Star Trek and Mass Effect.  But they do have an explanation.

Mass Effect fields for instance, I know are not real.  They do not currently exist today.  However Bioware did give us an explanation as to how they work and what they are.  Its made up and sort of based on physics but not really and that is ok.  As you said, it is fiction. 

What is upsetting to me is that Mass Effect in particular has set a very strong precedent of giving an explanation for everything.  Unlike the original Star Wars where the precedent was just that things are the way they are, Mass Effect told us how things worked.  Synthesis however has no explanation beyond some vague, very non-technical sounding phrases.

For me this is where the dissonance occurs.  Synthesis is supposed to be one of the most important things to happen, yet it does not receive the usual, in-depth explanation that other technologies receive.  It feels inconsistent with the rest of universe. 

Mass Effect doesn't necessarily give correct, real or even good explanation for its technologies, but it does give explanations that are internally coherent.  That is where synthesis feels out of place for me. 


Well said. If they'd tried to make it sound plausible within the logic of Mass Effect, like the quantum entanglement communicators, I think people might habe been more accepting of it.

#75
AresKeith

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Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Awakened Collectors aren't canon


Source?


The fact that the MP is not entirely canon is the source


So none, in other words.


Have you even read the description of the Awakened Collectors?