553 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkNova50]

Robosexual wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Live with what other people think is best or go kill yourself? You mean like in real life?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you lived in a part of the world where they jam cybernetics and other sorts of neat stuff into your brain without your consent. Where I live we can choose how we treat our bodies, what we put into them, and so on.

You get to choose how you treat your bodies? Are you American? If so, have you been circumcised?

Not on the scale of Synthesis of course, but still, no choice in that matter and it's to do with your body. You're forced to live with what other people think is best.

Just out of curiosity, are you the kind of person that, when you play D&D, you wrap yourself in a black cape and boast in a raspy voice "I deny your childish notions of morality"? Because I'm getting that vibe.

Anyway, that is a valid, though extremely minor, example. Yes, it's a body modification you get no say it. But it's almost entirely cosmetic, and doesn't really change the nature of who or what you are. A circumcision isn't going to make a good man bad, or a gay man straight. It's closer to a tattoo than what Synthesis forces onto people.

The choice you're making for the galaxy in that moment is re-writing them down to their DNA, and altering the very fabric of what they are. Nobody should be allowed to make that choice for them.

Do you take away choice for some in Destroy? Absolutely. But at least when you destroy them, they're being destroyed as what they are, what they chose to be. You didn't force them to become something else.

Modifié par DarkNova50, 23 mai 2013 - 01:56 .

[Astartes Marine]

Atemeus wrote...
Control -> Through tyranny, Remove choice for all beings (100& galactic choice removal for millions of years, which will eventually degrade into a reign of terror no matter how kind and understanding your Shepard was in life.)

I can't fully agree with this. 

Personally I'd think I would throw the Reapers into a sun once they outlived their usefulness in repairing the relays and all the worlds they destroyed, get the galaxy is back on it's feat, and humanity was forged into a far stronger empire than it ever was with a new breed of superwarriors to guard it and my undying Shepard in a new body watching over it.

I do agree with your assessment on Synth though, regardless of what it "may" offer it is brought about without anyone's consent and thus is forced.

[Stormcutter]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...


Uh, no. They aren't just husks. The proof of that is in the point you're using to prove your own. Husks and brutes got controlled by the Leviathans easily. The Collectors died en masse, except for rare few.

And that's bull****. The Reapers can make their will present even without directing personally. Look at the Illusive Man in the final confrontation. You can hear the Reapers controlling him, but he's not been possessed. Plus, multiplayer enemy Geth are explicitly 'Geth bodies loaded with Reaper Code' according to Hackett if you make peace with the Geth, so the Reapers canonically have methods of controlling synthetic bodies without assuming direct control.

And what living expression? It's eyes are glowing, as all husks do. It barely has a face, let alone expressions.

Just to point out, you've already backpedaled on the whole "Husk runs away" thing, your "Crumples to it's knees" was also false, and now you're plain straight up saying it doesn't react.

You tried to say the Collectors have more organic parts that normal husks based on, uh, Mordin saying they're almost completely tech?

You're headcanoning and explicitly ignoring, denying, or plain straight up trying to change the information we have because you don't agree with me. I'm not going to continue this until you start backing up what you're saying, I can't be arsed dealing with someone who changes what they're saying 3 times.

You want a definitive statement. Fine. You claim Collectors are the same as husks, with regards to sentience? They aren't and you have no proof otherwise. Husks can be controlled by Leviathan. Collectors either die or become free. That shows that there's a fundamental difference in their composition right there, once that you can't talk your way around. Bring me an Awakened Brute and we'll talk. And Mordin says that many of their key, internal components have been replaced by tech. Not the majority of their bodies like husks have. You can see this, simply by the fact that they bleed more and have a fleshy exterior.

Husks show intelligence in combat? So do multiplayer Geth, which are empty shells loaded with Reaper Code. Much like, hey, the Husks!

And yes, I changed what I said. Sorry about that. The thing crumples to it's knees and stares dully around. That's all. I have no idea how you're extrapolating a fully fledged revival from that.

Modifié par Stormcutter, 23 mai 2013 - 02:01 .

[DarkNova50]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Personally I'd think I would throw the Reapers into a sun once they outlived their usefulness in repairing the relays and all the worlds they destroyed, get the galaxy is back on it's feat, and humanity was forged into a far stronger empire than it ever was with a new breed of superwarriors to guard it and my undying Shepard in a new body watching over it.

That's right before Wrex and the Krogan appeal to the Council for more dakka, right?

[Astartes Marine]

DarkNova50 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
Personally I'd think I would throw the Reapers into a sun once they outlived their usefulness in repairing the relays and all the worlds they destroyed, get the galaxy is back on it's feat, and humanity was forged into a far stronger empire than it ever was with a new breed of superwarriors to guard it and my undying Shepard in a new body watching over it.

That's right before Wrex and the Krogan appeal to the Council for more dakka, right?

The Council?  My humanity would make efforts to strengthen ties with the Krogan, Quarians, and the Geth.  They would be welcome to stand shoulder to shoulder with the new Guardsmen.

[Wayning_Star]

AresKeith wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

synthesis is the only way to actually stop the reaper threat and end harvest in the MEU for good. The others work short term, but are flawed.

I thought everyone knew this simple stuff? The game isn't really all that complicated..sheesh.

So the Reaper threat still exists in Destroy?

huh? Destroy is what arms them, via their catalyst.  It's that chaos thing. Everyone does it in the MEU, build robots to take over where they leave off, then they end up on top of the food chain and whammo, you got chaos.

The 'trick' is that you cannot just destroy that what you built, as it'll just get built again, and you start the cycle over again. That's why the intelligence was designed by the Leviathan to 'find' a solution to the problem of thralls destroying synthetics they build, or get destroyed by them. So really, picking destroy to end the reaper threat is disingenuous folly.

The catalyst and the Leviathan actually explain it all, plus the story codex explains that intelligent machines are NOT to be built or designed in the MEU, but there they are. Goes to show that the 'technology' we all want to destroy AND save together, isn't part of the equation. (well the given equation, if you were to destroy all aspects and history,etc of any traces of Leviathan tech, then Destroy 'could' work..but, doubtful, if statistics have any sway..)

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 23 mai 2013 - 02:07 .

[DarkNova50]

Astartes Marine wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
Personally I'd think I would throw the Reapers into a sun once they outlived their usefulness in repairing the relays and all the worlds they destroyed, get the galaxy is back on it's feat, and humanity was forged into a far stronger empire than it ever was with a new breed of superwarriors to guard it and my undying Shepard in a new body watching over it.

That's right before Wrex and the Krogan appeal to the Council for more dakka, right?

The Council?  My humanity would make efforts to strengthen ties with the Krogan, Quarians, and the Geth.  They would be welcome to stand shoulder to shoulder with the new Guardsmen.

I don't know...that sounds like an awfully pro-alien stance to me...

Whose side are you really on!?

[Clayless]

DarkNova50 wrote...

Anyway, that is a valid, though extremely minor, example. Yes, it's a body modification you get no say it. But it's almost entirely cosmetic, and doesn't really change the nature of who or what you are. A circumcision isn't going to make a good man bad, or a gay man straight. It's closer to a tattoo than what Synthesis forces onto people.

The choice you're making for the galaxy in that moment is re-writing them down to their DNA, and altering the very fabric of what they are. Nobody should be allowed to make that choice for them.

Do you take away choice for some in Destroy? Absolutely. But at least when you destroy them, they're being destroyed as what they are, what they chose to be. You didn't force them to become something else.

Almost entirely cosmetic, AKA, not entirely cosmetic.

The whole conversation we had basically shows this thread is about morality, and this shows that there is no inherently "evil" or bad thing. Some people just don't like husks because they're like, ugly or something, but trying to say that giving them choice and freedom is a bad thing isn't true.

Some people, like you, think that comiting genocide on a race whose defining quality was their fight for survival, for life, is better than letting them have a future and a life. That's seen as being inherently better than granting them, and others, choice and life.

This whole conversation basically shows how good and bad is subjective. It doesn't matter if you disagree with someones choice, that in itself doesn't make the choice evil.

I always feel like these questions should be confronted. You should question why other people think granting choice and life to husks is better than plain executing them, you should want to understand these things, rather than just creating preconceived good and evil morality around it. This is what I find BSN lacks, people are too scared to explain their decisions because other, close minded, people hurl abuse at them based on their subjective view.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Atemeus wrote...
Control -> Through tyranny, Remove choice for all beings (100& galactic choice removal for millions of years, which will eventually degrade into a reign of terror no matter how kind and understanding your Shepard was in life.)

I can't fully agree with this. 

Personally I'd think I would throw the Reapers into a sun once they outlived their usefulness in repairing the relays and all the worlds they destroyed, get the galaxy is back on it's feat, and humanity was forged into a far stronger empire than it ever was with a new breed of superwarriors to guard it and my undying Shepard in a new body watching over it.

I do agree with your assessment on Synth though, regardless of what it "may" offer it is brought about without anyone's consent and thus is forced.

How sure are you that the AI based on you will still follow through with his original intention once he reaches that point? Maybe he needs to be careful, in case Humanity, however strong, is overwhelmed again. It's all just a slippery slope from one logical decision there. And it's a mistake too easily made for all the galactic consequences it could have.

Still, your Shepard can certainly think the way you said going into the decision, and it will have been the correct choice for a non-goody-two-shoes Human-dominance Shepard like the one you were roleplaying to make, lol


Really, the entire dillema breaks down to the fact that Galaxy-wide genetic alteration, in itself, without any other implications, is one of the most evil acts that any living being can commit- more evil than murder, at any time and even on a similar scale. And the scale here isn't even close.

Of course Destroy isn't an ideal choice, hell it isn't even a great choice (none of them are.) It is, however, the best one. It will allow the Geth that can be constructed anew, and any future synthetic races, to live on and prove to the universe how wrong the Catalyst was and simultaneously ends the cycle of harvesting created by the Leviathans forever.

[KaiserShep]

Chaos is tossed around as if its a bad thing.

[dreamgazer]

*squints at thread*

Nah. You kids have fun.

[Stormcutter]

Robosexual wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...

Anyway, that is a valid, though extremely minor, example. Yes, it's a body modification you get no say it. But it's almost entirely cosmetic, and doesn't really change the nature of who or what you are. A circumcision isn't going to make a good man bad, or a gay man straight. It's closer to a tattoo than what Synthesis forces onto people.

The choice you're making for the galaxy in that moment is re-writing them down to their DNA, and altering the very fabric of what they are. Nobody should be allowed to make that choice for them.

Do you take away choice for some in Destroy? Absolutely. But at least when you destroy them, they're being destroyed as what they are, what they chose to be. You didn't force them to become something else.

Almost entirely cosmetic, AKA, not entirely cosmetic.

The whole conversation we had basically shows this thread is about morality, and this shows that there is no inherently "evil" or bad thing. Some people just don't like husks because they're like, ugly or something, but trying to say that giving them choice and freedom is a bad thing isn't true.

Some people, like you, think that comiting genocide on a race whose defining quality was their fight for survival, for life, is better than letting them have a future and a life. That's seen as being inherently better than granting them, and others, choice and life.

This whole conversation basically shows how good and bad is subjective. It doesn't matter if you disagree with someones choice, that in itself doesn't make the choice evil.

I always feel like these questions should be confronted. You should question why other people think granting choice and life to husks is better than plain executing them, you should want to understand these things, rather than just creating preconceived good and evil morality around it. This is what I find BSN lacks, people are too scared to explain their decisions because other, close minded, people hurl abuse at them based on their subjective view.

If, and I use that word purposefully, the husks are still sapient and controlled by the Reapers with their original personalities, then a strong argument could be made for their death being a mercy kill. I mean, would you want to be a husk? Unable to procreate or feel, an organic, likely human mind trapped in a mostly synthetic body that is fundamentally different from what you had on many levels?

It's not hard to imagine that the vast majority of husks would have killed themselves, especially the ones created by fusing multiple husks together.

[Astartes Marine]

DarkNova50 wrote...
I don't know...that sounds like an awfully pro-alien stance to me...
Whose side are you really on!?

I'll not pretend that the Imperium is perfect, that would be a bold faced lie.  After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was forever entombed within the Golden Throne it started on a path of decline and decay, and continuously struggles to survive due to the endless infighting and bureaucracy.  The empire that my Shepard would forge would take some inspiration from the Imperium and then build upon it and improve it. 

The first step would be to take those races that were disregarded by the Council races; the Krogan, the Quarians and their Geth creations, to take the alliances and ties that Shepard forged originally, and further build upon them to bring them and humanity closer together as allies. 

[Cheviot]

Atemeus wrote...
It will allow the Geth that can be constructed anew, and any future synthetic races, to live on and prove to the universe how wrong the Catalyst was and simultaneously ends the cycle of harvesting created by the Leviathans forever.

Synthesis does that too; it removes the Reapers, who had been ruling over the galaxy like the Leviathans, and ends the harvests.  Anyway, Shepard standing in front of the Catalyst proves how wrong the Catalyst was.  It even admits that.

[GipsyDangeresque]

KaiserShep wrote...

Chaos is tossed around as if its a bad thing.

^^ In fact, it is an inevitable part of nature. It's nothing to fear by itself, although certainly anything in extremes is bad, which is why society and the rule of law to protect it's citizens exists.

It's not inherently a bad thing, but it can be a bad thing. But if chaos is bad or not is irrelevant: the important thing to understand is that a green wave of purely genetic re-writing will not remove it, whatever the Catalyst seems to believe. Only a true mental degradation, mind control, the brain death of the universe, could prevent chaos from eventually rising up. Everything has to end sometime.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 02:16 .

[Wayning_Star]

it's really just about the pressure of existence with technology, as existence in the MEU is impossible without it. Organics are simply stuck with levi tech. And with that, chaos/strife, and thus the reaper threat of the cycle and it's pattern of build and destroy.

You have to decide to either go without that technology(fat chance) or learn to live with advanced life forms who just happened to be synthetic.

Apparently these synthetic beings need to understand who and why, just like any other organic being.

You have to end the competition. There is only ONE way to actually pull that one off in the MEU.

The crucible engineers had it figured out.. Shepard helped devise the menu, know full well what it probably would take, especially after communing with the Leviathan.

[Clayless]

Stormcutter wrote...

If, and I use that word purposefully, the husks are still sapient and controlled by the Reapers with their original personalities, then a strong argument could be made for their death being a mercy kill. I mean, would you want to be a husk? Unable to procreate or feel, an organic, likely human mind trapped in a mostly synthetic body that is fundamentally different from what you had on many levels?

It's not hard to imagine that the vast majority of husks would have killed themselves, especially the ones created by fusing multiple husks together.

That's why it's better to let them make that decision. Give them the choice in their future.

[Stormcutter]

Astartes Marine wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...
I don't know...that sounds like an awfully pro-alien stance to me...
Whose side are you really on!?

I'll not pretend that the Imperium is perfect, that would be a bold faced lie.  After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was forever entombed within the Golden Throne it started on a path of decline and decay, and continuously struggles to survive due to the endless infighting and bureaucracy.  The empire that my Shepard would forge would take some inspiration from the Imperium and then build upon it and improve it. 

The first step would be to take those races that were disregarded by the Council races; the Krogan, the Quarians and their Geth creations, to take the alliances and ties that Shepard forged originally, and further build upon them to bring them and humanity closer together as allies. 

So, uh, the Imperium in name only then? Because the Emperor didn't like aliens much at all. He ceratinly never allied with any sapient ones, not even the Eldar. He had a very clear image of what the universe was going to look like, and it consisted of humanity alone.

[DarkNova50]

Robosexual wrote...

The whole conversation we had basically shows this thread is about morality, and this shows that there is no inherently "evil" or bad thing. Some people just don't like husks because they're like, ugly or something, but trying to say that giving them choice and freedom is a bad thing isn't true.

No, I don't like Husks because they're the worst kind of meat puppet with Reaper tentacles shoved up their asses. You ever wonder why people in the games react badly when they see Dragon's Teeth? The Reapers aren't turning people into Husks because they love them so damn much. Banshees, Brutes, Marauders, Cannibals, Husks, Collectors...they're all horribly mutilated experiments, and there seems to be a common sentiment where people would rather be dead than transformed like that. See Samara's daughter detonating the bomb for one such example.

Some people, like you, think that comiting genocide on a race whose defining quality was their fight for survival, for life, is better than letting them have a future and a life. That's seen as being inherently better than granting them, and others, choice and life.

Funny, I don't remember saying that. I remember saying it was better to sacrifice one species so the others had true freedom, rather than preserving them all to take part in some half assed experiment that denies them self determination.

This whole conversation basically shows how good and bad is subjective. It doesn't matter if you disagree with someones choice, that in itself doesn't make the choice evil.

I always feel like these questions should be confronted. You should question why other people think granting choice and life to husks is better than plain executing them, you should want to understand these things, rather than just creating preconceived good and evil morality around it. This is what I find BSN lacks, people are too scared to explain their decisions because other, close minded, people hurl abuse at them based on their subjective view.

I'm not hurling abuse at anyone. We're discussing outcomes of a video game, not debating at the UN. I think some people take this stuff too seriously. Feel free to choose whatever ending you like when playing Mass Effect.

If and when this **** goes down for real, though? You and me are gonna have words. *letterbox glare*

Modifié par DarkNova50, 23 mai 2013 - 02:20 .

[Cheviot]

Atemeus wrote...

But if chaos is bad or not is irrelevant: the important thing to understand is that a green wave of purely genetic re-writing will not remove it, whatever the Catalyst seems to believe. Only a true mental degradation, mind control, the brain death of the universe, could prevent chaos from eventually rising up. Everything has to end sometime.

Who is arguing that Synthesis means the removal of Chaos?  Certainly not the Catalyst; even during the Cycles, it was concerned with the survival of organic life - the survival of Chaos - even if it used brutal methods to restore a balance with Order.  Synthesis is, in one way, a way to balance Chaos and Order without the involvement of the Reapers - all the choices lead to this balance, but the others may or may not be permanent.

Modifié par Cheviot, 23 mai 2013 - 02:22 .

[David7204]

Gosh, what a totally not at all biased thread title.

[Astartes Marine]

Stormcutter wrote...
So, uh, the Imperium in name only then? Because the Emperor didn't like aliens much at all. He ceratinly never allied with any sapient ones, not even the Eldar. He had a very clear image of what the universe was going to look like, and it consisted of humanity alone.

Imperium 2.0 basically, it is Shepard after all or some form of Shepard. 

Believe me I know the score with the Imperial history, and honestly I can't think of a way to make that concept work in Mass Effect, not humanity alone anyways.  The other races are too organized and too advanced and aren't as focused on the idea of taking out humanity like the 40K races are. 

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 23 mai 2013 - 02:22 .

[DarkNova50]

Astartes Marine wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...
I don't know...that sounds like an awfully pro-alien stance to me...
Whose side are you really on!?

I'll not pretend that the Imperium is perfect, that would be a bold faced lie.  After the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was forever entombed within the Golden Throne it started on a path of decline and decay, and continuously struggles to survive due to the endless infighting and bureaucracy.  The empire that my Shepard would forge would take some inspiration from the Imperium and then build upon it and improve it. 

The first step would be to take those races that were disregarded by the Council races; the Krogan, the Quarians and their Geth creations, to take the alliances and ties that Shepard forged originally, and further build upon them to bring them and humanity closer together as allies. 

I demand an inquisition! Terra Invictus! Humanity alone shall inherit the stars!

[Stormcutter]

Robosexual wrote...

Stormcutter wrote...

If, and I use that word purposefully, the husks are still sapient and controlled by the Reapers with their original personalities, then a strong argument could be made for their death being a mercy kill. I mean, would you want to be a husk? Unable to procreate or feel, an organic, likely human mind trapped in a mostly synthetic body that is fundamentally different from what you had on many levels?

It's not hard to imagine that the vast majority of husks would have killed themselves, especially the ones created by fusing multiple husks together.

That's why it's better to let them make that decision. Give them the choice in their future.

I did say IF for a reason.

Also, people are throwing the word 'choice' around a lot and I include myself in this.

Choice is not inherently good. Choosing between being stabbed or shot is not good. Choosing how to react to being tortured is not a choice most people want to encounter. Neither is choosing how to react to a gross violation of the self  very pleasant.

The choices that most people want to encounter are enjoyable ones, like whether to get vanilla or chocolate ice cream. Not 'Should I off myself for being turned into a half-machine monstrosity against my will?'

That's not the kind of choice that is genreally considered morally correct to expose people to. At any rate, I'm out of this thread. It's going downhill rapidly and I want to bail while there's still time.

To everyone else staying here, just remember: Dead Reapers are how we win this.

Modifié par Stormcutter, 23 mai 2013 - 02:27 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

Cheviot wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

But if chaos is bad or not is irrelevant: the important thing to understand is that a green wave of purely genetic re-writing will not remove it, whatever the Catalyst seems to believe. Only a true mental degradation, mind control, the brain death of the universe, could prevent chaos from eventually rising up. Everything has to end sometime.

Who is arguing that Synthesis means the removal of Chaos?  Certainly not the Catalyst; even during the Cycles, it was concerned with the survival of organic life - the survival of Chaos - even if it used brutal methods to restore a balance with Order.  Synthesis is, in one way, a way to balance Chaos and Order without the involvement of the Reapers - all the choices lead to this balance, but the others may or may not be permanent.

Here's the connection you are not making: The so-called cycle of Synthetics turning on their creators and killing them?

THAT is what cannot be stopped. Not ever, not by Control or Synthesis. THAT is "the chaos" that "will come back."

You just change the name of "Organics" killing "Synthetics" to "Everything" killing "Everything else." You bring no peace, and the concept of bringing peace between Organics and Synthetics is supposed to a pro to Synthesis by it's defenders, even though that is an incorrect assertion.

Any peace between two races, in Destroy OR Synthesis, is a result of the same thing: choice of the individuals, not a green wave of science.

Modifié par Atemeus, 23 mai 2013 - 02:26 .