336 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well, considering mages only really need food, water, and some medical supplies, and the templars require a constant supply of weapons, armor, repair smiths, food, water, full medical staffs, lyrium(for their addictions), and a whole host of other needs, the mages have the advantage.

Additionally, the mages can always resort to gurellia warfare, which could bleed the templars dry in a war of attrition.

Either way though, the cost of the war could very well bankrupt the chantry and the countires aiding it, and cause a complete collapse of trade if it is allowed to drag on too long.

[Medhia Nox]

The problem is - that these "nukes" have a will of their own. Any nation's leader would be a bleeding imbecile to allow these mages safe harbor.

One - just one - of these mages, turning to blood magic - could overthrow your entire empire without policing.

I find it far more likely for the Templars to be hired as a mercenary band to keep these wayward powermongers at bay.

I would equate harboring one mage to "purchasing" a mercenary army and allowing it to bleed your lands dry. You had BEST keep those mercenaries happy - or else you're screwed.  It was a terrible gamble in our ancient and medieval history (less so as militaries became the norm)... it would be suicide in this fantasy world.

I think some people play Bioware protagonists too much. Normal NPCs cannot resist blood magic from what we're shown. No ruler who wants to remain such would allow mages to run amok in his kingdom... thouhg any ruler who doesn't think these mages are ALREADY running amok... does kinda deserve to lose their throne.

I hope some mage blood magic controls Alistair.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 mai 2013 - 02:36 .

[DKJaigen]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The problem is - that these "nukes" have a will of their own. Any nation's leader would be a bleeding imbecile to allow these mages safe harbor.

One - just one - of these mages, turning to blood magic - could overthrow your entire empire without policing.

I find it far more likely for the Templars to be hired as a mercenary band to keep these wayward powermongers at bay.

I would equate harboring one mage to "purchasing" a mercenary army and allowing it to bleed your lands dry. You had BEST keep those mercenaries happy - or else you're screwed.  It was a terrible gamble in our ancient and medieval history (less so as militaries became the norm)... it would be suicide in this fantasy world.

I think some people play Bioware protagonists too much. Normal NPCs cannot resist blood magic from what we're shown. No ruler who wants to remain such would allow mages to run amok in his kingdom... thouhg any ruler who doesn't think these mages are ALREADY running amok... does kinda deserve to lose their throne.

I hope some mage blood magic controls Alistair.

Nonsense templars cannot control bloodmages. The only ones that can are other mages. So having mages at hand its the only way to safeguard yourself from blood mages.

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The problem is - that these "nukes" have a will of their own. Any nation's leader would be a bleeding imbecile to allow these mages safe harbor.

One - just one - of these mages, turning to blood magic - could overthrow your entire empire without policing.

I find it far more likely for the Templars to be hired as a mercenary band to keep these wayward powermongers at bay.

I would equate harboring one mage to "purchasing" a mercenary army and allowing it to bleed your lands dry. You had BEST keep those mercenaries happy - or else you're screwed.  It was a terrible gamble in our ancient and medieval history (less so as militaries became the norm)... it would be suicide in this fantasy world.

I think some people play Bioware protagonists too much. Normal NPCs cannot resist blood magic from what we're shown. No ruler who wants to remain such would allow mages to run amok in his kingdom... thouhg any ruler who doesn't think these mages are ALREADY running amok... does kinda deserve to lose their throne.

I hope some mage blood magic controls Alistair.

Nonsense templars cannot control bloodmages. The only ones that can are other mages. So having mages at hand its the only way to safeguard yourself from blood mages.

Indeed DA2 at several junctions makes it clear that the only way to fight bloodmagic is to have magic (and preferably bloodmagic) on your side.  Bloodmagic isn't inherently evil, and mind control is neither as easy nor as pervasive as the chantry would have you believe with bloodmagic.  If it were, then all of Thedas should have been controlled by Tevinter bloodmages a long time ago with no hope of rebellion.  Since that hasn't happened, we know that mind-control magic isn't nearly as easy or as completely invicible as the Chantry's fear mongering would have you think...which does not mean it's not a powerful tool/weapon and can do great harm in the wrong hands.

I note that the Litany of Adralla is in fact blood magic.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

That isn't entirely correct. The only disadvantage a Templar faces against a Blood Mage, is taht he can't cut off the Mage's conenction to his mana, since the Blood Mage doesn't use mana. The Templar abilities, such as silence, and his increased mental resistance, are still great weapons against blood mages.

And you ASSUME that the Litany is blood magic. It might have been worked out by a blood mage, but the fact that a mundane can invoke its power, lend credence to the opinion that it isn't blood magic.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[Plaintiff]

Both sides will hole up in their respective strongholds and wait for an uninvolved third party to show up, to ask for their assistance in a completely unrelated issue.

[Fiery Knight]

Plaintiff wrote...

Both sides will hole up in their respective strongholds and wait for an uninvolved third party to show up, to ask for their assistance in a completely unrelated issue.

lol wouldn't be surprised where that to happen.

[Treacherous J Slither]

It will be guerilla warfare. A bunch of mages blended into the populace, blowing up Templar bases and Chantries left and right.

How can you stop that? Something goes up in smoke but there's no smoking gun. No glowing target. Just a bunch of people going about their business. Unless the Templars find a way to identify a mage by sight, they're doomed.

[LogicGunn]

Templars have the hierarchy and the battle training, but mages will have the numbers and superior firepower, even if they avoid the magisters. I suspect the protagonist will be responsible for rounding up and co-ordinating their chosen side, and will sway the outcome.

[BlazingSpeed]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I've also never understood what (apart from specific Circle training) stops mages from being adept fighters. Templars are just warriors and rogues with magic-quelling abilities. Teach mages how to use weapons and they may just have the upper hand.

The Codex in Dragon Age Origins covers this an Enchanter steps down because after his student is murdered by some common thugs he wanted to train mages to fighting using weapons but the Circle said nope.

Same with the mages getting supplies issue the Warden could choose to help the Mages Collective by delivering Deep Mushrooms and few other things for some coin.

[The Hierophant]

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The problem is - that these "nukes" have a will of their own. Any nation's leader would be a bleeding imbecile to allow these mages safe harbor.

One - just one - of these mages, turning to blood magic - could overthrow your entire empire without policing.

I find it far more likely for the Templars to be hired as a mercenary band to keep these wayward powermongers at bay.

I would equate harboring one mage to "purchasing" a mercenary army and allowing it to bleed your lands dry. You had BEST keep those mercenaries happy - or else you're screwed.  It was a terrible gamble in our ancient and medieval history (less so as militaries became the norm)... it would be suicide in this fantasy world.

I think some people play Bioware protagonists too much. Normal NPCs cannot resist blood magic from what we're shown. No ruler who wants to remain such would allow mages to run amok in his kingdom... thouhg any ruler who doesn't think these mages are ALREADY running amok... does kinda deserve to lose their throne.

I hope some mage blood magic controls Alistair.

Nonsense templars cannot control bloodmages. The only ones that can are other mages. So having mages at hand its the only way to safeguard yourself from blood mages.

Mages in DAO & DA2 have yet to show that they can control bloodmages as Uldred and his followers completely disregarded the vote of the majority, overpowered them, and converted them into abominations as to be used as canon fodder against the Templars. Then there's Jowan in general, Orsino vs Quentin, Marethari vs Merrill, Grace not stopping Decimus, and her murdering Thrask with no mage in the vicinity stopping her.

Plus composing an entire police force of only one demographic like the Templars (non mages) will only lead to a future conflict as the police force (mages) will potentially lack empathy towards the issues non mages will have with them.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 mai 2013 - 05:03 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

Mages in DAO & DA2 have yet to show that they can control bloodmages as Uldred and his followers completely disregarded the vote of the majority, overpowered them, and converted them into abominations as to be used as canon fodder against the Templars. Then there's Jowan in general, Orsino vs Quentin, Marethari vs Merrill, Grace not stopping Decimus, and her murdering Thrask with no mage in the vicinity stopping her.

Uldred had a significant number of completely unknown bloodmages that were able to strike with complete suprise. By the time anyone could get a defense organized, the battle for the Fereldan tower was already over. Also bear in mind that Uldred became a Pride Abomination, and that's a handful no matter who you are talking about.

That said, we need magic to determine if someone is possessed or not, and we need magic to protect us from bloodmagic (either by the Litany which is expressely a magic spell) or by the active use of magic by either Anders, Bethany, or Merrill. Not only that, but there are many spells that will shut down mages pretty much instantly (like Mana clash) far more reliably than any Templar ability.

Plus composing an entire police force of only one demographic like the Templars (non mages) will only lead to a future conflict as the police force (mages) will potentially lack empathy towards the issues non mages will have with them.

No one is suggesting this. I have always suggested that a Magical Police force have BOTH mundanes with Templar-like training/abilities and mages. However, the one thing that remains true in Thedas is that the best defense against magic is well....magic.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Mages in DAO & DA2 have yet to show that they can control bloodmages as Uldred and his followers completely disregarded the vote of the majority, overpowered them, and converted them into abominations as to be used as canon fodder against the Templars. Then there's Jowan in general, Orsino vs Quentin, Marethari vs Merrill, Grace not stopping Decimus, and her murdering Thrask with no mage in the vicinity stopping her.

Uldred had a significant number of completely unknown bloodmages that were able to strike with complete suprise. By the time anyone could get a defense organized, the battle for the Fereldan tower was already over. Also bear in mind that Uldred became a Pride Abomination, and that's a handful no matter who you are talking about.

That said, we need magic to determine if someone is possessed or not, and we need magic to protect us from bloodmagic (either by the Litany which is expressely a magic spell) or by the active use of magic by either Anders, Bethany, or Merrill. Not only that, but there are many spells that will shut down mages pretty much instantly (like Mana clash) far more reliably than any Templar ability.

I doubt magic is effective as you state in curbing criminals, blood magic or demons as Adralla was still run out of Tevinter, Niall was still murked by the sloth demon, while the Tevinter Circle and Magisters used a contingent of Templars to put down demons, abominations and rogue bloodmages. 
 
Using magic to counter magic is only responding the crime after it's been commited, rather than preventing it to begin with, whether it's through surveillance, oversight , etc.

Plus composing an entire police force of only one demographic like the Templars (non mages) will only lead to a future conflict as the police force (mages) will potentially lack empathy towards the issues non mages will have with them.

No one is suggesting this. I have always suggested that a Magical Police force have BOTH mundanes with Templar-like training/abilities and mages. However, the one thing that remains true in Thedas is that the best defense against magic is well....magic.

-Polaris

Aside from the Litany of Adralla the problem with magic is that it's mostly been used after the crime or possession was commited, while the only deterrence is the fear of execution or imprisonment. Plus there's still the problem of scrub mages who lack the ability to resist demons or mages who willing summon them like Lady Harimann. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 mai 2013 - 07:10 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

"No one is suggesting this. I have always suggested that a Magical Police force have BOTH mundanes with Templar-like training/abilities and mages. However, the one thing that remains true in Thedas is that the best defense against magic is well....magic."

some mages as Falstick(apostage, chief/priest of old god worshipers band) know Templars tricks wery well and use it much better than squad of Templars(and we know that mages even without Templars tricks can always learn Mana clash)

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 25 mai 2013 - 07:15 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt magic is effective as you state in curbing criminals, blood magic or demons as Adralla was still run out of Tevinter, Niall was still murked by the sloth demon, while the Tevinter Circle and Magisters used a contingent of Templars to put down demons, abominations and rogue bloodmages. 

Adralla was run out of Tevinter because:

1.  She was on the losing side of Magister power politics in Tevinter.
2.  The Tevinter Magi were afraid that she could control their magic better than anyone else.

As for your other examples, they are intrinsically unfair.  Some demons are powerful enough even in their own domains to murk (as you put it) anyone.   However, it's much easier to fight abominations and demons as a mage than any other class.

Given that magic can do so many things to asist investigations not to mention help against enemy magic, it's illogical NOT to use magic to police magic.  Even Templars use magic.  They just don't admit it.
 

Using magic to counter magic is only responding the crime after it's been commited, rather than preventing it to begin with, whether it's through surveillance, oversight , etc.

It doesn't have to be that way.  We know that magic can tell if a person is possessed passively.  That can be a great use of a deterrent (before the possessed person can do any more harm).  I also note that you sneer a bit too much at the ability of stopping crime after the fact.  While not ideal, it's better than not being able to stop it at all.  I also don't get why you don't think magic (which can do things like SCRY and DETECT LIES) couldn't be used to help prevent crime.

Aside from the Litany of Adralla the problem with magic is that it's mostly been used after the crime or possession was commited, while the only deterrence is the fear of execution or imprisonment. Plus there's still the problem of scrub mages who lack the ability to resist demons or mages who willing summon them like Lady Harimann. 

That's the fault of the Chantry.  I also note that you can't use Kirkwall as a valid example because the veil is so thin there the normal rules don't apply.  For example Lady Harriman isn't a mage at all......she is mundane who was granted the abilities of a mage by a desire demon because the Veil was thin enough to permit this.

-Polaris

[Insaner Robot]

If the magisters were afraid of Adralla it was most likely because she was attempting to develop defences that could have one day rendered every advantage they gained from blood magic irrelevant. Not because she was a better blood mage.

In fact what we know of her background seems to suggest she never personally practiced blood magic.

"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons."

[LobselVith8]

Insaner Robot wrote...

If the magisters were afraid of Adralla it was most likely because she was attempting to develop defences that could have one day rendered every advantage they gained from blood magic irrelevant. Not because she was a better blood mage.

Not every advantage; simply mind control.

Insaner Robot wrote...

In fact what we know of her background seems to suggest she never personally practiced blood magic.

Which makes it odd that Adralla would know how to counter it, then. If she was a practicing blood mage, then I can see how she would know how to counter it.

Insaner Robot wrote...

"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons."

If Adralla was a blood mage, do you honestly think the Andrastian Chantry would admit it?

[Insaner Robot]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not every advantage; simply mind control.

That was merely before she was run out of Tevinter by the magisters. And I did only say attempting to develop defences that could have one day rendered the irrelevant, not had or would. As you pointed out she hadn't at that point and she may not have ever, but the magisters didn't want to risk it.

Which makes it odd that Adralla would know how to counter it, then. If she was a practicing blood mage, then I can see how she would know how to counter it.

She lived in Tevinter at the time, possibly the most magically focused place in thedas and dedicated herself to the academic study of blood magic. It's impossible to say what kind of information on the subject she may have researched, but she clearly was able able to develop a hypothesis (or hypotheses) that she was able test and develop several theories.

Evidenced by the fact she created the litany, defences against dreamers who were some of the most dangerous magisters and counters for summoning demons.

If Adralla was a blood mage, do you honestly think the Andrastian Chantry would admit it?

The chantry and the templars go to great lengths to discourage the study of blood magic. do you honestly think they would glorify any aspect of study by leaving any blood magic in the history of Adralla if they were going to change it?
Because that would seem to encourage acquiring as much knowledge on the subject as possible, which would increase temptation to use it.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt magic is effective as you state in curbing criminals, blood magic or demons as Adralla was still run out of Tevinter, Niall was still murked by the sloth demon, while the Tevinter Circle and Magisters used a contingent of Templars to put down demons, abominations and rogue bloodmages. 

Adralla was run out of Tevinter because:

1.  She was on the losing side of Magister power politics in Tevinter.
2.  The Tevinter Magi were afraid that she could control their magic better than anyone else.

As for your other examples, they are intrinsically unfair.  Some demons are powerful enough even in their own domains to murk (as you put it) anyone.   However, it's much easier to fight abominations and demons as a mage than any other class.

My example was highlighting how Adralla's research was only geared towards mind control and demon summoning, and didn't make her immune to demon attacks or other forms of magic that the Magisters could have threatened her with.

Plus aside from The Warden, Hawke, Morrigan, Anders and Wynne who are fantastical, the mages easily killing demons seems like gameplay and story segregation as the Ferelden Circle incident should've been easily contained, while Avernus wouldn't need to lock himself away for 200 years.

Given that magic can do so many things to asist investigations not to mention help against enemy magic, it's illogical NOT to use magic to police magic.  Even Templars use magic.  They just don't admit it.

True, the downside is it's only limited to magic negation or harming magic using beings. It makes you wonder what else could people could achieve with lyrium.

 

Using magic to counter magic is only responding the crime after it's been commited, rather than preventing it to begin with, whether it's through surveillance, oversight , etc.

It doesn't have to be that way.  We know that magic can tell if a person is possessed passively.  That can be a great use of a deterrent (before the possessed person can do any more harm).  I also note that you sneer a bit too much at the ability of stopping crime after the fact.  While not ideal, it's better than not being able to stop it at all. I also don't get why you don't think magic (which can do things like SCRY and DETECT LIES) couldn't be used to help prevent crime.

Mind you the suspected abomination could already be on a muderous rampage after the mage is possessed while It also depends on how common place those abilities are amongst mages as they could have been used to catch Jowan without the need for the elaborate plan to implicate him as a blood mage. 

I remember Anders had a demon scanning ability but assumed it's an ability specific to him as he's an abomination.

Aside from the Litany of Adralla the problem with magic is that it's mostly been used after the crime or possession was commited, while the only deterrence is the fear of execution or imprisonment. Plus there's still the problem of scrub mages who lack the ability to resist demons or mages who willing summon them like Lady Harimann. 

That's the fault of the Chantry.  I also note that you can't use Kirkwall as a valid example because the veil is so thin there the normal rules don't apply. For example Lady Harriman isn't a mage at all......she is mundane who was granted the abilities of a mage by a desire demon because the Veil was thin enough to permit this.

-Polaris

It's not solely the fault of the Chantry as there is no mention in the lore especially with Tevinter of any magical application that flat out negates magic spells, possession, or demon summoning aside from the Litany or tranquility.

Regarding Lady Harimann i don't remember there being any dialogue that stated that she became a mage from dealing with Allure only that Allure granted her more power to take Starkhaven's throne?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 mai 2013 - 10:24 .

[Willowhugger]

Plus aside from The Warden, Hawke, Morrigan, Anders and Wynne who
are fantastical, the mages easily killing demons seems like gameplay and
story segregation as the Ferelden Circle incident should've been easily
contained, while Avernus wouldn't need to lock himself away for 200
years

Avernus could have left any time he wanted to. He just left the whole thing up until someone else could risk their lives fixing it. It was never a danger to him.

I also take it as the fact Wynne, the Warden, and so on are ridiculously better than most.

[Mykel54]

The templars are pretty much designed to be anti-casters, so the mages don´t stand a chance on an equal footing.

If that wasn´t enough, the mob will side agaisnt the magickers and the rulers of the andrastian nations will side agaisnt them too for fear of another Tevinter.

The mages are screwed.

[Willowhugger]

Mykel54 wrote...

The templars are pretty much designed to be anti-casters, so the mages don´t stand a chance on an equal footing.

If that wasn´t enough, the mob will side agaisnt the magickers and the rulers of the andrastian nations will side agaisnt them too for fear of another Tevinter.

The mages are screwed.

The Andrastian nations are:

Fereldan--which will side with whatever nation isn't Orlais.

Rivian--which is Pro Apostate from top to bottom when not Qunari.

Antivia--which I doubt cares one way or the other.

Orlais -- which is a ruthless collection of backstabbing schemers.

The  Anderfels -- which are controlled by the Grey Wardens. They might give the mages sanctuary just to oppose the next Blight.

The Free Marches--which HATE the Templars.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 26 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[Bleachrude]

The Anderfels are noted to be even more pro-Chantry than even Orlais...no chance of the anderfels being symapthetic to the mages IMO.