[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Assuming all apostates are bloodmages is not required by Chantry law. In fact a lot of people including many Templars frown on this. If Kirkwall is lenient, then you must think the Qunari treatment of mage is perfect.[/quote]
I'm not saying all apostates are blood mages, I'm saying all apostates that were in the cave filled with blood mages were
most likely blood mages. Hell, they even use blood magic. How much more conclusive can you get?
[quote]It also makes it harder to actually police those that WANT to obey the rules.[/quote]
Better than having them dead because your leniance caused a situation similar to Ferelden.
[quote]No, at that time tranquility is a death-sentence since it kills the personality[/quote]
Except it's not viewed as one by the Templar and the mundanes. Raise your fists and yell at the clouds all you like, the fact is: they're still alive. Do mages who want tranquility commit "suicide"?
[quote]You get the added benefit of a slave/sex-toy as well (Ser Alrik approves of this message).[/quote]
Which were happening illegally against the Knight-Commander and Grand Cleric's wishes.
[quote]And up until you face Decimus, there is no proof that any of ths Starhaven escapees did either. In fact killing an entire group because one might be guilty is in fact a version of genocide under ethics and law.[/quote]
You're only there to apprehend the Starkhaven escapees who are apostates at the time, you're not there to slaughter them. You discover they've got a group of blood mages in their midsts after you investigate the cave, it's a pretty safe assumption that they've got other blood mages in the group.
No tolerance policy means execution for all of them, the situation has to be contained, "genocide" or not.
[quote]You may not have, but a lot of your fellow travellers that apologize for the Templars do claim this.[/quote]
It's often it's valid, though. We've both been here for years, Polaris, the fact that people want to utterly destroy the Chantry and the Templar to free mages isn't a new thought.
[quote]The Templars (and up until recently the Chantry) has always claimed this to be true, but there is damn little objective and quantative evidence that this is in fact true, and a lot of at least suggestive evidence that strongly indicates that it's not, i.e. the circle creates more abominations both in the circles themselves and in the general populace, than it actualy prevents/protects from.[/quote]
It protects mundanes because when situations like Meredith's sister happens, we've got trained anti-mage soldiers who are called in to deal with it. In addition, any mage who wishes to abuse their powers are confined within the Circle and may not do so as they'd be limited to doing so on anti-mage soldiers.
Any mage who'd turn into an abomination against their will will also be contained within the Circle, protecting the majority of people who'd otherwise be caught up in the abomination's rampage.
Meanwhile we know that mages are provided with food, are provided with shelter, given an education
if they make it to the Circle which Wynne suggests a lot of mages don't.
If the Circle pressures some mages into becoming an abomination, it
still protects the mundanes as they'll live completely unimpacted.
[quote]You treat a person like an animal, don't be shocked if that person acts like an animal and shows you absolutely no mercy when the table are turned.[/quote]
Ok.
[quote]The segretation of mages is a very RECENT thing and not universal. There is no reason to think that other and better solutions can't be found, but right now there is far too much bad blood on both sides, and yes the Templars and Chantry need to take most (not all) of the blame for this.[/quote]
Name one that protects both sides effectively.
Dalish and Avvars don't count because they're nomads.
Rivain throws safety to the wind and shrugs off the deceased.
Tevinter is a literal hellhole for any non-magister.
[quote]The circle system has failed. This is not a matter of opinion any longer. It's a fact. Whatever happens, the old circle system is now a dead letter. It will never be reimplimented no matter what happens.[/quote]
We can't apprehend all mages and throw them back into the Circle? The Circle system wasn't built in a day, rebuilding it will take time but it doesn't mean the system is irreparable.
[quote]The circles are in fact prisons. That also should not be a matter of opinion.[/quote]
My opinion =/= your opinion.
[quote]Being locked up and treated as sub-human because of what you are rather than what you have done tends to do that to ANYONE.[/quote]
And what about the mages who live comfortable lives? What about the mages who enjoy living in the Circles? What about them? Are they treated as "sub-human"?
The most upset mage in the Circle is still clothed, still fed, still educated and doesn't have to work a day in his life. They're the second best thing to nobility or a well-off merchant, they're just restricted in their movements (with the restrictions becoming more and more leniant based off their behavior).
When mages like Ines can travel the world unsupervised and gather herbs or Finn who enjoys Circles and has regular visits from his family, this "sub-human" treatment must be harsh on them.
[quote]Also those that are in charge of prisons (even perfectly justifiable ones) tend to get very mean and even psychotic towards those they are supposed to guard/protect/supervise. *snip*[/quote]
Don't Templar rotate? We've seen Cullen being shipped off, we've heard of Templar being assigned different posts (at Chantries, etc).
[quote]Meredith had to know. Either she was incompetant or she was willfully blind. Either would be a court-martial offense for a C.O. in a modern military.[/quote]
Even if she knew some were being made tranquil illegally, there's little evidence that pointed to who was doing it.
[quote]Nope. The Templars have clearly been part of the chantry and have been so for nearly a thousand years. What Lambert is doing is an open act of defiance and rebellion. Certainly that's how it will be (and IS) viewed (Varric even says as much in 9:40 during his interrogation). The Divine will certainly paint them that way, and Lambert's letter actually suports that view.[/quote]
We're going in circles.
[quote]So they get to commit crimes against people for the greater glory of the Maker. Nice.[/quote]
The fact that the supposed "crimes" they will supposedly do are interpretations of the situation by pro-magers who'd want to see the situation become white and black, it certainly is nice.
[quote]Extremely few mages EVER become abominations. That has always been a canard that the Chantry has thrown to justify how mages were treated.[/quote]
And very few Templar go behind the order's back but it's all we hear non-stop on these forums about how the entire order consists of rapists and murderers.
[quote]Citation needed. Other than Kirkwall which is a magical toxic waste dump where demons can cross over in places WITHOUT magical assistance, there is no evidence that mages become abominations at the drop of a hat and a lot of evidence that they don't.[/quote]
He/she was talking about becoming possessed by spirits to help fight the Templar, my argument was that they're more likely to slaughter their peers than Templar.
[quote]Actually the available evidence suggests that very few mages agree to be possessed by demons and it IS canon that the mage has to agree to it at some level.[/quote]
It was also mentioned in the same post that they might agree without knowing what they're agreeing to. Hell, situations like Mouse in the Harrowing segment of Origins was great at explaining how someone who's slightly naive can become possessed.
Another good situation is Cole who fooled even
himself.
[quote]Mind you, I am not saying that magical regulation and education aren't needed because I think they are, but you are assuming stuff about abominations and such that simply isn't supported other than by old Chantry/Templar sponsered paranoia.[/quote]
I'd like to agree that the number of abominations are exaggerated but the damages they do are not, the fact that mages--whether they want to or not--are capable of massive destruction throughout entire cities is something I'd like to avoid as long as I have a say in it.
Even without demons, I'd still lock up mages (probably in a walled-off and isolated community rather than a tower) because of the potential danger they
could commit.
[quote]I also note on a thematic level, the Asunder clearly shows a shift towards showing the Templars openly rebelling while the Circles at least attempted to play by the rules (if admittedly only barely).[/quote]
The mages opposed Lambert every step of the way. The fact that most mages basically fought him off when he wanted to arrest Rhys--despite having evidence pointing towards him being the murderer of Pharamond--showed me that he still tried to abide by protocol rather than fanatical zeal.
The only hints of "rebellion" was when they showed the Divine working behind Lambert and the Templar's back and assisting the mages, a Divine which is already hated amongst her peers to begin with.
The fact that Lambert's letter basically reads "you're a failure, we served you when our goals aligned but now they don't, have fun! bye xoxox" doesn't really read of rebellion, they're not destroying the Chantry or the establishment, they're just doing their duties against the rebelling mages which the Divine has shown sympathy for.
[quote]As for the ability to treat a difficult moral issue, well, I'd say that BW already failed and has failed at this for some time (at least in this case).[/quote]
Doesn't mean you throw it all aside because of a few mishaps. They ham-fisted both sides in Dragon Age 2 but I'm still going to argue for well-done storytelling rather than going for more ham-fisting.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mai 2013 - 02:23 .
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