336 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

I'd imagine the logistics would ultimately depend on what support they could get from local authorities.

If a government sees the Templars as the best hope to contain all these dangerous mages from running loose then it shouldn't be too much of a problem to keep 'em supplied in their lands.

It it sees them as a bunch of dangerous rebel loonies with swords, then the Templars will struggle.

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 mai 2013 - 06:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We don't really know anything about the Templar infrastructure. All we know is that they worked for the Chantry. But as they are an army, it stands to reason that they have an organized and functional infrastructure. And with the Templars seceeded from the Chantry, the Chantry have little to enforce their monopoly on the Lyrium tradfe, ergo the Templars could establish trade with Orzammar for Lyrium, their gold supplies wont last forever, so they will require to get some new way of getting gold, though maybe the TEmplars aquired some Tranquil of their own, and thus have the capability of selling magical goods aswell.

If you mean established forts and thus supply depots, I won't argue (although I do think it's established that the Templars use the Circle Towers for much of this, and if so this is gone).  However, we are shown no evidence that the Templars have invested in a logistical tail in other respects and plenty that they haven't.

Also remember that this schism occures right at the heels of a major war in Rivvain that was already taking up a considerable amount of Templar resources (see World Of Thedas).

As for the Dwarves, why would the Dwarves deal with anyone other than the Chantry?  Not buying it, and especially not if it's King Bhelen.  Remember that the Chantry has a good supply of income and gold (not to mention trade goods).  The Templars by themselves?  Not so much.

-Polaris

There is no evidence that the Templars' don't have any infrastructure either. And that was hardly a major "war", it was a conflict and resulted in an Annulment, that is not something that takes up too much of the Templars' overall resources. And the Dwarves would be interrested in selling Lyrium to a broader market, because that would allow them to earn more money. Selling only to one part, doesn't really allow you to control the prices as much as if you are the supplier to multiple factions. If all three factions wants the Lyrium, the Dwarves can artificially raise the price of the Lyrium. Demand would simply be higher, and supply lower, which would increase the price, and it wouldn't cost the Dwarves anything to broaden the trade. 

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no evidence that the Templars' don't have any infrastructure either. And that was hardly a major "war", it was a conflict and resulted in an Annulment, that is not something that takes up too much of the Templars' overall resources. And the Dwarves would be interrested in selling Lyrium to a broader market, because that would allow them to earn more money. Selling only to one part, doesn't really allow you to control the prices as much as if you are the supplier to multiple factions. If all three factions wants the Lyrium, the Dwarves can artificially raise the price of the Lyrium. Demand would simply be higher, and supply lower, which would increase the price, and it wouldn't cost the Dwarves anything to broaden the trade. 

We see the templars depending on Chantry brother and sisters for admin support as well as Tanquil for the same.  We never see the hints of an independant logistical tail for the Templars.  I would also point out that there is a world of difference between being tied up in Rivvain as part of the Chantry (and the conflict is bigger than you seem willing to admit here), and being stranded at the hind end of nowhere (right next to Qunari lands in fact) with NO support from the Chantry.  That cuts off a good part of Templar strength I think.

As for the Dwarves, the Chantry to my knowledge hasn't revoked their monopoly on Lyrium, nor have the Dwarves ended it on their part.  The Chantry has access to a significant income and trade resources via their chantries, and the Dwarves know this.  What do the Templars have to offer?  In the medium to long term 'not much' unless they "forage" which would quickly cost the Templars any good will they might have had from the populace.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  Magic is a rare and potent resource and the circles have the corner on that commodity.  There will be many nobles and even kings willing to deal with the circles especially since doing so no longer automatically means opposing the Chantry (the Templar decision to leave the Chantry was IMHO strategically and tactically one of the dumbest decisions the Templars could have made).  

Why would this be true? Each country has to deal with the issue of a self-proclaimed autonomous group roaving their territory which, at present, has absolutely no fealty to them. 

2.  Mages are a fairly small grouping of the population with means there is consequently a much shorter logistical tail.

But that introduces other problems, namely, replacements for losses sustained in military actions, and the ability to wage war against the templars on a meaningful scale. 

3.  Mages don't depend on rare items or materials just to keep functional.  

They depend on food and water not to starve or die of dehydration, and they depend on shelter not to die of exposure. These things are costly. 

The Templars do.  Not only does the templar require Lyrium (which they no longer automatically get via the Chantry), but the Templars also need large quantaties of food, metal, and other resources needed to maintain a large force of heavy infantry.  Mages by contrast can actually use their magic to supply for themselves much of their basic needs, and (see one) magical services can easily be used to trade for others esp healing.  I also note that because of this, the Circles won't need to "forage" (i.e pillage the peasents of the lands they occupy) while the Templars will.

Mages can't create food out of nothing, or water. Selling healing requires the mages to settle down in an area, and escape an armed attack by the templars. It also requires the actual purchase of their healing supplies. 

I agree with you on the logistical issues facing templars, but I think you're handwaving away the ingrained social problems with mages actually integrating meaningfully as part of the economy of Thedas. 

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed by the end of DA2 (no matter who is on the throne) we already know that Fereldan is a Mage Haven in near open defiance of the Chantry...and that's before the Templars break away.  I think it's very likely that Fereldan at least winds up siding with the Circles.

-Polaris

Then I look forward to burning the nation to the ground:devil: 

If Ferelden could take on the Orlesian Empire and the Fifth Blight...

Ausstig wrote...

Also more seriously is this true for the Queen as well? I know King dropkic- I mean Alistiar is annoying the Chantry (cause it's real smart to annoy the leader of the faith of your entire people).

Given what Wynne says about Queen Anora's desire to improve the lot of mages, her attempt to bring a mage back to the royal court after so many years, and her public endorsement of mages governing themselves, I think so.

[BlueMagitek]

1) Everyone agrees that that Blight wasn't truly a Blight. It was cut down early.
2) Anora would gladly raise mages up or throw them under a bus if it would increase her (and Ferelden's) power. She'll most likely support mages to become a patron of theirs, who they would owe allegiance to.

[Willowhugger]

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

Take note that Fereldan and Kirkwall might support the Mages depending on the PC's actions too.

1. A Free Mage Circle there.
2. The Templars burned their credibility by arresting and murdering nobles.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  Magic is a rare and potent resource and the circles have the corner on that commodity.  There will be many nobles and even kings willing to deal with the circles especially since doing so no longer automatically means opposing the Chantry (the Templar decision to leave the Chantry was IMHO strategically and tactically one of the dumbest decisions the Templars could have made).  

Why would this be true? Each country has to deal with the issue of a self-proclaimed autonomous group roaving their territory which, at present, has absolutely no fealty to them. 

If you mean mages by themselves then sure, but that means the mages would have a need to reach out to allies that can supply them with numbers and those allies would be there (see point one). In fact we already see that w/r/t Fereldan.

2.  Mages are a fairly small grouping of the population with means there is consequently a much shorter logistical tail.

But that introduces other problems, namely, replacements for losses sustained in military actions, and the ability to wage war against the templars on a meaningful scale. 

If you mean mages all by themselves then sure, but as long as mages can keep themselves in the game at the very begining, they can find allies and if you will note point one, those allies were be there to find.  Also mages won't have nearly the impact (and thus need to forage) that Templars will, and thus will generate less ill will.  Also because mages clearly needs numbers, this allows those that make agreements with the circles to do so on more or less equal or even advantageous terms (based on mutual need).

3.  Mages don't depend on rare items or materials just to keep functional.  

They depend on food and water not to starve or die of dehydration, and they depend on shelter not to die of exposure. These things are costly. 

They only depend on as much food and water as the same number of Templars (and perhaps even less given the lack of forging requirements and lack of horses).  For the number of mages and in exchange for what magic brings to the battlefield, these are not very costly.

The Templars do.  Not only does the templar require Lyrium (which they no longer automatically get via the Chantry), but the Templars also need large quantaties of food, metal, and other resources needed to maintain a large force of heavy infantry.  Mages by contrast can actually use their magic to supply for themselves much of their basic needs, and (see one) magical services can easily be used to trade for others esp healing.  I also note that because of this, the Circles won't need to "forage" (i.e pillage the peasents of the lands they occupy) while the Templars will.

Mages can't create food out of nothing, or water. Selling healing requires the mages to settle down in an area, and escape an armed attack by the templars. It also requires the actual purchase of their healing supplies. 

It's not at all clear that mages can't create at least water from nothing (see the various primal spells).  I also note that magic makes for a readily available means of trade (what village wouldn't trade some spare food to heal the sick or injured).  While it would be more efficient to settle down, it's not an absolute requirement.  It IS a requirement to settle down for serious forging and the like, however.  As for purchasing healing supplies, there is always a market for healing supplies and all mages with a basic circle education can at the very minimum make minor healing potions.

I agree with you on the logistical issues facing templars, but I think you're handwaving away the ingrained social problems with mages actually integrating meaningfully as part of the economy of Thedas. 

I don't think you are actually thinking it through.  The politics of power in particular seem to make the situation of the mages a LOT better than you either want or are willing to admit.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Willowhugger wrote...

They need Tevinter. I don't see any other way that the mages could avoid being annihilated, let alone hold their own.It is hinted in the lore that  the strongest magisters in Tevinter have exposed themselves to so much lyrium that they have physically changed and no longer appear human. Presumably they are insanely powerful.
And yes there is always blood magic.

Take note that Fereldan and Kirkwall might support the Mages depending on the PC's actions too.

1. A Free Mage Circle there.
2. The Templars burned their credibility by arresting and murdering nobles.

I also note that Orzammar itself may well have a fully independant circle of magi as well.  If so, that doesn't bode well for the Templars to get much Lyrium from Orzammar (at least beyond smuggling).

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
If you mean mages by themselves then sure, but that means the mages would have a need to reach out to allies that can supply them with numbers and those allies would be there (see point one). In fact we already see that w/r/t Fereldan.

I mean that the mages, without swearing fealty to a lord while retaining an actual institutional and organization structure, are effectively a rogue army within a particular kingdom's borders. If they want self-governance, they're effectively annexing territory. Because they're mages, they're going to attract assaults by the templars. 

There are more political considerations at issue here, like whether or not it would be in the interest of a particular country to actually empower mages. In Ferelden, Alistair (or whomever) has taken a stand to protect the mages from abusive Chantry practices. But that's a long way away from providing economic support to an autonomous mage force. In effect, the mages are currently all wards of the Crown. 

While during the rebellion, mages are ostensibly free. That's a significant shift. They're not loyal to Ferelden. There' s no interest. 

If you mean mages all by themselves then sure, but as long as mages can keep themselves in the game at the very begining, they can find allies and if you will note point one, those allies were be there to find.  

You keep assuming that states are going to send their people to fight and die to create an autonomous mage state, but so far the most that you can offer is that the mages will act as their doctors. There's just no basis to believe mages will have this easy of a time in building any meaningful economic or political alliance. 

Also mages won't have nearly the impact (and thus need to forage) that Templars will, and thus will generate less ill will.  Also because mages clearly needs numbers, this allows those that make agreements with the circles to do so on more or less equal or even advantageous terms (based on mutual need).

I can't parse your last sentence. Could you clarify?

They only depend on as much food and water as the same number of Templars (and perhaps even less given the lack of forging requirements and lack of horses).  For the number of mages and in exchange for what magic brings to the battlefield, these are not very costly.

They cost more than zero, which means that someone has to sell the to the mages. Again, what are the mages offering in return? 

It's not at all clear that mages can't create at least water from nothing (see the various primal spells).  

It's pretty clear that mages actually can't, because if they could it would constitute such a revolutionary development in technology that Thedas couldn't look the way it does. The developers clearly don't mean for this to be true. 

I also note that magic makes for a readily available means of trade (what village wouldn't trade some spare food to heal the sick or injured).

The village that doesn't want to starve to death. You're acting as if there is some magic surplus in a village that will allow them to feed 1000s of people. That's the kind of scale we're talking about. The mages need an entire harvest, something enough to support a whole city. 

Otherwise the mages have to break apart in small enough groups to live off the charity of others (which is literally what you've just suggest they do). And in that case, there's no mage rebellion at all. 

While it would be more efficient to settle down, it's not an absolute requirement.  It IS a requirement to settle down for serious forging and the like, however.  As for purchasing healing supplies, there is always a market for healing supplies and all mages with a basic circle education can at the very minimum make minor healing potions.

What are they making those minor healing potions out of? Where are they getting their glass? Their raw materials? Are they going to harvest an entire field of elfroot clean? Because that's industrial scale agriculture we're talking about.

I don't think you are actually thinking it through.  The politics of power in particular seem to make the situation of the mages a LOT better than you either want or are willing to admit.

What? You're the one ignoring the power dynamics, since you seem to think all of Thedas will roll over to empower an independent rogue force within their powers to wage war against another independent rogue force within their borders. It's the same problem between templars and mages. 

[Willowhugger]

I mean that the mages, without swearing fealty to a lord while retaining an actual institutional and organization structure, are effectively a rogue army within a particular kingdom's borders. If they want self-governance, they're effectively annexing territory. Because they're mages, they're going to attract assaults by the templars.

Historically, you might be surprised at the number of nations which have given shelter to rogue elements of other nations both militarily as well as otherwise. Very often, governments have been known to shelter kings and governments in exile as a means of furthering their own political advantage.

This has precedent in Dragon Age 2 as Teryn Loghain offered to support the Mages right of independence from the Templars, with all that implies, presumably as a means of divorcing Fereldan permanently from the influence of Orlais (which he might view as controlling the Chantry).

The Mages are a united military force with no loyalty to any nation and whichever country which gains their alliance will be effectively unstoppable. Weishaupt's Grey Wardens, notably, control the nation they live in all but name. Alistair may do it on moral grounds and the Free Marches as well as Rivaine may have their own reasons.

This, of course, is assuming the Mages simply don't take over a territory and fortify it against enemies.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
If you mean mages by themselves then sure, but that means the mages would have a need to reach out to allies that can supply them with numbers and those allies would be there (see point one). In fact we already see that w/r/t Fereldan. [/quote]

I mean that the mages, without swearing fealty to a lord while retaining an actual institutional and organization structure, are effectively a rogue army within a particular kingdom's borders. If they want self-governance, they're effectively annexing territory. Because they're mages, they're going to attract assaults by the templars. 

There are more political considerations at issue here, like whether or not it would be in the interest of a particular country to actually empower mages. In Ferelden, Alistair (or whomever) has taken a stand to protect the mages from abusive Chantry practices. But that's a long way away from providing economic support to an autonomous mage force. In effect, the mages are currently all wards of the Crown. 

While during the rebellion, mages are ostensibly free. That's a significant shift. They're not loyal to Ferelden. There' s no interest. 
[/quote]

On the contrary, as other posters have already said, there is tons of historical precedent for nations and rulers offering sancturary and free havens (and even limited autonomy) to rebel/rebellious groups from other nations.  There is no reason why any number of canny nobles wouldn't come to a treaty arrangement or other arrangments especially when there is a clear mutual need.  In fact we already see this happening in Fereldan.

Given that a magically assisted army is grossly more effective (the last exalted marches proved this) over even a technologically superior mundane army, there is lots of reasons for various rulers to cut such deals regardless of their personal feelings.

[quote]
[quote]
If you mean mages all by themselves then sure, but as long as mages can keep themselves in the game at the very begining, they can find allies and if you will note point one, those allies were be there to find.  [/quote]

You keep assuming that states are going to send their people to fight and die to create an autonomous mage state, but so far the most that you can offer is that the mages will act as their doctors. There's just no basis to believe mages will have this easy of a time in building any meaningful economic or political alliance. 
[/quote]

Don't put words in my mouth.  I said nothing about an autonomous mage state.  However, the fact is that the circle mages offer a ruler something of value, and rulers value things and people of value....enough to fight for it if our real history is any judge.  As for an easy time, I think it's easier than you want to believe (which does not mean it will be easy).  Once one nation starts incorporating magic into it's economy and more importantly military (and that nation right now clearly seems to be Fereldan), then the other nobles will hasten to do the same lest they come out on the short end.  This has nothing to do with religious faith or personal feelings.  This is pure power politics.

[quote]


[quote]Also mages won't have nearly the impact (and thus need to forage) that Templars will, and thus will generate less ill will.  Also because mages clearly needs numbers, this allows those that make agreements with the circles to do so on more or less equal or even advantageous terms (based on mutual need). [/quote]

I can't parse your last sentence. Could you clarify?
[/quote]

Basically the small number of mages means they have a NEED to make an honest deal with various elements of the nobility.  That's an effective assurance that any deal struck will be more-or-less an honest one.

[quote]

[quote]They only depend on as much food and water as the same number of Templars (and perhaps even less given the lack of forging requirements and lack of horses).  For the number of mages and in exchange for what magic brings to the battlefield, these are not very costly. [/quote]

They cost more than zero, which means that someone has to sell the to the mages. Again, what are the mages offering in return? 
[/quote]

A simple heal spell would make someone an instant millionaire in today's society.  That's just the beginning.


[quote]

[quote]It's not at all clear that mages can't create at least water from nothing (see the various primal spells).   [/quote]

It's pretty clear that mages actually can't, because if they could it would constitute such a revolutionary development in technology that Thedas couldn't look the way it does. The developers clearly don't mean for this to be true. 
[/quote]

Citation Needed.  There is a lot of things about magic that could be used a lot better than they really are, but aren't in large part because the Chantry supresses original research (and not just magical research).  Empress Celene and the Chantry have had some very unfriendly confrontations regarding Orlesian universities.


[quote]

[quote]I also note that magic makes for a readily available means of trade (what village wouldn't trade some spare food to heal the sick or injured). [/quote]
The village that doesn't want to starve to death. You're acting as if there is some magic surplus in a village that will allow them to feed 1000s of people. That's the kind of scale we're talking about. The mages need an entire harvest, something enough to support a whole city. 
[/quote]

You seem to act as though rural villages only make enough to barely support themselves.  Even with medieval farming techniques that was almost never true except in times of extreme famine.  Given the various uses of magic that we already see, even a modest amount of magical help would actually increase a village's yield far more than they would have to 'pay' to keep the mages in food.

[quote]
Otherwise the mages have to break apart in small enough groups to live off the charity of others (which is literally what you've just suggest they do). And in that case, there's no mage rebellion at all. 
[/quote]

You need to read Mao's little red book.  This is exactly how the Reds won in China and it's how the Shining Path operates in Peru.


[quote]

[quote]While it would be more efficient to settle down, it's not an absolute requirement.  It IS a requirement to settle down for serious forging and the like, however.  As for purchasing healing supplies, there is always a market for healing supplies and all mages with a basic circle education can at the very minimum make minor healing potions. [/quote]
What are they making those minor healing potions out of? Where are they getting their glass? Their raw materials? Are they going to harvest an entire field of elfroot clean? Because that's industrial scale agriculture we're talking about.
[/quote]

Who needs glass (although apparently phials in Thedas aren't that expensive).  Simple bowls and mugs would do, and elf-root and other such herbs seem to be exceedingly common.  You are inventing difficulty at this point.

[quote]
[quote]
I don't think you are actually thinking it through.  The politics of power in particular seem to make the situation of the mages a LOT better than you either want or are willing to admit.[/quote]

What? You're the one ignoring the power dynamics, since you seem to think all of Thedas will roll over to empower an independent rogue force within their powers to wage war against another independent rogue force within their borders. It's the same problem between templars and mages. 

[/quote]

I am not ignoring power dynamics.  Given that mages can do things that no one else can, and it's known they act as a tremendous force multiplier both in military and economic power, there will be many rules that will want in on that power assuming that it can't be completely destroyed (and we know it can't be).  As long as even one nation starts nationalizing/using it's magical talent and offers itself as a Haven (see both Fereldan and Orzammar), then others will be compelled to follow by the very narrow self interest that you cite.  Read "The Prince"

-Polaris

[Willowhugger]

There's also the fact mages may simply wage a guerilla campaign against the Templars.

[Creepyfly]

the Mages VS Templar war should have the warden come back and fight for Orlais and get a mage army VS Templar army and you choose your side and your race and fight the war and spies from Orlais VS Ativan assassins and finally the Tivinter imperium also old favorites return. and then the war begins when the Templars kill the first enchanter and the Mages Kill the Templars in their tower.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I am not ignoring power dynamics. Given that mages can do things that no one else can, and it's known they act as a tremendous force multiplier both in military and economic power, there will be many rules that will want in on that power assuming that it can't be completely destroyed (and we know it can't be). As long as even one nation starts nationalizing/using it's magical talent and offers itself as a Haven (see both Fereldan and Orzammar), then others will be compelled to follow by the very narrow self interest that you cite. Read "The Prince"

-Polaris

Actually, they are more likey to demonize tham and declare war.

You get the neghbouring countries to ally agaisnt the offending one and destroy it.
You get more lebensraum while staying on everyones good side.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 mai 2013 - 09:51 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Terrorism

They will have the indoctrination of the Chantry working against them.  Although in this case, I agree with the Chantry

[PlasmaCheese]

I think a lot of this is assuming ALL Templars feel the same as other Templars and ALL Mages feel the same as other Mages. There will probably be some mage/templar groups working together for whatever end. Some mages felt the Circle was a necessary evil, some templars helped apostates escape or thought Meredith was insane. A group of them together could do a lot of damage, or take a diplomatic route and try to "convert" others to their cause to gain followers. I don't see such groups getting far, but I think it'll factor in. Even if a few band together just to survive and see what the hell happens to Thedas.

[Nightdragon8]

Considering it seems Templars can't "feel" if someone is a mage or not then I think most mages will just slip in to sociry and not be noticed, unless something bad happens around them like a fire or someone is hurt. I mean I think most of them want just a "normal" life.

While others will want revolution, they will attack the chantery's Templar bases and even Lyrium supply depots. And leaders who "want the mage scourge put down" but I think otherwise it will be a gorilla style warfare where IMO Templars will be losing or very disadvantaged.

I mean considering Lyrium will be the major focus in the war, considering the mages can use it (but dont require it) but the Templars Requires it. puts them at a serious disadvantage. . I'm sure the amount needed really isn't all "That" much but it would still factor in.

Edit: Just had a "screwed up thought" maybe there is a point where Templars will get so Lyrium deprived that hunting bands will get formed to hunt down mages and drink there blood. and in doing so end up becoming something like the darkspawn. 

yes i know screwed up is more like horror nightmare fuel stuff

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 24 mai 2013 - 10:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pont is, the rest of the world won't just quietly watch from the sidelines.

They will take sides and I bet most will side with the Templars.

[Willowhugger]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pont is, the rest of the world won't just quietly watch from the sidelines.

They will take sides and I bet most will side with the Templars.

I doubt it. Orlais has burned most of the Chantry's good will.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I am not ignoring power dynamics. Given that mages can do things that no one else can, and it's known they act as a tremendous force multiplier both in military and economic power, there will be many rules that will want in on that power assuming that it can't be completely destroyed (and we know it can't be). As long as even one nation starts nationalizing/using it's magical talent and offers itself as a Haven (see both Fereldan and Orzammar), then others will be compelled to follow by the very narrow self interest that you cite. Read "The Prince"

-Polaris

Actually, they are more likey to demonize tham and declare war.

You get the neghbouring countries to ally agaisnt the offending one and destroy it.
You get more lebensraum while staying on everyones good side.

You need to read more history.  We are already seeing cracks in the anti-mage stance in the nobility first with Fereldan and now Neverra, and of cours how the Templars have treated Rivvain has put the other nobles on notice....and not in the way the Templars would like given that the templars are no longer part of the Chantry.

If another nation gets nukes the first thing you want to do is get nukes yourself.  In the same way, if another nation starts really integrating it's mages, then you want to start getting some magic on your side.  That's simple power politics.

-Polaris