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[Vit246]

This is why the Templar Rebellion never made much sense to me at all and I just don't know if the writers knew what they were doing. Or what exactly their intentions were.

The Templars basically cut off its nose to spite its face.

The Templars did the following stupid things:
1. They defied the authority of the Chantry (because, offscreen, according to Templars, the Chantry was somehow soft on mages).

2. They cut themselves off from their base of support.
The point of the Chantry's strict control of lyrium supply was that if the Templars ever even did something as outrageous as rebellion, then the Chantry would withhold and probably stop buying the lyrium supply until the Templars came back crawling on their knees for another dosage. Thats how bad its suppose to be. We've seen Templar npcs go nearly insane with a nagging craving for lyrium.
And the Chantry has the money. The kind of money that Templars simply do not have. To buy lyrium from the dwarves. And there's no way smuggling can possibly meet the needs of the entire Templar Order. And there's no way Tevinter would help and no way the Templars would accept.

Steal it? But from where? And how long until that supply runs out? The Chantry will spite the Templars with no more lyrium.

They might get money by hiring themselves out as mercenaries and sellswords but that would divert Templars from their mission to kill mages. And who would hire them anyway? Templars would probably have to demand higher payments in order to somehow acquire lyrium, from the dwarves now probably pressured not to sell to them, in enough quantities.

Besides the lack of lyrium now, there's also food. Which they would now have to "forage" from the local population. Which the secular kingdoms and nobility and authorities will simply not tolerate or actively support.

The Templars, for a long time now, were the Chantry's military branch. NOT an independent autonomous self-sustaining organization. It answered to a higher authority and obeyed and enforced Chantry law and policy. It was supported and supplied by the Chantry because the Chantry has political, economic, and military power.

"An army marches on its stomach." - Napoleon Bonaparte.

I doubt this large-scale templar rebellion would last in the long term to make some kind of difference. Or last long enough and worthwhile enough for a game.

Modifié par Vit246, 30 mai 2013 - 12:48 .

[The Hierophant]

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

[Vit246]

The Hierophant wrote...

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

WHEN, HOW, and WHY would the Templars do that?

Elaborate please.

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

Except that in order to aquire a pickup truck or bomb-creating materials you have to go through a lot of effort and money. Not to mention that goods considered dangerous are difficult to obtain and highly regulated. Even then you are likely to injure yourself in the process if you are not careful. 

Not really.  You can walk in and buy gardening supplies and 10 penny nails along with pipe and you're golden.  I'd rather not go into details here, but such details are readily available on line.  It's easy to make even a citybuster bomb.  It's a lot easier than the police would have you believe.

It's not really comparable to people who can literally set somebody on fire with the click of their fingers or turn into an immensely powerful demon at any moment against their will. 

Actually it is.   If we actually deconstruct the little objective evidence before us and try to quantify the dangers of each, we find that mages going "abomination" are actually extremely rare (this has to be true or else humans wouldn't have survived long enough to become civilized).  Not only that but most mages can barely cast a few simple spells.  From what I understand being able to cast a fireball is something that only a small minority of mages can do.

Most mages die from suicide.

Polaris

[The Hierophant]

Vit246 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

WHEN, HOW, and WHY would the Templars do that?

Elaborate please.

It's only speculation as Anders' Act 2 quest had you travel through a Templar lyrium smuggling passage under the Gallows, so i wouldn't be surprised if they have some secret cache of supplies that's unknown to the Chantry.

At this point there are too many unknowns about the capabilities of the mages and Templars to make any sort of concrete judgement about them.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 mai 2013 - 05:54 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Most peasents have most likely not even met a mage.  However, groups of marauding bandits is a grim reality that rural peasents deal with every day.  When the Templars start acting like Marauding Bandits on a literal Witchhunt (and they will), the peasents are going to hate the immediate threat over the more remote one.

Sez you.
It's far more likely for mages to go about acting like bandits and general d***.

Take a course in midaeval and rennaissance history and pass it.  Pay particular attention to the various wars esp the Thirty Years war which the situation in Thedas bears at least some passing resemblance to.

We know there are far fewer mages, and mages don't require much in the way of special materials to be maintained.  Templars have all the requirement of heavy infantry (which leaves a huge logistical footprint ) AND require lyrium.

The Templars will be a much more immediate and dangerous threat to the peasentry.

Once the Templars have committed an open act of rebellion, the Chantry HAS to try to put it down and blame the Templars or else lose all authority and respect.  That's a big reason why it was so stupid for Lambert to break with the Chantry to start with no matter what (in his mind was) the provocation.

There is no "HAS TO".

Yes there is.  No nation or central authority can tolerate open defiance and maintain that authority.  If a subservient branch commits open rebellion (like Lambert and his Templars have done) the Chantry HAS to respond or else the Chantry loses the ability to control anything even within it's own branches that remain loyal.

Hardly.  As for bias, I think yours is well known and I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

Indeed.
You go ahead and live in the dellusion that you are not biased an no one thinks you are.

What armies had to do to maintain their logistics without a wealthy active patron is historical fact from the thirty years war.  We have no reason to believe the Templars are any different and a lot of reasons to think (because of lyrium) it will be even worse.

-Polaris

[Vit246]

The Hierophant wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

WHEN, HOW, and WHY would the Templars do that?

Elaborate please.

It's only speculation as Anders' Act 2 quest had you travel through a Templar lyrium smuggling passage under the Gallows, so i wouldn't be surprised if they have some secret cache of supplies that's unknown to the Chantry.

At this point there are too many unknowns about the capabilities of the mages and Templars to make any sort of concrete judgement about them.

You may have a point. But what about the quantities? Resupplying? Again, I seriously doubt they'll last long enough.

Modifié par Vit246, 29 mai 2013 - 06:21 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there even is a Lyrium shortage... The Templars ahve probably taken over all the Chantry storages of Lyrium, and they've retaken all the Circles, which probably also had storages of Lyrium, and they can trade with the Dwarves for more. So, it isn't even certain that there is a Lyrium shortage...[/quote]

Actually we know that the Templars lose control of the circles and most of the Lyrium was probably stored there.  If the circles were smart they'd have destroyed any Lyrium they couldn't carry.  That said, I agree that the Templars would start out with some Lyrium with storage.  That's going to run out quickly and things get really ugly when they do.[/quote]
There were no Circle in Rivain, so that Circle's entire Lyrium store is in the possession of the Templars. Several Chantries must also have had hands-on acces to Lyrium, to supply the Templars stationed there. These stores will also be in the possession of the Templars.
And what makes you think that the stores the Templars ahve will run out quickly? What are you basing taht off? Nothing? Oh right, same as usual....
And what makes you think that large quantities of Lyrium can even be destroyed? It is magic made manifest, so I kinda doubt it is as easy as just setting it on fire...
[/quote]

There WAS a circle in Rivvain before Templars from outside Rivvain annulled it.  There was plenty of time for the circle and the native templars to seize and destroy the Lyrium stores there.  As for the rest, I don't deny that the Templars will have some lyrium in storage and that gives them some initial breathing space, but those stores will rapidly run dry.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Dwarves, the Dwarves already have a deal with the Chantry, and you can imagine that the Chantry is going to press the Dwarves not to deal with "traitors" and "heretics".  Given that the Chantry has income and the Templars don't, I don't expect the "New Templars" to get very far in Orzammar....and especially not if there is a circle based there.  King Harrowmount wouldn't deal with aggressive outsiders on general principles,and Bhelen would certainly not want to alienate the human Chantry for political reasons.  Now the Templars could get lyrium via Carta Smuggling, but while Smuggling is good enough to keep a person or small group supplied, it is hopelessly inadequate for the entire Templar order.

-Polaris[/quote]
And the Chantry is going to pressure the Dwarves to let them keep their monopoly exactly how? The Chantry lost all its negotiating power, when they lost the Templars. The Chantry can no longer enforce its demands, and as such it is a wide open market, and there is nothing that will prevent the Dwarves from selling their wares to the Templars. The Chantry is no longer a power that needs to be reckoned with, so the Dwarves no longer have to concern themselves with appeasing the Chantry.
And we don't know if there ever were a Circle in Orzammar, not even for those who made the choices that led to the rumors of one being established there. And I could also easily see the Dwarves evicting any mages seeking refuge in Orzammar, so as to remain neutral in the conflict.
[/quote]

The Chantry pays good money to Orzammar for it's lyrium.  The Chantry has income.  The Templars don't.  As far as Orzammar goes, "He who has the gold makes the rules" and that's not the Templars.



[quote]
That is absolute bull**** and you know it. It all came down to the supply train, and how far away from their nearest supply depot the army were. Yes, if an army was cut off, it was in deep ****. But as long as the supply train was unbroken, they could sustain themselve for months upon months.
[/quote]

Months maybe.  Years, never.  You don't get it.  The Templars don't have any independant means of income or support.  They haven't needed any for almost a thousand years and one isn't going to spring up overnight.  Yes the Templars might have some stores, but that's limited at best.  Again read up on the Thirty Years war.

[quote]
And since the Templars already have supplies established from before they broke with the Chantry, and as they will gain a lot goodwill from the people, who likely be willing to partially supply the Templars, then the Templars are in no real danger of running out of supplies any time soon. They will alse get to loot and pillage any mage sympathizing town, which will add to their supplies.
[/quote]

No peasent is going to willingly give precious food and supplies to an army.  They may do it anyway out of sheer threat of force, but remember the Chantry is now calling these armored knights to be heretics and rebels.  Also remember that everything the Templars take, the local nobility loses, and the local nobles won't view that very kindly.

You are wrong.  The Templars will be forced to "forage" within the year, with all the terrible things that implies.

[quote]
And exactly what are you basing that the Templars will run out of Lyrium fast on? Other than facts you pull out your ass?
And the reason that the Thirty Years' War was so brutal on the population was because it lasted thirty years, not because of foraging.... Whena  war lasts that long, it will inevitably lead to strained supplies for the countries involved, and it will have a massive toll on the populations of the involved countries.
[/quote]

No.  The thirty years war like all other wars was brutal to civilians within the first year because the goverments ran out of mony and supplies to pay for their largely mercenary armies.  The fact it lasted as long as it did made it have a total casaulty rate we now associate with modern wars (and it was far more brutal because of the smaller population in the 15th century), but all wars that lasted more than a few months had the characteristics I mentioned.


[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
[quote]
And you might also want to take into consideration the World of Thedas description of the old Inquisition, which sheds more light on the old Order, thana  single line from an obscure codex entry....
[/quote]

The World of Thedas Entry is almost a pure Chantry Whitewash, while the older codex entry is the more honest (if brutal) memories of the old older of Inquisition. 

-Polaris[/quote]
BOTH entries are from the Chantry. Yet you are only willing to use the one which caters to YOUR point of view... Aaah yes, your famed bias rears its ugly head...
[/quote]

The reputation of the old Inquisition is very telling and it's what Lambert wants to return to.  It was and is a very dark reputation.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

WHEN, HOW, and WHY would the Templars do that?

Elaborate please.

It's only speculation as Anders' Act 2 quest had you travel through a Templar lyrium smuggling passage under the Gallows, so i wouldn't be surprised if they have some secret cache of supplies that's unknown to the Chantry.

At this point there are too many unknowns about the capabilities of the mages and Templars to make any sort of concrete judgement about them.

I disagree.  We can make some educated guesses.  Templars are entitled to their daily doses of lyrium but some smuggle more anyway.  However, it is very clear from other dealings with the Carta (such as with Atheneriel in DA2) that the Carta does a fairly low volume of smuggling, at exorbitantly high prices because of the risk.  A wealty individual or even a well connected small group can get away using smuggling in this way for supplies.  An entire military organization that numbers in the 10s of thousands at least simply can not.  This is why the Chantry maintains it's monopoly on lyrium to begin with....it's essentially extortion to  keep the Templars in line.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  To again clarify, I wouldn't doubt at all that the Templars have some supplies and storehouses of lyrium, and can probably survive off of them for a little while, but based on what I am getting, I suspect that a 'little while" is months rather than years, and we have no evidence (other than smuggling) that the Templars have any way to replenish those lyrium supplies.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 mai 2013 - 06:09 .

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The World of Thedas Entry is almost a pure Chantry Whitewash, while the older codex entry is the more honest (if brutal) memories of the old older of Inquisition. 

-Polaris

BOTH entries are from the Chantry. Yet you are only willing to use the one which caters to YOUR point of view... Aaah yes, your famed bias rears its ugly head...

The reputation of the old Inquisition is very telling and it's what Lambert wants to return to.  It was and is a very dark reputation.

-Polaris

Wasn't it already stated that the Inquisition got a bad rep from making enemies of non mages too, as it targeted whoever was causing chaos. Plus this assumes that Lambert's opinion of the Inquisition is correct, but it contradicts Genetivi's knowledge of the organization.

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't it already stated that the Inquisition got a bad rep from making enemies of non mages too, as it targeted whoever was causing chaos. Plus this assumes that Lambert's opinion of the Inquisition is correct, but it contradicts Genetivi's knowledge of the organization.

Given that it is Lambert that is now leading the Templar rebellion, and given that we know (from DA2) that the Templars are more than willing to slaughter non-mages in order to "do their holy duty", I think we can discount Genetivi's explaination.

OOC:  I think the latest WoT Codex was written so that people wouldn't refuse to play DA3 because of the name alone.  I think it was very stupid of Bioware to call the third installment "Inquisition" because of all the negative freight that word carries both IRL and in the game world.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It all depends if the Templars established their own secret cache or reserve of supplies as the writers never specified the Templars' capabilities outside of Chantry support.

WHEN, HOW, and WHY would the Templars do that?

Elaborate please.

It's only speculation as Anders' Act 2 quest had you travel through a Templar lyrium smuggling passage under the Gallows, so i wouldn't be surprised if they have some secret cache of supplies that's unknown to the Chantry.

At this point there are too many unknowns about the capabilities of the mages and Templars to make any sort of concrete judgement about them.

I disagree.  We can make some educated guesses.  Templars are entitled to their daily doses of lyrium but some smuggle more anyway.  However, it is very clear from other dealings with the Carta (such as with Atheneriel in DA2) that the Carta does a fairly low volume of smuggling, at exorbitantly high prices because of the risk.  A wealty individual or even a well connected small group can get away using smuggling in this way for supplies.  An entire military organization that numbers in the 10s of thousands at least simply can not.  This is why the Chantry maintains it's monopoly on lyrium to begin with....it's essentially extortion to  keep the Templars in line.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  To again clarify, I wouldn't doubt at all that the Templars have some supplies and storehouses of lyrium, and can probably survive off of them for a little while, but based on what I am getting, I suspect that a 'little while" is months rather than years, and we have no evidence (other than smuggling) that the Templars have any way to replenish those lyrium supplies.

We don't know the amount of doses the Templars have to drink daily or for how long they can go inbetween drinks. Then there's the potential for the monarchies, and nobility of Thedas to financially support both sides, and further lengthen the conflict. Then there's the off chance that the Templars could flat out raid the Chantry's store houses for lyrium too. 

There's too many what ifs at this point to guess how events will play out.

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...
We don't know the amount of doses the Templars have to drink daily or for how long they can go inbetween drinks. Then there's the potential for the monarchies, and nobility of Thedas to financially support both sides, and further lengthen the conflict. Then there's the off chance that the Templars could flat out raid the Chantry's store houses for lyrium too. 

There's too many what ifs at this point to guess how events will play out.

You're right that we don't have as much information as we'd like, but that's not the same as not having any.  We know that the Chantry controlls the lyrium trade, and we know (or at least it's very stronly implied) that feeding the Templars take the lion's share.  We also know that there are 10s of thousands (if not more) Templars in Andrastian lands all told.  We also know that even with the Chantry supplying lyrium, there is a strong demand by some Templars for more and such templars are willing to resort to criminal acts and connections to do this.

That implies to me that the total Templar need is significant and that being cut off even for a short while is....problematic.  Of course to quantify this we need more and better info, but we can make educated guesses based on what we do know.

-Polaris

[azarhal]

The Hierophant wrote...

We don't know the amount of doses the Templars have to drink daily or for how long they can go inbetween drinks.

If you read Asunder you do, Evangeline De Brassard mention it toward the end. I don't have the book with me for the accurate information though, sorry.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't it already stated that the Inquisition got a bad rep from making enemies of non mages too, as it targeted whoever was causing chaos. Plus this assumes that Lambert's opinion of the Inquisition is correct, but it contradicts Genetivi's knowledge of the organization.

Given that it is Lambert that is now leading the Templar rebellion, and given that we know (from DA2) that the Templars are more than willing to slaughter non-mages in order to "do their holy duty", I think we can discount Genetivi's explaination.

Not really as it would assume that Lambert's views on the old Inquisition are correct but iirc the writers through Genetivi (scholar/historian) disproves Lambert's assessment of the old Inquisition. The Templars, and Seekers being religious doesn't mean that the old Inquisition was religiously motivated before their partnership with Drakon's Chantry.

OOC:  I think the latest WoT Codex was written so that people wouldn't refuse to play DA3 because of the name alone.  I think it was very stupid of Bioware to call the third installment "Inquisition" because of all the negative freight that word carries both IRL and in the game world.

-Polaris

@ the bolded, agreed.

Don't forget that the info about the Inquisition that came from the Seeker's of Truth codex entry was written by an unknown Chantry priest who admitted in the same passage that he had limited knowledge of the SoT who are supposed to be the modern incarnation of the lesser known Inquisition.

I give the writers props as it calls into question the extent, and accuracy of the priest's knowledge, and allows them to develop the Inquisition in whatever direction they see fit.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 mai 2013 - 07:00 .

[The Hierophant]

azarhal wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

We don't know the amount of doses the Templars have to drink daily or for how long they can go inbetween drinks.

If you read Asunder you do, Evangeline De Brassard mention it toward the end. I don't have the book with me for the accurate information though, sorry.

Crap you too? Anyone who still has their book please answer.

Plus exactly how large were the Templar forces after Lambert voided the NA?

[DKJaigen]

The Hierophant wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

We don't know the amount of doses the Templars have to drink daily or for how long they can go inbetween drinks.

If you read Asunder you do, Evangeline De Brassard mention it toward the end. I don't have the book with me for the accurate information though, sorry.

Crap you too? Anyone who still has their book please answer.

Plus exactly how large were the Templar forces after Lambert voided the NA?

its never mentioned when a templar can no longer use his abilites when he or she stops drinking lyrium. lyrium withdrawal will start to kick in after a week after a month the templar becomes insane.

The templar rebellion only makes sense if Lambert in his arrogance expected a a quick victory. appearently this was not the case

Modifié par DKJaigen, 29 mai 2013 - 07:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Samson didn't get any Lyrium for years, and he remained sane...

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Templars will be a much more immediate and dangerous threat to the peasentry.

And the peasantry is far more likely to support the templars and suply them with money and food.

Yes there is.  No nation or central authority can tolerate open defiance and maintain that authority.  If a subservient branch commits open rebellion (like Lambert and his Templars have done) the Chantry HAS to respond or else the Chantry loses the ability to control anything even within it's own branches that remain loyal.

The Chantry never had full control of templars to begin with.
It was the devine that betrayed the templars, and they are full within their right to break the accord.
Either way, the Templars themselves are not a threat to hte Chantry - tehy are not hostile to it, they do not attack or subvert the Chantry.

Furthermore, the Templars are quite capable of spreading the truth if hte Chantry goes after them, which will hurt the Chantry and it's position of authority far more than any templar schism.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Samson didn't get any Lyrium for years, and he remained sane...

Pay attention mate. your dealing with somebody who is akin to crack addict. he is buying the stuff from the blackmarket

And the peasantry is far more likely to support the templars and suply them with money and food.

I will remind you once again that Thedas is in the medieval time. peasant had little money and food to begin with.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 29 mai 2013 - 08:02 .

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Samson didn't get any Lyrium for years, and he remained sane...

Pay attention mate. your dealing with somebody who is akin to crack addict. he is buying the stuff from the blackmarket

Yep and like a modern crack adict, all his spare money goes to fueling his lyrium addiction.  It's why he's a homeless bum on the street even though he makes good money under the table smuggling people.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The point being is that Samson is getting lyrium fairly regularly albeit at steeply inflated prices and for less (and poorer quality) than he did as a Templar.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 mai 2013 - 08:03 .

[Lulupab]

So this is the legacy of knight commander Meredith and most of Templars in Kirkwall(note that I don't mean this on all templars across Thedas)



They made 3 of mages with grace tranquil randomly just to make them an example to all other mages and create fear. according to chantry rules no mage under any circumstance should be made tranquil if they pass their harrowing. In circle of Ferelden the harshest punishment of being an apostate is being imprisoned in a solo room of circle and not having communication with anyone. As I said legacy of knight commander meredith at its best.

The comment of only real Templar of kirkwall on the matter regarding starkhaven mages with Grace:




Grace kills Thrask at behest of a demon, true but:




Just like so many other mages, she rather to be dead than to be in circle of Kirkwall. There has to be something wrong with this particular circle since this sort of attitude is much less common in other circles like Ferelden. She ate carrion for food to escape the circle...

This is my Hawke reaction to all this:

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Templars will be a much more immediate and dangerous threat to the peasentry.

And the peasantry is far more likely to support the templars and suply them with money and food.

Midaevel peasentry don't have much food or money to spare, and the bane of a rural peasent are bandits and peasents regard any soldiers as bandits for the most part unless strongly controlled by an outside patrol (like a King or high noble or the chantry).  Again read up on warfar during the middle ages and rennescience esp the thirty years war.

Yes there is.  No nation or central authority can tolerate open defiance and maintain that authority.  If a subservient branch commits open rebellion (like Lambert and his Templars have done) the Chantry HAS to respond or else the Chantry loses the ability to control anything even within it's own branches that remain loyal.

The Chantry never had full control of templars to begin with.

Wrong.  The Chantry has always had the Templars by the lyrium short hairs and the Templars definately answered to the Andrastian priesthood as a subordinate order.  That might not have been true when the NA was signed, but this has definately been true for almost a thousand years since.

It was the devine that betrayed the templars, and they are full within their right to break the accord.
Either way, the Templars themselves are not a threat to hte Chantry - tehy are not hostile to it, they do not attack or subvert the Chantry.

Breaking away from the Chanty is an act of defiance and rebellion, and it most certainly is a hostile act.  You can argue (I'd disagree) who is in the right, but unilaterally declaring secession is an act of hostility and agression.  Just ask the CSA about that....oh wait....the CSA no longer exists......

Furthermore, the Templars are quite capable of spreading the truth if hte Chantry goes after them, which will hurt the Chantry and it's position of authority far more than any templar schism.

No they really aren't.  The Templars have (at least for the past thousand years) relied on the Chantry sisterhood/priesthood to carry their message.  Knight Captain Cullen even complains about the Templar's inability to preach their own message...and that's in Kirkwall, a Templar stronghold.

-Polaris

[TK514]

Just an aside on the Lyrium situation, at least in Kirkwall, there a gentleman in the Gallows courtyard in Act 2 complaining that there's so much Lyrium stacked on the docks that they have run out of places to store it. That, along with the smuggling operations, suggests to me that the Kirkwall Circle, at least, was stockpiling it for some reason.

Also, a question: Are there any sources stating the average population of Mages in a Circle?

We do know that there are only 14 Circles outside Tevinter, and at least three, though possibly four, could have been Annulled or destroyed by the time DA3 comes around (Kirkwall, Rivain, Starkhaven and Ferelden). That's (potentially) almost a third of all Circle trained Mages taken out of the picture before the fight's even started, and Ferelden is the only one of those that's optional (Good job, Orsino ). I'd be interested in knowing a rough estimate of Circle trained Mages possible.

[IanPolaris]

TK514 wrote...

Just an aside on the Lyrium situation, at least in Kirkwall, there a gentleman in the Gallows courtyard in Act 2 complaining that there's so much Lyrium stacked on the docks that they have run out of places to store it. That, along with the smuggling operations, suggests to me that the Kirkwall Circle, at least, was stockpiling it for some reason.

No, that's NOT what the dockworker is saying.  Lyrium is poisonious and an environmental hazard.  Not only that, but it also can be explosive.  Leaving lyrium around the docks would be like leaving unshielded plutonium around the docks and THAT is what the dockworker is complaining about.  There is a confiscated cargo of highly toxic material that is actively dangerous to have around, and he has no instructions about what to do with it.

Also, a question: Are there any sources stating the average population of Mages in a Circle?

We do know that there are only 14 Circles outside Tevinter, and at least three, though possibly four, could have been Annulled or destroyed by the time DA3 comes around (Kirkwall, Rivain, Starkhaven and Ferelden). That's (potentially) almost a third of all Circle trained Mages taken out of the picture before the fight's even started, and Ferelden is the only one of those that's optional (Good job, Orsino ). I'd be interested in knowing a rough estimate of Circle trained Mages possible.

We know by the time (see Witch Hunt) that DA3 comes around, the Fereldan circle is a going concern no matter what happened in DAO, so strike Fereldan off that list.  Really the only canonical total loss is Rivvain and that was a minor little war not just a simple annulment.  Depending on what Hawke did, it's quite possible that some (perhaps a significant part) of the Kirkwall/Starkhaven mages actually survived.

Still, we know that Kirkwall's Circle is fairly large.  Best guess, a few thousand mages.  Fereldan's seems to be smaller.

As a rough estimate, call it about a thousand mages a circle for rough numbers.  That's my best guess, so you are looking at perhaps 10-13 thousand circle mages all told over all of Thedas.  We already know the Templars number far more than this (it's one reason why the circles will have a very small logistical footprint).

-Polaris