553 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

DarkNova50 wrote...

Yup, that's a real prime choice right there. Live with what I think is best, or go kill yourself. It's not a choice, it's a damn ultimatum.

Live with what other people think is best or go kill yourself? You mean like in real life?

I don't know what choice you think Destroy is obstructing. The Geth and EDI are wiped out, true, but the survivors are free to choose any future they want for themselves. They're not being railroaded down one path thanks to some dubious green space magic. They're not being monitored by "The Man" and his cybernetic cuttlefish goon squad. And they're not being turned into Soylent Green because Shepard couldn't handle being put on the spot.

The price of freedom is steep. If one species has to die so the others can self determinate free from the Reapers, I can live with that.

You say you don't know what choice I think Destroy is obstrucint, and then in your very next sentence you point out which choice it so much as "obstruct", but straight up removed.

If the price of freedom is the advancement of all life, and more freedom and choice for others, I would take that in a heartbeat over genocide and a dark age.

[Cheviot]

AresKeith wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

The cycle can never be broken. The catalyst is merely discriminatory, pointing out that Synthetics will have reasons to fight Organics just as all sentient beings will.

Hybrids will always turn on and kill Hybrids. Synthesis saves nothing from the ravages of war, unless you're naive or the procedure itself is more sinister (brain washing) than most supporters claim.

Yeah, wars will still happen, but not organic against synthetic.

What makes that any better?

Well, there isn't as much chance as an entire form of life being destroyed. 

[AresKeith]

Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Only things I have is Christ Priestly telling Jadebaby that the MP isn't canon in a PM, and the fact that the concept on the MP and its Operations are the only things to consider canon

All you have is a made gimmick character that is literally fan-service to add

That's great but given your track record I'd need like an actual source.

My track record? Now your getting full of yourself

You trying to call a literal fan-service character canon and you yourself made a thread in the MP forum about it

You have no right to that comment and its laughable

[GipsyDangeresque]

Cheviot wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

The cycle can never be broken. The catalyst is merely discriminatory, pointing out that Synthetics will have reasons to fight Organics just as all sentient beings will.

Hybrids will always turn on and kill Hybrids. Synthesis saves nothing from the ravages of war, unless you're naive or the procedure itself is more sinister (brain washing) than most supporters claim.

Yeah, wars will still happen, but not organic against synthetic.

What makes that any better?

Well, there isn't as much chance as an entire form of life being destroyed. 

There's exactly the same amount of chance for any of the life forms still around to be destroyed. You just switched the labels on the box, and genetically modified trillions of beings against their will to do it.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[AresKeith]

Cheviot wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

The cycle can never be broken. The catalyst is merely discriminatory, pointing out that Synthetics will have reasons to fight Organics just as all sentient beings will.

Hybrids will always turn on and kill Hybrids. Synthesis saves nothing from the ravages of war, unless you're naive or the procedure itself is more sinister (brain washing) than most supporters claim.

Yeah, wars will still happen, but not organic against synthetic.

What makes that any better?

Well, there isn't as much chance as an entire form of life being destroyed. 

Which was never gonna happen in the first place

[Stormcutter]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

Destroy- Commits genocide of a fraction of known sapient life in the galaxy, no more than 1% or 2% at max. Grant's complete freedom of choice to the rest. This assuming the Geth weren't killed on Rannoch, in which case the number of AI's is neglible.

Control- More or less right, though the degree depends on Shepard's alignment

Synthesis- Strips away choice from nearly 100% of life in the galaxy, forcing Synthesis upon them. Their only 'choice' is how to react to a violation of their rights and bodies.

So we agree, Destroy removes future choice through genocide, Control is so-so, Synthesis grants more.

What? No. That's the exact opposite of what I said. Are you just trolling? I'll repeat it for you.

Synthesis - Strips away choice from nearly 100% of life in the galaxy.

Modifié par Stormcutter, 23 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

Robosexual wrote...

You say you don't know what choice I think Destroy is obstrucint, and then in your very next sentence you point out which choice it so much as "obstruct", but straight up removed.

If the price of freedom is the advancement of all life, and more freedom and choice for others, I would take that in a heartbeat over genocide and a dark age.

That's not a choice that is morally sound to present to people. Anyone that tries to perform such experiments on corpses is insane and needs to be stopped. When people die, you should grieve and move on, it is a natural part of life.

Synthesis will never create any more "freedom" than Destroy, because both leave the world to it's own devices after the pulse is sent out. Only Control attempts to enfore order and destroy freedom via tyranny.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 01:37 .

[Clayless]

Stormcutter wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

That's not the case, evidence we have:

Collectors gain awareness when released from Reaper control, as implied by the Collector General and shown by the Awakened Collectors.

Husks are capable of intelligence and planning, as seen and heard throughout the Reaper war.

The Husk in Synthesis doesn't retreat, his reaction is similar to the humans.

Collectors are not husks. They're far more advanced and have more biological components. Note that you don't see Awakened Marauders or Husks running around despite the fact that they too are exposed to the Leviathans control.

Husks are capable of planning and intelligence because the Reapers, who direct them, are.

And the Husk's reaction is to crumple to it's knees and stay there. As if, say, any direction had been shut off.

The Collectors are Prothean Husks. They probably have at least the same amount of biological components as the other husks, perhaps even less judging from comments in ME2.

A Reaper possesses a husk when it directs it personally. The Mauraders are seen making decisions along with the other husks that imply intelligence.

No, the Husk reacts the same as the humans, with life in his eyes. He doesn't crumple to his knee's, he moves from all fours onto his knees and looks at the sky along with the humans, after giving a look of confusion and awareness.

[Clayless]

Stormcutter wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

So we agree, Destroy removes future choice through genocide, Control is so-so, Synthesis grants more.

What? No. That's the exact opposite of what I said. Are you just trolling? I'll repeat it for you.

Synthesis - Strips away choice from nearly 100% of life in the galaxy.

That's a direct contradiction to what is shown and told, so I'm just gonna assume you ignored what I said on purpose.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

That's not the case, evidence we have:

Collectors gain awareness when released from Reaper control, as implied by the Collector General and shown by the Awakened Collectors.

Husks are capable of intelligence and planning, as seen and heard throughout the Reaper war.

The Husk in Synthesis doesn't retreat, his reaction is similar to the humans.

Collectors are not husks. They're far more advanced and have more biological components. Note that you don't see Awakened Marauders or Husks running around despite the fact that they too are exposed to the Leviathans control.

Husks are capable of planning and intelligence because the Reapers, who direct them, are.

And the Husk's reaction is to crumple to it's knees and stay there. As if, say, any direction had been shut off.

The Collectors are Prothean Husks. They probably have at least the same amount of biological components as the other husks, perhaps even less judging from comments in ME2.

A Reaper possesses a husk when it directs it personally. The Mauraders are seen making decisions along with the other husks that imply intelligence.

No, the Husk reacts the same as the humans, with life in his eyes. He doesn't crumple to his knee's, he moves from all fours onto his knees and looks at the sky along with the humans, after giving a look of confusion and awareness.

The husks have animal intelligence and instinct at best, otherwise they would wear armor and wield tools like guns. They would attempt to converse with others and yet we never hear anything from them but mindless groaning.

And of course they later react as a human would, they have just been modifyed and given sentience by the Synthesis wave. There was nothing left before then.

[KaiserShep]

The insistence that destroy brings about a new dark age of some kind is flat out wrong. The epilogue confirms this.

[Cheviot]

AresKeith wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

The cycle can never be broken. The catalyst is merely discriminatory, pointing out that Synthetics will have reasons to fight Organics just as all sentient beings will.

Hybrids will always turn on and kill Hybrids. Synthesis saves nothing from the ravages of war, unless you're naive or the procedure itself is more sinister (brain washing) than most supporters claim.

Yeah, wars will still happen, but not organic against synthetic.

What makes that any better?

Well, there isn't as much chance as an entire form of life being destroyed. 

Which was never gonna happen in the first place

Well it happened in ME3, or it could, at least: make the right choices, and the Geth could be wiped out during Priority: Rannoch.  As all the Shepard's who choose control prove, organics have few problems wiping out an entire race of synthetics.  Do you think the synthetics wouldn't make the same decision, if pushed?  They'd already went to the Reapers - who they'd previous refused to follow - for help when the Quarians had killed all the Geth in the Dyson sphere.

[DarkNova50]

Robosexual wrote...

Live with what other people think is best or go kill yourself? You mean like in real life?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you lived in a part of the world where they jam cybernetics and other sorts of neat stuff into your brain without your consent. Where I live we can choose how we treat our bodies, what we put into them, and so on.

You say you don't know what choice I think Destroy is obstrucint, and then in your very next sentence you point out which choice it so much as "obstruct", but straight up removed.

If the price of freedom is the advancement of all life, and more freedom and choice for others, I would take that in a heartbeat over genocide and a dark age.

There isn't a dark age, because the technology is rapidly repaired. It's no darker than it was at the beginning of the original Mass Effect really, when everybody was wandering around asking themselves "Where the hell did all these Geth come from?"

And the destruction of the Geth isn't an deliberate act, but a consequence of Shepard's choice. "I'm sacrificing one species to save X number of species." Sometimes war includes the unpleasant numbers game. The Geth don't get a choice, but their sacrifice means that everybody else does. That's war.

And Synthesis isn't the advancement of all life. It's one entity forcing everybody onto the same highway because it thinks that they're all headed that way eventually, without actually backing up that statement. It's barring those species from self determination, and depriving them of any real choice at all.

[Clayless]

Atemeus wrote...

That's not a choice that is morally sound to present to people. Anyone that tries to perform such experiments on corpses is insane and needs to be stopped. When people die, you should grieve and move on, it is a natural part of life.

Synthesis will never create any more "freedom" than Destroy, because both leave the world to it's own devices after the pulse is sent out. Only Control attempts to enfore order and destroy freedom via tyranny.

Kind of the whole "we shouldn't ignore things that make us uncomfortable". It's not inherently good or bad just because you don't like it.

Destroy removes freedom and choice from the Geth forever.

Synthesis grants it to the Husks and doesn't remove it from anyone. Everyone is free to create their future how they see fit.

When it comes down to it, when compared, Destroy simply stops future choice for an entire race, Synthesis grants more.

[The Night Mammoth]

Robosexual wrote...
No, the Husk reacts the same as the humans, with life in his eyes. He doesn't crumple to his knee's, he moves from all fours onto his knees and looks at the sky along with the humans, after giving a look of confusion and awareness.

My dog sometimes stops jumping around to watch the TV, but I don't think it's suddenly gained a greater level of intelligence. 

[GipsyDangeresque]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

So we agree, Destroy removes future choice through genocide, Control is so-so, Synthesis grants more.

What? No. That's the exact opposite of what I said. Are you just trolling? I'll repeat it for you.

Synthesis - Strips away choice from nearly 100% of life in the galaxy.

That's a direct contradiction to what is shown and told, so I'm just gonna assume you ignored what I said on purpose.

The choice Shepard makes up in the Citadel? You know that one?

Destroy -> Remove choice of self sacrifice from Geth and Edi (2% galactic choice removal for one point in time)
Synthesis -> Remove choice of self modification, what makes you who you are at a genetic level, from all beings (100% galactic choice removal for one point in time)
Control -> Through tyranny, Remove choice for all beings (100& galactic choice removal for millions of years, which will eventually degrade into a reign of terror no matter how kind and understanding your Shepard was in life.)

So can you not think logically, are you a troll, are you deluded? I can't figure it out.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[Stormcutter]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

That's not the case, evidence we have:

Collectors gain awareness when released from Reaper control, as implied by the Collector General and shown by the Awakened Collectors.

Husks are capable of intelligence and planning, as seen and heard throughout the Reaper war.

The Husk in Synthesis doesn't retreat, his reaction is similar to the humans.

Collectors are not husks. They're far more advanced and have more biological components. Note that you don't see Awakened Marauders or Husks running around despite the fact that they too are exposed to the Leviathans control.

Husks are capable of planning and intelligence because the Reapers, who direct them, are.

And the Husk's reaction is to crumple to it's knees and stay there. As if, say, any direction had been shut off.

The Collectors are Prothean Husks. They probably have at least the same amount of biological components as the other husks, perhaps even less judging from comments in ME2.

A Reaper possesses a husk when it directs it personally. The Mauraders are seen making decisions along with the other husks that imply intelligence.

No, the Husk reacts the same as the humans, with life in his eyes. He doesn't crumple to his knee's, he moves from all fours onto his knees and looks at the sky along with the humans, after giving a look of confusion and awareness.

Uh, no. They aren't just husks. The proof of that is in the point you're using to prove your own. Husks and brutes got controlled by the Leviathans easily. The Collectors died en masse, except for rare few.

And that's bull****. The Reapers can make their will present even without directing personally. Look at the Illusive Man in the final confrontation. You can hear the Reapers controlling him, but he's not been possessed. Plus, multiplayer enemy Geth are explicitly 'Geth bodies loaded with Reaper Code' according to Hackett if you make peace with the Geth, so the Reapers canonically have methods of controlling synthetic bodies without assuming direct control.

And what living expression? It's eyes are glowing, as all husks do. It barely has a face, let alone expressions.

[Clayless]

DarkNova50 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Live with what other people think is best or go kill yourself? You mean like in real life?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you lived in a part of the world where they jam cybernetics and other sorts of neat stuff into your brain without your consent. Where I live we can choose how we treat our bodies, what we put into them, and so on.

You get to choose how you treat your bodies? Are you American? If so, have you been circumcised?

Not on the scale of Synthesis of course, but still, no choice in that matter and it's to do with your body. You're forced to live with what other people think is best.

[GipsyDangeresque]

And that is wrong. You realize they're trying to outlaw that kind of thing for a reason, right?

You just admitted it. In your own comparison, you noted that "You're forced..." NO CHOICE. SYNTHESIS PRESENTS NO CHOICE. Thank you.

[HiddenInWar]

nvm

Modifié par HiddenInWar, 23 mai 2013 - 01:56 .

[Wayning_Star]

synthesis is the only way to actually stop the reaper threat and end harvest in the MEU for good. The others work short term, but are flawed.

I thought everyone knew this simple stuff? The game isn't really all that complicated..sheesh.

[Clayless]

Stormcutter wrote...


Uh, no. They aren't just husks. The proof of that is in the point you're using to prove your own. Husks and brutes got controlled by the Leviathans easily. The Collectors died en masse, except for rare few.

And that's bull****. The Reapers can make their will present even without directing personally. Look at the Illusive Man in the final confrontation. You can hear the Reapers controlling him, but he's not been possessed. Plus, multiplayer enemy Geth are explicitly 'Geth bodies loaded with Reaper Code' according to Hackett if you make peace with the Geth, so the Reapers canonically have methods of controlling synthetic bodies without assuming direct control.

And what living expression? It's eyes are glowing, as all husks do. It barely has a face, let alone expressions.

Just to point out, you've already backpedaled on the whole "Husk runs away" thing, your "Crumples to it's knees" was also false, and now you're plain straight up saying it doesn't react.

You tried to say the Collectors have more organic parts that normal husks based on, uh, Mordin saying they're almost completely tech?

You're headcanoning and explicitly ignoring, denying, or plain straight up trying to change the information we have because you don't agree with me. I'm not going to continue this until you start backing up what you're saying, I can't be arsed dealing with someone who changes what they're saying 3 times.

[AresKeith]

Wayning_Star wrote...

synthesis is the only way to actually stop the reaper threat and end harvest in the MEU for good. The others work short term, but are flawed.

I thought everyone knew this simple stuff? The game isn't really all that complicated..sheesh.

So the Reaper threat still exists in Destroy?

[Clayless]

Atemeus wrote...

And that is wrong. You realize they're trying to outlaw that kind of thing for a reason, right?

You just admitted it. In your own comparison, you noted that "You're forced..." NO CHOICE. SYNTHESIS PRESENTS NO CHOICE. Thank you.

You mean, you have no choice in the matter, but it doesn't remove future choice? You're free to react in any way you see fit?

Unlike, say, genocide?

[AresKeith]

Robosexual wrote...

You're headcanoning and explicitly ignoring, denying, or plain straight up trying to change the information we have because you don't agree with me. I'm not going to continue this until you start backing up what you're saying, I can't be arsed dealing with someone who changes what they're saying 3 times.

Which is exactly what you are doing