336 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chantry was supposed to be in charge of the Mages AND the Templars and now there is a war.  Who do you think would get blamed?! 

The mages. Why NOT the mages?

Not to mention thre is more pressing matters to attend to - like stopping the mages.

Doesn't work.  If the Chantry were willing to throw mages under the bus, the Templars would have never left.  You can't unring a bell.  The letter that Lambert writes to the Divine is pure treason from the Chantry PoV.  The Divine can not overlook it.  The Chantry has no choice but to declare Lambert and those that follow him to be in rebellion.  By contrast the mages DID follow at least the letter of the law (or at least tried).  This is made clear at th end of DA2.  The Circles broke away, but the Templars rebelled.

Yes it works.
Templars broke away too.
Mages are the cause of all problems.

Your bias is showing.  Magic was dealt with long before there was a Chantry or the Circles, and even today societies exist that handle magic relatively well.  You simply refuse to aknowledge this.

Broken, corrupt, primitive societies. Methods that cannot and will not work on a different scale and in a different culture.

Don't talk about bias.

This difference is I am not rejecting arguements simply because I don't agree with them.  You seem to make a habit of this.

Yes you do. You just don't think you are doing it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
You mean the bloodthirsty heretics who are defying the Chantry and the Divine, and burning villiages to the ground with their incessant witch hunts?  The old Inquisition had a very deservedly dark reputation before the modern chantry and it had that reputation for a reason.

I think the Templars will be blamed plenty.

The templars that are described in codexes as being view by poeple with awe and considered protectors?
I don't know where you are getting burnign villages down - that sounds more like a mage m.o.

Rulers have a strong incentive to 'make nice' with the circles and now the Chantry does too, and the Chantry can do a lot to mitigate the negative traditional press against mages....and so can the local nobility.

But they won't.
What kind of authority will the Chatnry have if it goes nice agasint hte mages now? Not only have the mages told the Chantry to f*** itself, they also started a war that will ultimatively claim thousands. They murdered the reverend mother of Kirkwall.

There wont' be any making nice with mages.

Actually neither is really part of society.  The Templars tend to be more visible true, but they had always been isolated.  I also note that an army of drug-addicted fanatics that goes rampaging through lands on literal witch hunts is not going to get much secular noble support.

Far more support than an army of bloodmages and witches

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dragon Age has always pointed to the "evil" nature of magic - that it's a corrupting tool and that most mages succumb to that corruption and abuse others to feed their own selfish natures.

To turn Thedas into a magic utopia would do the series a disservice.

This is why the overwhelming majority in BOTH DAO and DA2 (even after the rash of evil blood mages) of players side with the mages?  I'd say that Dragon Age presents magic as a misunderstood force of nature and those with magic to be an oppressed minority, and I think the numbers that side with the mages reflect this.

-Polaris

But he is right. It would be a huge disservice, as it would rob the setting of all gravitas.

Wether some people would like a super-happy ending or not is utterly irrelevant as much as it pertains hte quality ofthe narrative adn explored themes.
Following the masses in not the best couse of action, so trying that argument Ad Populum is pointless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
I would argue that most people side with mages because most people (players I mean) don't accept the Chantry/Templar arguments....or at least not enough to justify treating mages as non-people.

-Polaris

I would argue that most people are too blinded by the modern mindset of political correctnes and are projectcing the "poor, misunderstood minority" image onto the mages - and image that does not and cannot fit.
In short, people combine wishfull thinking and "root for the underdog" and the "feelgood-morality points for siding with the opressed" while being oblivious of the greater problem and implications.

Sad, but true.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The entire point is that magic is a corrupting influence, but that the mages are still people, and as thus worthy of redemption and salvation. People side with the mages, not because of magic, but because they are people, and can be saved.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entire point is that magic is a corrupting influence, but that the mages are still people, and as thus worthy of redemption and salvation. People side with the mages, not because of magic, but because they are people, and can be saved.

No i support the mages because i want the templars elimated as quickly as possible because they are an liability for the safety of thedas.

[Ausstig]

I wonder if the Idiot B**** Divine is still in power.

Given that she:

1. Lost most the Templars and Seekers

2. Lost them due to her interference in their attempts DO THEIR JOB and control magic.

3. There division in electing her in the first place so she may not have had as strong a suppourt as other Divine's in the past.

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The
entire point is that magic is a corrupting influence, but that the
mages are still people, and as thus worthy of redemption and salvation.
People side with the mages, not because of magic, but because they are
people, and can be saved.

No i support the mages because i
want the templars elimated as quickly as possible because they are an
liability for the safety of thedas.

Please explain to me how a group trined to defuse magic and stop evil mages is a threat to Thedas?

Modifié par Ausstig, 29 mai 2013 - 12:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

No i support the mages because i want the templars elimated as quickly as possible because they are an liability for the safety of thedas.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!1 :lol::lol::lol:

[azarhal]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entire point is that magic is a corrupting influence, but that the mages are still people, and as thus worthy of redemption and salvation. People side with the mages, not because of magic, but because they are people, and can be saved.

Quite the opposite actually. The games/lore/books are clear that human's emotions are the "corrupting influence". DA2 was all about realizing that there was no Big Bad, just the wrong people all getting together to make a nice little power keg. Flemeth even talks about the "darkness in man's heart" being more dangerous than darkspawns in DA:O.

Even the Chantry says it:
Jealousy caused Maferath's betrayal.
Greed made the Magisters go into the Golden's City and cause the Blight (regardless of how accurate this is).

Everything shown in the setting is about how people's emotions cause terrible things happen regardless if they are mages (Uldred, Quentin, Anders) or not (Loghain, Bhelen, Meredith and Lady Harriman). Dawn of the Seeker was all about Cassandra's hatred and her overcoming it. Asunder shows that one man fear, hatred and paranoia (Lambert) was enough to cause the Templars to leave the Chantry and start a war.

Although, the best example is that the Harrowing is just a test of will in the end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Okay, let me reiterate then: Magic is the catalyst of corruption but not the cause.

[Lulupab]

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

And I'd ignore Lotion Soronnar if I were you as you can't find anyone more biased on forums.

Ausstig wrote...

Please explain to me how a group trined to defuse magic and stop evil mages is a threat to Thedas?

Because many Templars have become corrupt as well. They "stop" all mages not just the evil ones.

Modifié par Rassler, 29 mai 2013 - 01:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

And I'd ignore Lotion Soronnar if I were you as you can't find anyone more biased on forums.

Ausstig wrote...

Please explain to me how a group trined to defuse magic and stop evil mages is a threat to Thedas?

Because many Templars have become corrupt as well. They "stop" all mages not just the evil ones.

I was speaking specifically about mages...

And as long as Lotion comes up wtih valid opinions and arguments, then I wont ignore him. It is impossible to stay objective in any matter once you submerge yourself in it, so just because someone is biased does not mean you should ignore them. I don't ignore half the mage supporters either, despite their blatant bias. As long as the point people make is valid, their bias means nothing.

And you are quick to paint all those hundred if not thousands of Templars we havn't met, with the same brush you used to paint that two dozen we have met, of which less than half were corrupt.
You might want to try and use this same argument about mages, but it simply does not apply there. No matter his intentions ALL mages are dangerous. So that is why mages, no matter what, is a danger to the world of Thedas.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 mai 2013 - 02:39 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And since you have yet to come up with any sort of tangible proof that the Templars are not self-sustained in anything other than their Lyrium supply, I'm going to stick with what we know, that the people fears and hate magic, and they trust and love the Templars. Hell, the people would probably sooner supply the Templars, than shelter even a single mage for a night.

We know the sort of world that Thedas is supposed to be.  Even as late at the 30 years war (a time that has considerably better argiculture and logistical support than the middle ages), armies composed of heavy infantry (like the Templars) could not sustain themselves in the field on their own reserves more than a few weeks absolute tops.  That means that to supply such armies longer, they had to "forage" off the land or have incredibly rich and well connected patrons so they didn't have to.  This was true of ALL armies btw (and one reason the thirty years war was so brutal on the civilian population).

There is no evidence that the Templars are different.  On top of all this, we KNOW that the Templars need lyrium in a bad way and are now cut off from Chantry resupply.  This gets ugly quick.

And you might also want to take into consideration the World of Thedas description of the old Inquisition, which sheds more light on the old Order, thana  single line from an obscure codex entry....

The World of Thedas Entry is almost a pure Chantry Whitewash, while the older codex entry is the more honest (if brutal) memories of the old older of Inquisition. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there even is a Lyrium shortage... The Templars ahve probably taken over all the Chantry storages of Lyrium, and they've retaken all the Circles, which probably also had storages of Lyrium, and they can trade with the Dwarves for more. So, it isn't even certain that there is a Lyrium shortage...

Actually we know that the Templars lose control of the circles and most of the Lyrium was probably stored there.  If the circles were smart they'd have destroyed any Lyrium they couldn't carry.  That said, I agree that the Templars would start out with some Lyrium with storage.  That's going to run out quickly and things get really ugly when they do.

As for the Dwarves, the Dwarves already have a deal with the Chantry, and you can imagine that the Chantry is going to press the Dwarves not to deal with "traitors" and "heretics".  Given that the Chantry has income and the Templars don't, I don't expect the "New Templars" to get very far in Orzammar....and especially not if there is a circle based there.  King Harrowmount wouldn't deal with aggressive outsiders on general principles,and Bhelen would certainly not want to alienate the human Chantry for political reasons.  Now the Templars could get lyrium via Carta Smuggling, but while Smuggling is good enough to keep a person or small group supplied, it is hopelessly inadequate for the entire Templar order.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chantry was supposed to be in charge of the Mages AND the Templars and now there is a war.  Who do you think would get blamed?! 

The mages. Why NOT the mages?

Not to mention thre is more pressing matters to attend to - like stopping the mages.

Most peasents have most likely not even met a mage.  However, groups of marauding bandits is a grim reality that rural peasents deal with every day.  When the Templars start acting like Marauding Bandits on a literal Witchhunt (and they will), the peasents are going to hate the immediate threat over the more remote one.

As for in general, I think the rulers and nobility are going to blame the Chantry for the war because it was the chantry's job to make sure things never got this far to start with.  It's the same reason many of us squarely blame Elthina for what happened in Kirkwall (and as I recall you blame her for that as well).

Doesn't work.  If the Chantry were willing to throw mages under the bus, the Templars would have never left.  You can't unring a bell.  The letter that Lambert writes to the Divine is pure treason from the Chantry PoV.  The Divine can not overlook it.  The Chantry has no choice but to declare Lambert and those that follow him to be in rebellion.  By contrast the mages DID follow at least the letter of the law (or at least tried).  This is made clear at th end of DA2.  The Circles broke away, but the Templars rebelled.

Yes it works.
Templars broke away too.
Mages are the cause of all problems.

Once the Templars have committed an open act of rebellion, the Chantry HAS to try to put it down and blame the Templars or else lose all authority and respect.  That's a big reason why it was so stupid for Lambert to break with the Chantry to start with no matter what (in his mind was) the provocation.

Your bias is showing.  Magic was dealt with long before there was a Chantry or the Circles, and even today societies exist that handle magic relatively well.  You simply refuse to aknowledge this.

Broken, corrupt, primitive societies. Methods that cannot and will not work on a different scale and in a different culture.

Don't talk about bias.

Hardly.  As for bias, I think yours is well known and I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You mean the bloodthirsty heretics who are defying the Chantry and the Divine, and burning villiages to the ground with their incessant witch hunts?  The old Inquisition had a very deservedly dark reputation before the modern chantry and it had that reputation for a reason.

I think the Templars will be blamed plenty.

The templars that are described in codexes as being view by poeple with awe and considered protectors?
I don't know where you are getting burnign villages down - that sounds more like a mage m.o.

Sure but that's WHEN the Templars are fully supported and act as the military arm of a Chantry that's fairly popular.  We know that Templars can lose their popularity quickly when they start getting aggressive with the civilian population (KCapt Cullen says this in DA2).

Post Asunder, the Templars have openly rebelled against the mages.  Do you think that the Chantry won't reliate from the Pews?  Of course the Chantry will starting with shouting to the four corners of Thedas that the Templars are now traitors and heretics.  Couple that with Templars starting to "forage" (read pillage, burn, loot, and worse) the peasanty in order to keep supplied along with brutal witchhunts of the style of the old inquisition (justified or not), and the Templars will quickly become hated. 

Rulers have a strong incentive to 'make nice' with the circles and now the Chantry does too, and the Chantry can do a lot to mitigate the negative traditional press against mages....and so can the local nobility.

But they won't.
What kind of authority will the Chatnry have if it goes nice agasint hte mages now? Not only have the mages told the Chantry to f*** itself, they also started a war that will ultimatively claim thousands. They murdered the reverend mother of Kirkwall.

There wont' be any making nice with mages.

There is no reason not to at least put out peace feelers and make nice to the circles (not ALL mages but the circles), and a lot of good reasons revolving around power politics to do so.  Naturally the circles won't have it all easy themselves, and they will have their own radicals to deal with, but by rebelling against the Chantry, the Templars have thrown away any chance at the moral high ground.

Actually neither is really part of society.  The Templars tend to be more visible true, but they had always been isolated.  I also note that an army of drug-addicted fanatics that goes rampaging through lands on literal witch hunts is not going to get much secular noble support.

Far more support than an army of bloodmages and witches

I think you'd be suprised actually (and a small minority would be actually bloodmages and witches, DA2's 'insane bloodmage spree' notwithstanding).  As Winston Churchill once put it, "If I could get help against Hitler, I would put in a good word in Parliament for Satan himself" (refering to the wartime alliance with Soviet Russia which Churchill had always regarded as an enemy).

-Polaris

[garrusfan1]

IanPolaris wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

they are allowed to do whatever they want with impunitty because it is authorized by the chantry

Not any more.  I am not sure that Lambert and his 'boys have figured that out yet.  Yet one more reason why leaving the Chantry regardless of provocation was a stupid thing for the Templars to do.

-Polaris

yes but that sticks with them so they would remember that and already have trouble with them.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Most peasents have most likely not even met a mage.  However, groups of marauding bandits is a grim reality that rural peasents deal with every day.  When the Templars start acting like Marauding Bandits on a literal Witchhunt (and they will), the peasents are going to hate the immediate threat over the more remote one.

So in this little situation of yours, the peasantry would notice the Templar but not the mages they're fighting against? That's a "remote threat"?

As for in general, I think the rulers and nobility are going to blame the Chantry for the war because it was the chantry's jobto make sure things never got this far to start with.  It's the same reason many of us squarely blame Elthina for what happened in Kirkwall (and as I recall you blame her for that as well).

Both sides turned against the Divine, we're probably going to see the nobility blaming the Divine over the Chantry as a whole. I'd like to a see a sub-plot where we replace the Divine.

Once the Templars have committed an open act of rebellion, the Chantry HAS to try to put it down and blame the Templars or else lose all authority and respect.  That's a big reason why it was so stupid for Lambert to break with the Chantry to start with no matter what (in his mind was) the provocation.

Except they didn't commit an open act of rebellion, they wrote a letter breaking their pact to the Divine after she betrayed the Templar Order in favor of the mages. They didn't go around trashing Chantries across the land or laughing at the severed head of priestesses.

The fact remains that Templar and Chantry still share the same beliefs and the only reason they're seperated is because of the Divine neglecting her duties which goes against the pact they've signed.

Rassler wrote...

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

This argument is always ridiculous to me. You're presenting that normal people are worse than mages, what's stopping mages from being just as bad except having powers under their commands and being able to slaughter entire cities? 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 mai 2013 - 03:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Most peasents have most likely not even met a mage.  However, groups of marauding bandits is a grim reality that rural peasents deal with every day.  When the Templars start acting like Marauding Bandits on a literal Witchhunt (and they will), the peasents are going to hate the immediate threat over the more remote one.

So in this little situation of yours, the peasantry would notice the Templar but not the mages they're fighting against? That's a "remote threat"?

Yep. It's remote.  Wanna know why?  There are a LOT more Templars than Mages, and each Templar requires a LOT more support (not just lyrium either).  That's the nature of heavy infantry armies.  Such armies leave a large and very brutal logistical footprint on the ground that given the technology/time of Thedas requires foraging unless you have a very wealthy patron that supplies you, and the Templars no longer do.  Mages by contrast are fewer, and don't need very much (if any) specialized gear, and they have magic to help mitigate the footprint they do leave.

I am not saying that the peasants won't be frightened of magic, but the circles will not need to pillage, burn, and worse entire villages just to keep supplied.  The Templars will do just that....they will have to just to maintain their logistics.

As for in general, I think the rulers and nobility are going to blame the Chantry for the war because it was the chantry's jobto make sure things never got this far to start with.  It's the same reason many of us squarely blame Elthina for what happened in Kirkwall (and as I recall you blame her for that as well).

Both sides turned against the Divine, we're probably going to see the nobility blaming the Divine over the Chantry as a whole. I'd like to a see a sub-plot where we replace the Divine.

Right, but the Chantry still enjoys a large degree of moral favor with the populace as a whole, and the Divine and per people aren't stupid.  The Divine has to know how this entire situation makes the Chantry look, so it's time to negotiate and be concilliatory not just to the circles but to the secular rulers that the Chantry may have run roughshod over in the past.  I am not saying this will work,but this is the Divine's best option.

Once the Templars have committed an open act of rebellion, the Chantry HAS to try to put it down and blame the Templars or else lose all authority and respect.  That's a big reason why it was so stupid for Lambert to break with the Chantry to start with no matter what (in his mind was) the provocation.

Except they didn't commit an open act of rebellion, they wrote a letter breaking their pact to the Divine after she betrayed the Templar Order in favor of the mages. They didn't go around trashing Chantries across the land or laughing at the severed head of priestesses.

The fact remains that Templar and Chantry still share the same beliefs and the only reason they're seperated is because of the Divine neglecting her duties which goes against the pact they've signed.

This makes it an open act of rebellion.  I promise you that both the Divine and Empress Celene  will see and act on it as such, and frankly Heresy and Rebellion against the Chantry ultimately is what the Divine says it is.  I fully expect the Divine to label the breakaway templars as Heretics and Rebels.  In fact the Chantry almost has to......and the person in the street...heck even the typical noble isn't going to know, or care, about the details.

Rassler wrote...

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

This argument is always ridiculous to me. You're presenting that normal people are worse than mages, what's stopping mages from being just as bad except having powers under their commands and being able to slaughter entire cities? 

Normal people today can take out entire city blocks with a pickup truck, supplies you can legally buy at a hardware store, and a little bit of high-school chemistry.

However, we don't treat every normal person with a high school education as a dangerous non-person.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 mai 2013 - 04:00 .

[Ianamus]

Rassler wrote...

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

The start of her crusade was her mage  sister turning into an abomination and destroying her village. Her madness was only furthered when she came into possestion of the Lyrium  idol, and the final straw was Anders blowing up the chantry, with magic. 

Every step on Meredith's path to tyranny was paved with magic. 

IanPolaris wrote...
Normal people today can take out entire city blocks with a pickup truck, supplies you can legally buy at a hardware store, and a little bit of high-school chemistry.

However, we don't treat every normal person with a high school education as a dangerous non-person.

-Polaris

Except that in order to aquire a pickup truck or bomb-creating materials you have to go through a lot of effort and money. Not to mention that goods considered dangerous are difficult to obtain and highly regulated. Even then you are likely to injure yourself in the process if you are not careful. 

It's not really comparable to people who can literally set somebody on fire with the click of their fingers or turn into an immensely powerful demon at any moment against their will. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 mai 2013 - 04:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...
And I'd ignore Lotion Soronnar if I were you as you can't find anyone more biased on forums.

Have you tried looking in the mirrior?

How does that old proverb about trying to remove the splinter from your brothers eye goes? Oh yes..be sure to remove the log from yours before attempting it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Most peasents have most likely not even met a mage.  However, groups of marauding bandits is a grim reality that rural peasents deal with every day.  When the Templars start acting like Marauding Bandits on a literal Witchhunt (and they will), the peasents are going to hate the immediate threat over the more remote one.

Sez you.
It's far more likely for mages to go about acting like bandits and general d***.

Once the Templars have committed an open act of rebellion, the Chantry HAS to try to put it down and blame the Templars or else lose all authority and respect.  That's a big reason why it was so stupid for Lambert to break with the Chantry to start with no matter what (in his mind was) the provocation.

There is no "HAS TO".

Hardly.  As for bias, I think yours is well known and I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

Indeed.
You go ahead and live in the dellusion that you are not biased an no one thinks you are.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Magic is ONE of the catalysts of corruption. As mighty Felmeth said men's hearts holds shadows darker than anything. The destruction and horror Meredith caused makes blood magic become pale in comparison.

This argument is always ridiculous to me. You're presenting that normal people are worse than mages, what's stopping mages from being just as bad except having powers under their commands and being able to slaughter entire cities? 

Normal people today can take out entire city blocks with a pickup truck, supplies you can legally buy at a hardware store, and a little bit of high-school chemistry.

However, we don't treat every normal person with a high school education as a dangerous non-person.

-Polaris

What does irl 20 & 21st century bomb making, along with a modern police force's capabilities at monitering and tracking said people have to do with Thedas?

Unlike a normal person a mage is prone to possession or can summon carnivorous entities who commit indiscriminate slaughter like Meredith's little sister killing 70 villagers before being stopped, Connor with Redcliffe, and Uldred. Then there's the fact that mages have tangible, and not an abstract notion of power to use or abuse on a whim.

Plus you forget that the non magical people of Thedas destructive capacity is limited to swords, crossbows, catapults, and primitive explosives, in comparison to mages who can summon firestorms, tear the veil by themselves, make magical bombs capable of obliterating whole buildings, or directly control the minds and body of people. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 mai 2013 - 04:35 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there even is a Lyrium shortage... The Templars ahve probably taken over all the Chantry storages of Lyrium, and they've retaken all the Circles, which probably also had storages of Lyrium, and they can trade with the Dwarves for more. So, it isn't even certain that there is a Lyrium shortage...

Actually we know that the Templars lose control of the circles and most of the Lyrium was probably stored there.  If the circles were smart they'd have destroyed any Lyrium they couldn't carry.  That said, I agree that the Templars would start out with some Lyrium with storage.  That's going to run out quickly and things get really ugly when they do.

There were no Circle in Rivain, so that Circle's entire Lyrium store is in the possession of the Templars. Several Chantries must also have had hands-on acces to Lyrium, to supply the Templars stationed there. These stores will also be in the possession of the Templars.
And what makes you think that the stores the Templars ahve will run out quickly? What are you basing taht off? Nothing? Oh right, same as usual....
And what makes you think that large quantities of Lyrium can even be destroyed? It is magic made manifest, so I kinda doubt it is as easy as just setting it on fire...

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Dwarves, the Dwarves already have a deal with the Chantry, and you can imagine that the Chantry is going to press the Dwarves not to deal with "traitors" and "heretics".  Given that the Chantry has income and the Templars don't, I don't expect the "New Templars" to get very far in Orzammar....and especially not if there is a circle based there.  King Harrowmount wouldn't deal with aggressive outsiders on general principles,and Bhelen would certainly not want to alienate the human Chantry for political reasons.  Now the Templars could get lyrium via Carta Smuggling, but while Smuggling is good enough to keep a person or small group supplied, it is hopelessly inadequate for the entire Templar order.

-Polaris

And the Chantry is going to pressure the Dwarves to let them keep their monopoly exactly how? The Chantry lost all its negotiating power, when they lost the Templars. The Chantry can no longer enforce its demands, and as such it is a wide open market, and there is nothing that will prevent the Dwarves from selling their wares to the Templars. The Chantry is no longer a power that needs to be reckoned with, so the Dwarves no longer have to concern themselves with appeasing the Chantry.
And we don't know if there ever were a Circle in Orzammar, not even for those who made the choices that led to the rumors of one being established there. And I could also easily see the Dwarves evicting any mages seeking refuge in Orzammar, so as to remain neutral in the conflict.

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And since you have yet to come up with any sort of tangible proof that the Templars are not self-sustained in anything other than their Lyrium supply, I'm going to stick with what we know, that the people fears and hate magic, and they trust and love the Templars. Hell, the people would probably sooner supply the Templars, than shelter even a single mage for a night.

We know the sort of world that Thedas is supposed to be.  Even as late at the 30 years war (a time that has considerably better argiculture and logistical support than the middle ages), armies composed of heavy infantry (like the Templars) could not sustain themselves in the field on their own reserves more than a few weeks absolute tops.  That means that to supply such armies longer, they had to "forage" off the land or have incredibly rich and well connected patrons so they didn't have to.  This was true of ALL armies btw (and one reason the thirty years war was so brutal on the civilian population).

There is no evidence that the Templars are different.  On top of all this, we KNOW that the Templars need lyrium in a bad way and are now cut off from Chantry resupply.  This gets ugly quick.

That is absolute bull**** and you know it. It all came down to the supply train, and how far away from their nearest supply depot the army were. Yes, if an army was cut off, it was in deep ****. But as long as the supply train was unbroken, they could sustain themselve for months upon months.
And since the Templars already have supplies established from before they broke with the Chantry, and as they will gain a lot goodwill from the people, who likely be willing to partially supply the Templars, then the Templars are in no real danger of running out of supplies any time soon. They will alse get to loot and pillage any mage sympathizing town, which will add to their supplies.
And exactly what are you basing that the Templars will run out of Lyrium fast on? Other than facts you pull out your ass?
And the reason that the Thirty Years' War was so brutal on the population was because it lasted thirty years, not because of foraging.... Whena  war lasts that long, it will inevitably lead to strained supplies for the countries involved, and it will have a massive toll on the populations of the involved countries.

IanPolaris wrote...

And you might also want to take into consideration the World of Thedas description of the old Inquisition, which sheds more light on the old Order, thana  single line from an obscure codex entry....

The World of Thedas Entry is almost a pure Chantry Whitewash, while the older codex entry is the more honest (if brutal) memories of the old older of Inquisition. 

-Polaris

BOTH entries are from the Chantry. Yet you are only willing to use the one which caters to YOUR point of view... Aaah yes, your famed bias rears its ugly head...

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...
And I'd ignore Lotion Soronnar if I were you as you can't find anyone more biased on forums.

Have you tried looking in the mirrior?

How does that old proverb about trying to remove the splinter from your brothers eye goes? Oh yes..be sure to remove the log from yours before attempting it.

I'm trying to point a way where mages can exist in harmony with everyone else. You go and spread pro templar bias everywhere that all mages are evil and must be eradicated. Even a fool can see the difference between an opinion and bias. I don't know why you can't see your bias.