336 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

Bleachrude wrote...

The Anderfels are noted to be even more pro-Chantry than even Orlais...no chance of the anderfels being symapthetic to the mages IMO.

Which doesn't affect the mages at all.  Again, the Chantry is neutral in the war. The Templars come around trying to get mages in Grey Warden territory and they'll be killed to the man.

The Wardens NEED mages for the Joining.

[Rinshikai10]

Not to mention that the Anderfels has Darkspawn to worry about. Which IMHO would make the Mages more of an asset then the Templars. Plus in WOT it talks about the warden leader being an outspoken critic of the status quo and the monarchy. Giving the impression the Order is looking to change things.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 26 mai 2013 - 05:24 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

Regarding Lady Harimann i don't remember there being any dialogue that stated that she became a mage from dealing with Allure only that Allure granted her more power to take Starkhaven's throne?

Her daughter tells you this.  It was the fact that Lady Harriman wasn't a mage and had no trace of magic in her blood that gave her the confidence to deal with a demon.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

Bleachrude wrote...

The Anderfels are noted to be even more pro-Chantry than even Orlais...no chance of the anderfels being symapthetic to the mages IMO.

Actually that works against the templars. The chantry will no doubt scream on top of its lungs that the templars have betrayed them. Combine this with the fact that the grey wardens vouch for the mages (they need mages after all) the templars will be branded as heretics/

[Medhia Nox]

@IanPolaris: But using a small cadre of heavily sanctioned mages is far different than harboring an entire army of rebels.

Inviting one rebel mage into your kingdom currently invites an entire war. The mages aren't just rebelling against the Templars - they're rebelling from an entire social structure set in place to govern their actions. Bringing in these new rogue elements without new laws to control them (in the way all human beings - even real world modern ones - are controlled) is horrible governance.

I could have seen mages hired by governments in a reformed Circle - but that isn't going to happen now.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 27 mai 2013 - 02:42 .

[KiwiQuiche]

I'm willing to bet a lot of the more...extreme personalities with the mages will go to Tevinter- either to join or ask for help. Tevinter is very dog-eat-dog though, so I would reckon only the most powerful will get to Tevinter in one piece. The Magisters themselves I wouldn't put it past them to have a go at Orlais and the like while this whole thing is exploding.

[KiwiQuiche]

DKJaigen wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

The Anderfels are noted to be even more pro-Chantry than even Orlais...no chance of the anderfels being symapthetic to the mages IMO.

Actually that works against the templars. The chantry will no doubt scream on top of its lungs that the templars have betrayed them. Combine this with the fact that the grey wardens vouch for the mages (they need mages after all) the templars will be branded as heretics/

I never actually put much thought into that, you are very right. The Templars are rejecting the Chantry, so I wouldn't put it past the Chantry trying to call an Exalted March on them for this betrayal; but who will force this if the Templars are giving a big FU to the church?

[IanPolaris]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@IanPolaris: But using a small cadre of heavily sanctioned mages is far different than harboring an entire army of rebels.

Inviting one rebel mage into your kingdom currently invites an entire war. The mages aren't just rebelling against the Templars - they're rebelling from an entire social structure set in place to govern their actions. Bringing in these new rogue elements without new laws to control them (in the way all human beings - even real world modern ones - are controlled) is horrible governance.

I could have seen mages hired by governments in a reformed Circle - but that isn't going to happen now.

Actually it's the Templars that are in open revolt against the Chantry.  In theory the Circle was never part of the Chantry.  It may seem like a threadbare theory to you, but such things matter when it comes to who is "endangering the social order" and who isn't.  I also note that the Chantry is also going to be railing against the Templars as rebels which undercuts a lot of the arguments that would otherwise be presented against mages.

Having an entire population at your nation's disposal that's trained in magic has some enormous positive benefits both economically and militarily and almost every noble can see it (and if they can't then the examples of those that can....such as Fereldan) will force their hand.  When the organization that speaks out against the mages is in open rebellion, that voice against the mages looses a lot of credibility.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I'm willing to bet a lot of the more...extreme personalities with the mages will go to Tevinter- either to join or ask for help. Tevinter is very dog-eat-dog though, so I would reckon only the most powerful will get to Tevinter in one piece. The Magisters themselves I wouldn't put it past them to have a go at Orlais and the like while this whole thing is exploding.

I actually wouldn't put it past Tevinter (or at least some of the Magisters in the Tevinter Senate) to covertly help the Templars actually.  Tevinter has a nice thing going as the one nation that fully incorporates magic.  I don't think Tevinter wants other nations in magical competition with itself.  Helping the Templars would be a cheap, easy, and completely deniable way to keep the Andrastian nations destabilized.

-Polaris

[KiwiQuiche]

IanPolaris wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I'm willing to bet a lot of the more...extreme personalities with the mages will go to Tevinter- either to join or ask for help. Tevinter is very dog-eat-dog though, so I would reckon only the most powerful will get to Tevinter in one piece. The Magisters themselves I wouldn't put it past them to have a go at Orlais and the like while this whole thing is exploding.

I actually wouldn't put it past Tevinter (or at least some of the Magisters in the Tevinter Senate) to covertly help the Templars actually.  Tevinter has a nice thing going as the one nation that fully incorporates magic.  I don't think Tevinter wants other nations in magical competition with itself.  Helping the Templars would be a cheap, easy, and completely deniable way to keep the Andrastian nations destabilized.

-Polaris

I doubt that personally; Better to expand the Imperium and reclaim that lost land than help mage hunters or the soldiers of a Chantry who is ready to do a March on them.

[The Hierophant]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I'm willing to bet a lot of the more...extreme personalities with the mages will go to Tevinter- either to join or ask for help. Tevinter is very dog-eat-dog though, so I would reckon only the most powerful will get to Tevinter in one piece. The Magisters themselves I wouldn't put it past them to have a go at Orlais and the like while this whole thing is exploding.

I actually wouldn't put it past Tevinter (or at least some of the Magisters in the Tevinter Senate) to covertly help the Templars actually.  Tevinter has a nice thing going as the one nation that fully incorporates magic.  I don't think Tevinter wants other nations in magical competition with itself.  Helping the Templars would be a cheap, easy, and completely deniable way to keep the Andrastian nations destabilized.

-Polaris

I doubt that personally; Better to expand the Imperium and reclaim that lost land than help mage hunters or the soldiers of a Chantry who is ready to do a March on them.

I agree with Polaris as the Chantry's & Templar's restriction of magic in their territories reduces the potential advancements mages could achieve and use to combat the Magisters in a potential war. Plus Tevinter has it's hands full with the Qunari.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 27 mai 2013 - 06:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Willowhugger wrote...
Which doesn't affect the mages at all.  Again, the Chantry is neutral in the war. The Templars come around trying to get mages in Grey Warden territory and they'll be killed to the man.

The Wardens NEED mages for the Joining.

The joinign can happen in one of two ways:
- drink archdemon blood
- drink magicly-boosted tainted blood

So mages are not technicly needed. And even if they were, that still wouldn't stop the wardens from siding against the mages, as mages aren't a single, unified force and there would always be those willing to work with the Wardens.
And if the mages loose, it's back to the way it was anyway.

The wardens loose nothing really.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Wardens gain nothing from joinning the conflict, and they lose nothing by remaining neutral. Odds are they will remain neutral, especially since losing the conflict would jeopardize their main objective.

Also the mages don't really do anyhting about the blood in the Joinning Ritual, World of Thedas says that all they do, is they make it easier for the recruit to actually drink the blood.

[azarhal]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Wardens gain nothing from joinning the conflict, and they lose nothing by remaining neutral. Odds are they will remain neutral, especially since losing the conflict would jeopardize their main objective.

The Wardens might not want to join the conflict, but it doesn't mean they won't be forced to.

Going by DA:O/DA:A, the Templars hate the fact that Wardens can recruit mages. I can see them forcing the issue to get back "their" mages now that they dumped the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why would the Templars try and do that? The Templars are fully aware, that all they would gain from that, would be one more enemy, and a formidable one at that. The Templars would gain nothing from antagonizing the Wardens, and would only add to their enemies' strength.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Templars try and do that? The Templars are fully aware, that all they would gain from that, would be one more enemy, and a formidable one at that. The Templars would gain nothing from antagonizing the Wardens, and would only add to their enemies' strength.

The Templars have been antagonizing the Wardens for centuries over mages and the Warden allowance of bloodmagic (as well as the fact that Warden Mages aren't legally part of the Circle or Chantry).  See Ryloc.  The thing that held the Templars back was the Chantry.  With Chantry oversight gone, and given how...emotional...Lambert is over this, I can and expect the Templars to provoke the Wardens over this issue.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

If you want to dismiss the fact that Wardens are severely pro-Chantry and abide by Chantry laws and restrict their mage recruitment to not upset them, I'm ninety-percent sure the Templar don't care and the Wardens wouldn't intervene.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 27 mai 2013 - 07:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you want to dismiss the fact that Wardens are severely pro-Chantry and abide by Chantry laws and restrict their mage recruitment to not upset them, I'm ninety-percent sure the Templar don't care and the Wardens wouldn't intervene.

I am not dismissing them.  What I and others are saying is that it doesn't prove what you think it does.  In this case the TEMPLARS are the heretics and rebels not the mages, and helping the mages could be considered pro-Chantry from a certain PoV.  Honestly rebelling against the Chantry was one of the worst mistakes the Templars could have made.

-Poalris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars are not "heretics", they still follow the Chant of Light, they are just of a different opinion on how to handle mages. There are no religious schism, but more of a idealogical one.

Furthermore, the Templars as a whole have NOT been antagonizing the Grey Wardens, some individual Templars might ahve, but not the Order as a whole. The Templars stand to gain nothing by going to war with the Wardens, and as such, wont do it.

[The Hierophant]

If the Wardens intervene it could send a wrong message to the rulers of the individual kingdoms and hurt their rep like what Sophia Dryden did two centuries ago with Ferelden.

Plus the Templars rebelling is subjective as their only contractual obligation in their partnership with the Chantry (Neverran Accord), was the containment and supervision of mages. Once the mages left the Templars were out of a job.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are not "heretics", they still follow the Chant of Light, they are just of a different opinion on how to handle mages. There are no religious schism, but more of a idealogical one.

What do you think the definition of Heretic is?  A Heretic is one who claims to follow a given religion but no longer agrees with the orthodoxy of that religion.  Since Templars are rejecting the current orthodoxy on magic coming from the Divine, that makes them Heretics by definition.

Furthermore, the Templars as a whole have NOT been antagonizing the Grey Wardens, some individual Templars might ahve, but not the Order as a whole. The Templars stand to gain nothing by going to war with the Wardens, and as such, wont do it.

The Templars have been chomping at the bit and very unhappy about Grey Warden mages the entire series.  Only the Chantry's agreement with the Wardens have kept the Templars in check....and sometimes not always then (see Ryloc).  A lot of Templars insist that their authority over magic supercedes that of the Wardens, and those hardliners are now in charge of the Templars.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

If the Wardens intervene it could send a wrong message to the rulers of the individual kingdoms and hurt their rep like what Sophia Dryden did two centuries ago with Ferelden.

That depends on how it happens.  If the Wardens overtly take sides without provocation, then yes.  However, if the Templars make a move against Grey Warden Mages, then no.  I can easily see the Templars freed from Templar oversight doing a "long overdue" housecleaning of Warden Mages.  If that happens, expect the Wardens to react....badly.

Plus the Templars rebelling is subjective as their only contractual obligation in their partnership with the Chantry (Neverran Accord), was the containment and supervision of mages. Once the mages left the Templars were out of a job.

The mages leaving doesn't invalidate the Nevarran accord.  The Mages under that accord always had the technical right to leave chantry oversight.  It simply wasn't done.  The Templars, however, have chosen open revolt against the Chantry.  Big Difference.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are not "heretics", they still follow the Chant of Light, they are just of a different opinion on how to handle mages. There are no religious schism, but more of a idealogical one.

What do you think the definition of Heretic is?  A Heretic is one who claims to follow a given religion but no longer agrees with the orthodoxy of that religion.  Since Templars are rejecting the current orthodoxy on magic coming from the Divine, that makes them Heretics by definition.

Lambart voiding the Neverran Accord is not in conflict with the Chant of Light. Justinia the V distracting Lambart while Leliana jail breaks the mages who in turn kill the Templar guards is a betrayal of the Nevarran Accord, as the only obligation the Templars had towards the Chantry (Neverran Accord) is the containment and supervision of mages.

The Templars would be heretics if their views conflicts with the CoL not Justinia's political alliance.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 27 mai 2013 - 10:27 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are not "heretics", they still follow the Chant of Light, they are just of a different opinion on how to handle mages. There are no religious schism, but more of a idealogical one.

What do you think the definition of Heretic is?  A Heretic is one who claims to follow a given religion but no longer agrees with the orthodoxy of that religion.  Since Templars are rejecting the current orthodoxy on magic coming from the Divine, that makes them Heretics by definition.

Lambart voiding the Neverran Accord is not in conflict with the Chant of Light. Justinia the V distracting Lambart while Leliana jail breaks the mages who in turn kill the Templar guards is a betrayal of the Nevarran Accord, as the only obligation the Templars had towards the Chantry (Neverran Accord) is the containment and supervision of mages.

The Templars would be heretics if their views conflicts with the CoL not Justinia's political alliance.

The CoL is what Justina says it is.  The Templars are suposed to be subservient to the Chantry.  They chose to rebel and broke their word.  That makes them Heretics.  If the Divine says the Templars are heretics then, they are heretics (and yes this has been done before both IRL and in Thedas).  The Templars under the Nevarran accord were responsible for the containment and supervision of mages under Chantry oversight and the Grand Clerics (and Divine obviously) always had veto power (see Right of Annulment).

So, the Templars have in fact made themselves heretics.  Certainly that's how the Chantry is going to paint them.

-Polaris