336 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

Desperate times and such...

[Sharn01]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I've also never understood what (apart from specific Circle training) stops mages from being adept fighters. Templars are just warriors and rogues with magic-quelling abilities. Teach mages how to use weapons and they may just have the upper hand.

If you paid close attention during Origins you will notice there was optional combat training available to mages to teach them martial combat in the circle, the program was shut down by the Templars who feared the idea of mages who where also capable in combat as well as armed with magic.  Dont forget that in origins Templars hunted single mages in groups and even then it was considered dangerous, it wasnt until DA2 that several dozen mages would cower at the feet of a lone Templar.

[wolfhowwl]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

There's also the point that magical power isn't evenly spread out, you have a few powerful mages (Senior Enchanters onward) but there are mages who can barely light a candle, so unless 3/4+ of the mage population turns to blood magic I don't see where they're getting all the power from.

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.
It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

Mages are already feared and loathed, bringing in the support of the tyrannical, imperialist mageocracy will just push even more people to the Templar's side, likely including many of the national governments.

Also any "deal" with Tevinter is likely to be rather one-sided in their favor...

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 23 mai 2013 - 03:07 .

[sandalisthemaker]

wolfhowwl wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

There's also the point that magical power isn't evenly spread out, you have a few powerful mages (Senior Enchanters onward) but there are mages who can barely light a candle, so unless 3/4+ of the mage population turns to blood magic I don't see where they're getting all the power from.

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.
It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

Mages are already feared and loathed, bringing in the support of the tyrannical, imperialist mageocracy will just push even more people to the Templar's side, likely including many of the national governments.

Yes. They are already feared and loathed.  The point of the rebellion is that many mages are tired of the Circle, tired of being second class citizens.  These national govenments you speak of aren't going to side with them anyway, hence Tevinter.
DA2 established that compromise is not an option at this point. 

[Dr. Doctor]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

There's also the point that magical power isn't evenly spread out, you have a few powerful mages (Senior Enchanters onward) but there are mages who can barely light a candle, so unless 3/4+ of the mage population turns to blood magic I don't see where they're getting all the power from.

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.
It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

So lyrium is kind of like a magical version of the spice Melange from Dune?

[sandalisthemaker]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.
It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

So lyrium is kind of like a magical version of the spice Melange from Dune?

Yeah. I guess so.
Do look it up on the DA wiki. Too much exposure to lyrium has a different effect on mages vs. mundanes. 
The latter just lose their minds, while the former change physically to the point where they aren't recognized by friends or family. They can't even be recognized as human.

[Sir JK]

To be perfectly honest, I don't expect the Mage-Templar war to be anywhere close to as dramatic as it sounds. I doubt there's going to be pitched battles, supply-lines, major sieges of fortresses like in conventional warfare. The mages would simply be one defeat away from the point of no recovery.

I'm expecting it to more take on the form of a massive guerilla war that spans southern Thedas. Where both sides work in small groups (with templar cells being larger than mage cells) and scatter. Both sides having clandestine meetings with locals to gauge whether the local nobility are willing to protect/fund them, doing attacks on one another when they learn of their respective locations (and then moving again), begging, borrowing and stealing supplies and similar.
Lots of random acts of violence in the streets, revenge against people supporting one side or the other. Lots of civilians targetted (for the sake of the argument, Chantry members are not civilians here). There'll be demons summoned to punish regions for not siding with mages, and there will be chantries and merchants attacked by templars in withdrawal. Both perpetrated by renegades in their own faction, but well outside any form of control.

In short... I expect it to be a real bloody civil conflict, rather than a regular war.

[The Hierophant]

Sir JK wrote...

To be perfectly honest, I don't expect the Mage-Templar war to be anywhere close to as dramatic as it sounds. I doubt there's going to be pitched battles, supply-lines, major sieges of fortresses like in conventional warfare. The mages would simply be one defeat away from the point of no recovery.

I'm expecting it to more take on the form of a massive guerilla war that spans southern Thedas. Where both sides work in small groups (with templar cells being larger than mage cells) and scatter. Both sides having clandestine meetings with locals to gauge whether the local nobility are willing to protect/fund them, doing attacks on one another when they learn of their respective locations (and then moving again), begging, borrowing and stealing supplies and similar.
Lots of random acts of violence in the streets, revenge against people supporting one side or the other. Lots of civilians targetted (for the sake of the argument, Chantry members are not civilians here). There'll be demons summoned to punish regions for not siding with mages, and there will be chantries and merchants attacked by templars in withdrawal. Both perpetrated by renegades in their own faction, but well outside any form of control.

In short... I expect it to be a real bloody civil conflict, rather than a regular war.

I think Nevarra, Antiva, and Ferelden might interfere as two nationless armies battling in their territory would be a threat to the stability of their kingdoms.

[Sir JK]

The Hierophant wrote...

I think Nevarra, Antiva, and Ferelden might interfere as two nationless armies battling in their territory would be a threat to the stability of their kingdoms.

Yes, they would and yes, it will. Which is all the more a reason for it to be guerilla warfare. No solid target to strike back against. Just random attacks in the streets.

Kind of like the Troubles.

[The Hierophant]

Sir JK wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I think Nevarra, Antiva, and Ferelden might interfere as two nationless armies battling in their territory would be a threat to the stability of their kingdoms.

Yes, they would and yes, it will. Which is all the more a reason for it to be guerilla warfare. No solid target to strike back against. Just random attacks in the streets.

Kind of like the Troubles.

But with firestorms, rage demons, and empty  lyrium vials all over the place

[Thomas Andresen]

The Hierophant wrote...

I think Nevarra, Antiva, and Ferelden might interfere as two nationless armies battling in their territory would be a threat to the stability of their kingdoms.

I don't know about Nevarra, but Antiva has their own troubles, and Ferelden might still be recovering from the blight. I know Alistair at least would probably have a hard time choosing a side to support, if he even wished to involve himself. Not so sure what Anora's attitudes are.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Thinking about it a bit, just how exactly are mages actually going to fight a war against the templars? They don't have supply lines or supplies, which is quite the serious problem. In the Circles, food and water was (presumably) handled by the Chantry. But now, mages will either need to purchase it (meaning they need coin, so I assume they need industrial scale enchanting) or produce it. Since farming is out of the question, presumably the answer is buy food. Who would sell to the mages? Where would they store it? 

This isn't an especially detailed overview, but it seems to me that mages have quite significant roadblocks in just getting an organization off the ground in a meaningful sense. 

Actually the circles are better off than the Templars in this regard for many reasons:

1.  Magic is a rare and potent resource and the circles have the corner on that commodity.  There will be many nobles and even kings willing to deal with the circles especially since doing so no longer automatically means opposing the Chantry (the Templar decision to leave the Chantry was IMHO strategically and tactically one of the dumbest decisions the Templars could have made).  Fereldan, Rivvain, and Nevarra come immediately to mind.
In fact we know by the end of DA2, that Ferelden at least is essentially a Mage Haven.

2.  Mages are a fairly small grouping of the population with means there is consequently a much shorter logistical tail.

3.  Mages don't depend on rare items or materials just to keep functional.  The Templars do.  Not only does the templar require Lyrium (which they no longer automatically get via the Chantry), but the Templars also need large quantaties of food, metal, and other resources needed to maintain a large force of heavy infantry.  Mages by contrast can actually use their magic to supply for themselves much of their basic needs, and (see one) magical services can easily be used to trade for others esp healing.  I also note that because of this, the Circles won't need to "forage" (i.e pillage the peasents of the lands they occupy) while the Templars will.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think they have just a good a chance to find refuge in Fereldan as they do Tevinter. I suspect that's how the "Dragon Age" is unraveling. First with Maric's war of independence from Orlais, then fending off a blight, now even a chance to form their own peculiar chantry or circle rules. They are etching towards calling shots for themselves more and more.

This is more likely with Alistair on the throne, and it seems like they "really" want to retcon Alistair's place as king anyways.

Indeed by the end of DA2 (no matter who is on the throne) we already know that Fereldan is a Mage Haven in near open defiance of the Chantry...and that's before the Templars break away.  I think it's very likely that Fereldan at least winds up siding with the Circles.

-Polaris

[Ausstig]

IanPolaris wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I think they have just a good a chance to find refuge in Fereldan as they do Tevinter. I suspect that's how the "Dragon Age" is unraveling. First with Maric's war of independence from Orlais, then fending off a blight, now even a chance to form their own peculiar chantry or circle rules. They are etching towards calling shots for themselves more and more.

This is more likely with Alistair on the throne, and it seems like they "really" want to retcon Alistair's place as king anyways.

Indeed by the end of DA2 (no matter who is on the throne) we already know that Fereldan is a Mage Haven in near open defiance of the Chantry...and that's before the Templars break away.  I think it's very likely that Fereldan at least winds up siding with the Circles.

-Polaris

Then I look forward to burning the nation to the ground:devil:

Also more seriously is this true for the Queen as well? I know King dropkic- I mean Alistiar is annoying the Chantry (cause it's real smart to annoy the leader of the faith of your entire people).


Also I like Sir K's idea.

[Fiery Knight]

Sir JK wrote...

In short... I expect it to be a real bloody civil conflict, rather than a regular war.

I expect so as well, and I damn hope BW takes into consideration all the aspects of civil conflict, or war in itself. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

IIRC the Mages literally took over the Circle towers, so they will have at least whatever resources was at hand in those towers, I don't think they remained in the towers though, so they don't have any fortifacations.
Templars on the other hand, do have fortifacations, they also probably have acces to all the Lyrium the Chantry had on hand, and whatever the Circles were forced to leave behind. The Templars are going to war, with an already established infrastructure, whereas the mages must establish theirs, abeit much smaller infrastructure. There are however a lot fewer mages than Templars, which means fewer mouths to feed, but also fewer casualties that can be sustained. All in all, the two sides are pretty much evenly matched.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IIRC the Mages literally took over the Circle towers, so they will have at least whatever resources was at hand in those towers, I don't think they remained in the towers though, so they don't have any fortifacations.
Templars on the other hand, do have fortifacations, they also probably have acces to all the Lyrium the Chantry had on hand, and whatever the Circles were forced to leave behind. The Templars are going to war, with an already established infrastructure, whereas the mages must establish theirs, abeit much smaller infrastructure. There are however a lot fewer mages than Templars, which means fewer mouths to feed, but also fewer casualties that can be sustained. All in all, the two sides are pretty much evenly matched.

I strongly question how much of an organized logistical structure the Templars have.  As I recall they leaned heavily on the Chantry and Circles (for Tranquil) for this.  We also don't know how much lyrium the Templars need per day, but their stores won't last forever, and chances are good that much of it would have been stored at the towers...and that lyrium is gone (at least from the Templar PoV).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 mai 2013 - 05:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IIRC the Mages literally took over the Circle towers, so they will have at least whatever resources was at hand in those towers, I don't think they remained in the towers though, so they don't have any fortifacations.
Templars on the other hand, do have fortifacations, they also probably have acces to all the Lyrium the Chantry had on hand, and whatever the Circles were forced to leave behind. The Templars are going to war, with an already established infrastructure, whereas the mages must establish theirs, abeit much smaller infrastructure. There are however a lot fewer mages than Templars, which means fewer mouths to feed, but also fewer casualties that can be sustained. All in all, the two sides are pretty much evenly matched.

I strongly question how much of an organized logistical structure the Templars have.  As I recall they leaned heavily on the Chantry and Circles (for Tranquil) for this.  We also don't know how much lyrium the Templars need per day, but their stores won't last forever, and chances are good that much of it would have been stored at the towers...and that lyrium is gone (at least from the Templar PoV).

-Polaris

We don't really know anything about the Templar infrastructure. All we know is that they worked for the Chantry. But as they are an army, it stands to reason that they have an organized and functional infrastructure. And with the Templars seceeded from the Chantry, the Chantry have little to enforce their monopoly on the Lyrium tradfe, ergo the Templars could establish trade with Orzammar for Lyrium, their gold supplies wont last forever, so they will require to get some new way of getting gold, though maybe the TEmplars aquired some Tranquil of their own, and thus have the capability of selling magical goods aswell.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We don't really know anything about the Templar infrastructure. All we know is that they worked for the Chantry. But as they are an army, it stands to reason that they have an organized and functional infrastructure. And with the Templars seceeded from the Chantry, the Chantry have little to enforce their monopoly on the Lyrium tradfe, ergo the Templars could establish trade with Orzammar for Lyrium, their gold supplies wont last forever, so they will require to get some new way of getting gold, though maybe the TEmplars aquired some Tranquil of their own, and thus have the capability of selling magical goods aswell.

If you mean established forts and thus supply depots, I won't argue (although I do think it's established that the Templars use the Circle Towers for much of this, and if so this is gone).  However, we are shown no evidence that the Templars have invested in a logistical tail in other respects and plenty that they haven't.

Also remember that this schism occures right at the heels of a major war in Rivvain that was already taking up a considerable amount of Templar resources (see World Of Thedas).

As for the Dwarves, why would the Dwarves deal with anyone other than the Chantry?  Not buying it, and especially not if it's King Bhelen.  Remember that the Chantry has a good supply of income and gold (not to mention trade goods).  The Templars by themselves?  Not so much.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

StreetMagic wrote...

The dwarves already do deal with the Templars (via the Carta). Even under Chantry rule, the Templars are addicts looking for alternative channels. They built a lyrium smuggling route right under the Gallows. That's pretty funny, if you think about it.

That's not the Dwarves.  That's the Carta, i.e the Dwarven mafia so to speak.  Apparently the Carta will do business with anyone.  We are also told that the Carta smuggle which necessarily means a limited supply.  That's enough to keep a handful of templars and others in their fix.  I strongly question whether it would be able to supply the entire Templar Order.

-Polaris