553 réponses à ce sujet

[Phatose]

jstme wrote...

Evolution is most surely amoral.Simply it popped up in thread after someone compared evolving to ****** Sapiens to synthesis and it evolved from there.
But you are still wrong. Creature living in post-synthesis universe will indeed be part of evolution process that would not stop after green magic. Green wave however is the force that actually physically rewrites the genes. It has nothing to do with being part of evolution , organisms do not adapt - they are changed. Whatever those are after synthesis - they are green not because they were fittest,but because they were rewritten by that wave.
To clarify - creatures adapting to sudden ice age  - this is evolution. Breeding sheep with long fur - this is evolution. Releasing cold-resistance-gene wave without any nessesity for such - this is artificial change. Creatures affected will live according to natural selection laws, but the change was not part of those laws, it was artificial.
 

I'm not really sure I understand the thrust of your arguement.  If it's that the green wave is synthetic and therefore not part of nature, I simply disagree.  I see it as as much part of nature as everythign else.

If it's that living organisms are changed, instead of mutations between generations causing difference, you may have a point.  I'm not sure though - I'd need to check how the evolution treats existing examples, like plasmid exchanging DNA in bacteria to see whether that's something considered outside of the theory. 

[PsyrenY]

Since there is no hard and fast explanation to exactly what happens in Synthesis, we are left with our own speculation and headcanon. Some choose to let their thoughts take them to dark places, while others see the positive tone Bioware conveyed through the epilogue and direct our thoughts accordingly.

Those who choose to see evil will only think evil. It is perhaps futile to convince them otherwise, but pro-Synthesis users can only keep a positive outlook and hope they come around one day.

[Auld Wulf]

What I don't get is why they keep pushing the Synthesis-as-evil thing when it's their problem that they don't get it. Clearly it can be perceived in another way, because many other people do, and there's a mountain of information regarding that in the Synthesis compendium. As I've said before, to see anything evil in Synthesis reflects upon the person, not upon the story.

I think to see evil you have to want to see evil, in which case you tend to see evil with abortion clinics, or smartphones, or computers, or the Internet, or any other technology which has uplifted us above base animals. I mean, the very infrastructure we've created as a society has uplifted us beyond what an animal is capable of -- as I've pointed out, we can phone for medics to come and save a life, we are far above animals because of what we can create.

One day we'll be able to create Synthesis. As I've said, I just see Synthesis as a positive, optimistic, poetic look at what humanity can be if we just stop all the fighting and killing long enough to create a strong infrastructure of understanding. For some people, that's unimaginable, because they might revel in the conflict, and the evils, and the horrors, but I don't. I actually like where our advancements are taking us. I want to think we have the capacity to become something better.

Synthesis is showing us the 'something better,' but some people see Synthesis as a horror because people aren't running around and killing each other. Personally, I see that as kind of screwed up.

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What is a husk when it gains life? A completely new individual? The person it was before? A combination of both?

Who knows. Let's ask BioWare to make a sequel and explain that.

[The Night Mammoth]

Nothing to explain; I don't believe they gain life.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well since the mod is "fan fiction", and if I have to choose one of the "official" endings, I have a fifth choice called Ctrl-Alt-Del + End Task. There I fixed the ending. I just said, "The harvest is over. I win." No Blue, No Green. No Red. No Refuse.

Child: "We have tried... similar solutions in the past, but they have always failed."
Shepard: "Why have they failed?"
Child: "Because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. But you are ready."

Really? We're ready? I'm ready? It must have thought the other cycles were ready, too. And how did it try other solutions like this in the past if Shepard is the first organic ever standing here? This whole thing doesn't make any sense. Who was smoking what? Who proof read this? Oh that's right no one did originally, and now they had to deal with that and make sense out of it. And trying to make sense out of nonsense creates what? More nonsense.

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well since the mod is "fan fiction", and if I have to choose one of the "official" endings, I have a fifth choice called Ctrl-Alt-Del + End Task. There I fixed the ending. I just said, "The harvest is over. I win." No Blue, No Green. No Red. No Refuse.

Child: "We have tried... similar solutions in the past, but they have always failed."
Shepard: "Why have they failed?"
Child: "Because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. But you are ready."

Really? We're ready? I'm ready? It must have thought the other cycles were ready, too. And how did it try other solutions like this in the past if Shepard is the first organic ever standing here? This whole thing doesn't make any sense. Who was smoking what? Who proof read this? Oh that's right no one did originally, and now they had to deal with that and make sense out of it. And trying to make sense out of nonsense creates what? More nonsense.

Not only are you "ready"  But all humans are ready.  And all krogan, all salarians, all asari.

As well as all non spacefaring races.  And all nonsentient species  And all varren, and all the fish in your quarters, and Boo the Space Hamster,  Not to mention your front lawn...

[Seival]

xlegionx wrote...

Seival wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

Seival wrote...

-snip-

Finally. Even husks became self-aware in Synthesis. And husks were just empty mindless platforms, i.e. something much less "intelligent" than a typical VI that at least has some simulation of real mind.

This last part is what I just don't understand. Husks are dead organics whose bodies are control through nanites in the body responding to a reaper's signal (that is what I gathered from the Sanctuary Mission). How could such a thing become self-aware?

Does it matter how exactly? It's a sci-fi story.

What matters is that in case of Synthesis husks ended up as intelligent beings, which means that taken lives they represent were not wasted or suspended. Plus we've got a new race of ethereal creatures - the ex-VIs. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that an interesting part of possible new story's atmosphere?

New game based on Synthesized universe would provide atmosphere and experience no other universe can possibly provide. It would be something completely unique. Isn't that what the most players want? Something they never seen before. Something truly amazing and unique instead of one more standard story.



Dragon Age games have unique "fade-demons-spirits-tranquil" feature. Magic and mages in this game look non-standard compared to most other games. MEU has no such unique features. But it will have a lot of them, if next game will be a sequel based on Synthesized universe. Think about that, please.

It does matter if there's no explanation. yes it's a sci-fi story, but loophole explanations can still be made to make things plausible (element zero being the most notable for the MEU)

And considering how different the endings are, Bioware wouldn't risk canonizing an ending that a majority of the central fanbase seems to dislike. They will likely avoid making any type of direct sequel to ME3, at least for a while 

You want explanation of Synthesis with formulas and lab experiment recordings? We will have such explanation when humanity will become advanced enough. But I'm afraid you will not live long enough to see that.

Sci-fi is mostly about ideas and visions of the future. Sci-fi have little explanations, but asks some interesting questions and tries to answer them mostly intuitively. Asking authors for exact explanations of everything is absurd. What exact explanations are you waiting from an attempt to see the future and challenges it prepares for us?

There is a way to make Synthesis inevitable without canonizing any ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/13740862

[xlegionx]

 @Seival:

I'm not looking for a realistic explanation, I'm looking for an explanation. could be something like element zero, that just there for the sake allowing the universe as a whole to be taken seriously. But currently Synthesis has no explanation, just the results: organics get synthetic implants, synthetics get "understanding"

Modifié par xlegionx, 23 mai 2013 - 09:04 .

[KaiserShep]

Ironically, both EDI and the geth had understanding just fine in the end.

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

Ironically, both EDI and the geth had understanding just fine in the end.

Hush.  pay no attention to such petty details 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I admit, synthesis might happen in the future.

Whether or not it's a good thing or not is up to the people who induce it and under what context it occurs. I prefer it be under believable circumstances, with valid reasons, and personal consent of intelligent beings. It doesn't need to happen to nature. Plants and animals don't need synthesis. I'd also it rather not be necessitated as a solution to a problem in which more than one solution is available, a problem postulated by an entity that doesn't give his method or perspective and believes that it is acceptable to destroy life across the galaxy to prevent his said problem.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that synthesis is a bad thing. It's really not.

But as it is given in the context of ME3, it is a terrible, truly horrifying thing. That's how I personally view the ethics and morality behind it. And this is coming from an avid defender of TIM, Cerberus, and many of their methods.

Not to mention the explanation we do have defies science and logic. I'm being told things that are literally impossible, and am being presented with the choice to suit the needs of the entity that wipes out civilizations for its existence. I don't have said entity's perspective at the time of choosing. I have no idea what synthesis will do, since I'll be dead. This thing has a wholly un-organic perspective of an issue, while I have a wholly un-synthetic perspective. For all I know, it advocates turning every living thing in the galaxy into a husk for the rest of time. It suits the Reapers needs just fine. There can be no more conflict since everything is now reaperized and uniform in that respect. It can be considered as perfect evolution through the lens of the Catalyst and the Reapers who are adding themselves to the matrix of life, thus adding their 'perfection' to the mix. To the mind of the Catalyst (who's core logic is dictated by programming stipulated by Leviathan), it's perfect.

To me, it's not. It's breaks an inviolable ethic of life for all time, it goes towards solving a problem that I find (by the nature of the Catalyst and its creators) invalid, and it pretty much shows that I'm buying what the Catalyst is saying on something based on what he thinks of it.

The Catalyst is not objectively right. He's giving you his perspective, not anything else. He's gaining his perspective based on his observation and viewpoint that comes from his programming stipulated by imperfect organics.

[Seival]

xlegionx wrote...

 @Seival:

I'm not looking for a realistic explanation, I'm looking for an explanation. could be something like element zero, that just there for the sake allowing the universe as a whole to be taken seriously. But currently Synthesis has no explanation, just the results: organics get synthetic implants, synthetics get "understanding"

After Synthesis:
(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore. In addition, that doesn't mean organics became half-synthetics or just synthetics. Instead that means organic "hardware" became advanced enough to have some of powerful properties of synthetic hardware. Organics remained organics, but become evolved. We see no synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.
(2) Synthetics gained full understanding of organics' way of thinking and emotions, i.e. stop being completely alien to organics.
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware.

What exactly happened was explained in the epilogue in perfect detail. How exactly it happened doesn't really matter. The Catalyst invented a way to make such thing possible - this is all we really need to know.

Modifié par Seival, 23 mai 2013 - 09:33 .

[sharkboy421]

Seival wrote...
You want explanation of Synthesis with formulas and lab experiment recordings? We will have such explanation when humanity will become advanced enough. But I'm afraid you will not live long enough to see that.

Sci-fi is mostly about ideas and visions of the future. Sci-fi have little explanations, but asks some interesting questions and tries to answer them mostly intuitively. Asking authors for exact explanations of everything is absurd. What exact explanations are you waiting from an attempt to see the future and challenges it prepares for us?

There is a way to make Synthesis inevitable without canonizing any ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/13740862

This is one of the issues with Synthesis.  No it does not have to have a "real" explanation.  It just needs an explanation that makes sense within the context of Mass Effect. 

For instance, Element Zero and the mass effect itself are not real.  But we have an explanation that makes sense for the universe.  Synthesis is just a vague idea.  Something that is this important to the story needs to have an explanation that makes sense in-universe.  Even if it was something as shallow as the thermal clips explanation, there is still an in-universe explanation that fits within the context.

You may disagree with the explanation or feel that it is inappropriate, but as long as it uses means that have been pre-established in-universe, then nearly any explanation would go a long way to making synthesis look like ME as opposed to how some people see it now.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

 @Seival:

I'm not looking for a realistic explanation, I'm looking for an explanation. could be something like element zero, that just there for the sake allowing the universe as a whole to be taken seriously. But currently Synthesis has no explanation, just the results: organics get synthetic implants, synthetics get "understanding"

After Synthesis:
(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore. In addition, that doesn't mean organics became half-synthetics or just synthetics. Instead that means organic "hardware" became advanced enough to have some of powerful properties of synthetic hardware. Organics remained organics, but become evolved. We see no synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.
(2) Synthetics gained full understanding of organics' way of thinking and emotions, i.e. stop being completely alien to organics.
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware.

What exactly happened was explained in the epilogue in perfect detail. How exactly it happened doesn't really matter. The Catalyst invented a way to make such thing possible - this is all we really need to know.

1. That's all headcanon. As good (or bad) as any other really. It's not explained, just shown that everyone has eerie green circuits.

2. I don't reall even understand how an organic perspective can be put onto a synthetic. I don't understand how a synthetic can't understand an organic perspective without really making a change to the logic (in which case Synthesis would be unnecessary). We're never given any accurate measure of sythetic biology compared to organic biology. If it was to do with a synthetic, don't you think you could just change a synthetic's core logic/programming to understand? What BW described is for the 'understanding' isn't really possible. Synthesis somehow gives them understanding? That's just bad writing meant to make Synthesis look better.

3. Reaper ships have always been self-aware. Once more, this is headcanon.

[Seival]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Seival wrote...
You want explanation of Synthesis with formulas and lab experiment recordings? We will have such explanation when humanity will become advanced enough. But I'm afraid you will not live long enough to see that.

Sci-fi is mostly about ideas and visions of the future. Sci-fi have little explanations, but asks some interesting questions and tries to answer them mostly intuitively. Asking authors for exact explanations of everything is absurd. What exact explanations are you waiting from an attempt to see the future and challenges it prepares for us?

There is a way to make Synthesis inevitable without canonizing any ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/13740862

This is one of the issues with Synthesis.  No it does not have to have a "real" explanation.  It just needs an explanation that makes sense within the context of Mass Effect. 

For instance, Element Zero and the mass effect itself are not real.  But we have an explanation that makes sense for the universe.  Synthesis is just a vague idea.  Something that is this important to the story needs to have an explanation that makes sense in-universe.  Even if it was something as shallow as the thermal clips explanation, there is still an in-universe explanation that fits within the context.

You may disagree with the explanation or feel that it is inappropriate, but as long as it uses means that have been pre-established in-universe, then nearly any explanation would go a long way to making synthesis look like ME as opposed to how some people see it now.

Actually, Element Zero and Mass Effect have no real explanations at all. There are only explanations of what those things do and how people use them. Synthesis is represented in the story absolutely the same way. There is nothing to complain about here.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Seival wrote...
You want explanation of Synthesis with formulas and lab experiment recordings? We will have such explanation when humanity will become advanced enough. But I'm afraid you will not live long enough to see that.

Sci-fi is mostly about ideas and visions of the future. Sci-fi have little explanations, but asks some interesting questions and tries to answer them mostly intuitively. Asking authors for exact explanations of everything is absurd. What exact explanations are you waiting from an attempt to see the future and challenges it prepares for us?

There is a way to make Synthesis inevitable without canonizing any ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/13740862

This is one of the issues with Synthesis.  No it does not have to have a "real" explanation.  It just needs an explanation that makes sense within the context of Mass Effect. 

For instance, Element Zero and the mass effect itself are not real.  But we have an explanation that makes sense for the universe.  Synthesis is just a vague idea.  Something that is this important to the story needs to have an explanation that makes sense in-universe.  Even if it was something as shallow as the thermal clips explanation, there is still an in-universe explanation that fits within the context.

You may disagree with the explanation or feel that it is inappropriate, but as long as it uses means that have been pre-established in-universe, then nearly any explanation would go a long way to making synthesis look like ME as opposed to how some people see it now.

Actually, Element Zero and Mass Effect have no real explanations at all. There are only explanations of what those things do and how people use them. Synthesis is represented in the story absolutely the same way. There is nothing to complain about here.

You're kidding right?

Element Zero and Mass Effect fields are explained within the codex of the games in depth according to the science of the universe. They are referred to numerous times throughout the trilogy with specific capability's and feats (along with explanations that fit the in-game lore).

Element Zero (Atomic Number 0, Chemical Symbol Ez), also known as 'eezo', is a rare material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can be manipulated into a mass effect field, raising or lowering the mass of all objects within that field. A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it. This 'mass effect' is used in countless ways, from generating artificial gravity to manufacturing high-strength construction materials. It is most prominently used to enable faster-than-light space travel without causingtime dilation. When humans discovered the Prothean ruins on Mars, they also discovered refined element zero that the Protheans had left behind. It enabled research into FTL ship drives before the Charon Relay was discovered.Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet, is affected by the energy of a star going supernova. The material is common in the asteroid debris that orbits neutron stars and pulsars. These are dangerous places to mine, requiring extensive use of robotics, telepresence, and shielding to survive the intense radiation from the dead star. Only a few major corporations can afford the set-up costs required to work these primary sources. Some planets have small eezo deposits or coalesced around a larger deposit during their formation. While these secondary sources are safer to mine, the yield from the ore is not as large. There are rumours that the Nemean Abyss has particularly rich eezo deposits.Dust-form element zero is often released after engine accidents. It is used by many species to influence or strengthen the presence of biotics. If a child is exposed to dust-form element zero in utero, due to its mutageniceffects, there is a small chance they can develop eezo nodules throughout their nervous system that react to electrical stimuli from the brain. This allows them to use biotic abilities, but many exposures have no effect, or result in terminal cancer. There is some question about just how 'accidental' some of those initial exposures were, after the link between eezo and biotics was established.Element zero forms the basis of many advanced medicines throughout Citadel space. The biotic drug 'red sand' allegedly has element zero as its base — according to urban legend, it was created by criminal triads on Mars from the eezo samples recovered there. The SSV Normandy's massive Tantalus drive core cost 120 billion creditsbecause of the amount of element zero needed to power the stealth system.

Taken from the ME wiki and codex

Meanwhile, everything about synthesis is told to Shepard in the span of about 40 seconds, in which case it breaks logic and defined biology several times and is presented by a being who is being very enigmatic and not explaining what he wants at all. Add to that EDI's creepy narrative where she simply explains her new life, without actually saying what Synthesis actually is or how it works.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 mai 2013 - 09:54 .

[KaiserShep]

Seival wrote...
Actually, Element Zero and Mass Effect have no real explanations at all. There are only explanations of what those things do and how people use them. Synthesis is represented in the story absolutely the same way. There is nothing to complain about here.

Element zero has plenty of info on it, enough to make it a plausible part of the MEU. 

Edit: Seems Massive did a pretty good job of sorting this out. Well played. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 mai 2013 - 09:52 .

[essarr71]

Mass.. if you look up the codex on "Organic Energy" you'll see what Seival is.. hold on.. Can't seem to find that entry. Let me try "Synthetic Biology".. hmm. Nevermind.

[Asharad Hett]

sharkboy421 wrote...

This is one of the issues with Synthesis.  ...  It just needs an explanation that makes sense within the context of Mass Effect. 
{snip}
  Synthesis is just a vague idea. 

Control and Destroy are also just vague ideas.  Can you explain those any better than Synthesis? 

[Asharad Hett]

PS. None of the endings make sense, except for refusal (which just sucks).

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 23 mai 2013 - 09:55 .

[essarr71]

Asharad Hett wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

This is one of the issues with Synthesis.  ...  It just needs an explanation that makes sense within the context of Mass Effect. 
{snip}
  Synthesis is just a vague idea. 

Control and Destroy are also just vague ideas.  Can you explain those any better than Synthesis? 

The idea of control being possible has a foundation in the game from Mars on.  Destroy is also established thru dialogue and codex entries regarding the crucible.

Synthesis isn't posed as a possibility or necessity until the final conversation.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Asharad Hett wrote...

PS. None of the endings make sense, except for refusal (which just sucks).

Destroy has elements to it that don't make a lot of sense, but the concept itself isn't really too far fetched. It's the best defined ending by the Catalyst. He explains what will happen pretty easily. A burst of energy is fired, destroys the Reapers and synthetics, and causes damage to the Relays. That's really all there is too it.

[xlegionx]

@MassivelyEffective0730:

Seival doesn't accept the codex as reliable evidence for an argument. Tread carefully

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

 @Seival:

I'm not looking for a realistic explanation, I'm looking for an explanation. could be something like element zero, that just there for the sake allowing the universe as a whole to be taken seriously. But currently Synthesis has no explanation, just the results: organics get synthetic implants, synthetics get "understanding"

After Synthesis:
(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore. In addition, that doesn't mean organics became half-synthetics or just synthetics. Instead that means organic "hardware" became advanced enough to have some of powerful properties of synthetic hardware. Organics remained organics, but become evolved. We see no synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.
(2) Synthetics gained full understanding of organics' way of thinking and emotions, i.e. stop being completely alien to organics.
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware.

What exactly happened was explained in the epilogue in perfect detail. How exactly it happened doesn't really matter. The Catalyst invented a way to make such thing possible - this is all we really need to know.

1. That's all headcanon. As good (or bad) as any other really. It's not explained, just shown that everyone has eerie green circuits.

2. I don't reall even understand how an organic perspective can be put onto a synthetic. I don't understand how a synthetic can't understand an organic perspective without really making a change to the logic (in which case Synthesis would be unnecessary). We're never given any accurate measure of sythetic biology compared to organic biology. If it was to do with a synthetic, don't you think you could just change a synthetic's core logic/programming to understand? What BW described is for the 'understanding' isn't really possible. Synthesis somehow gives them understanding? That's just bad writing meant to make Synthesis look better.

3. Reaper ships have always been self-aware. Once more, this is headcanon.

(1) No, it is not. Watch the epilogue more carefully, and you will understand why.

(2) Again, watch the epilogue more carefully please. You don't need to know the exact mechanics, you just need to know that synthetics stopped being alien to organics:

(3) Not Reaper ships, but Reapers collective mind called the Catalyst. Separate ships were just mindless tools, but after the Synthesis they all gained their own minds. Most likely even collective minds of all harvested people for each separate ship.